Case necks: Lubed or Dry?

[Grump]

When I started shooting HP, I was using an inherited can thingy to moly-lube all casenecks before sizing. Left the stuff in and fired away. It was an M1 Garand, so MOA was about all it could ever do anyway.

I've left Dillon's lanolin lube in the necks, and now Hornady One Shot. In the interests of uniformity, I've been making sure the lube was all around, not just on one side of the inside. No patience for that neck brushing thing recommended in some load books.

Now, I'd never seen many reports of velocity SDs below 12 or so until I got into these UNK exercises and reading the posts here on the Hide. My SDs with weighed charges are still nearer to 20 than to 10, and ESs are rarely below 40. This is over three rifles, several bullet brands, a half-dozen powders, and three primers including FGMM.

One of my batches of brass has also had the flasholes deburred with the Sinclair tool.

???Suggestions? Should I run the casenecks dry?

Thanks!

 

[ChrisGarrett]

Re: Case necks: Lubed or Dry?

If you're shooting out of a bolt gun and NOT dropping the cases on the ground, remove the expander ball and size normally. You then don't have to lube the inside of the necks.

If your neck mouths are getting dinged in, ah la an AR-15, you need to lube the inside of those necks due to using the expander ball, but otherwise, dispatch with the expander ball and don't lube the inside of the mouths.

I just resized 500 223 cases fired out of an AR-15 and some mouths were dinged in, so I used the expander ball on all of them and used Hornady One Shot for the first time ever and doused the insides just to be sure and while some creaked a bit during sizing, I NEVER stuck a case, so yippe for me.

If using One Shot, douse them really, really well and wait at least a minute or two, before sizing them. Also, spray some One Shot into your already clean sizing die. Many, many people have stuck cases in dies using One Shot due to NOT waiting that minute or two.

If you don't have to use an expander ball on the necks, don't. It saves on stretching them.

Chris

 

[Downzero]

Re: Case necks: Lubed or Dry?

I've stuck multiple cases AND destroyed a perfectly good sizing die by using one shot.

I'd never use that crap again.

 

[ChrisGarrett]

Re: Case necks: Lubed or Dry?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Downzero</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I've stuck multiple cases AND destroyed a perfectly good sizing die by using one shot.

I'd never use that crap again. </div></div>

I hear you and you're by no means alone. One evidently has to follow the one minute rule, or greater and squirt some of it up into the die to make it work well, no doubt.

As I said above, I agonized over using it, but it worked well for me doing those 500+ 223 cases and it wiped off well with a damp rag and I didn't have to tumble them clean and load up my media in the process. I'll be honest, it doesn't go a long way, can wise, but it worked well enough.

The only two cases I've ever stuck in 14 years, were 308s using old Dillon spray lube and they were back to back w/i 10 minutes of each other, so your mileage may vary.

Personally, I prefer RCBS Case Lube II and the standard lube pad. Never had a stuck case with that combo and I've done literally thousands with that method. It wipes off easily enough, but is a bit slower to process large quantities and with dinged in mouths, one has to lube the inside of the necks, when using an expander ball, which means washing them out with water, thereby requiring them to air dry.

Chris

 

[Victor N TN]

Re: Case necks: Lubed or Dry?

If you want to use an expander ball, get a carbide one. It doesn't use any lube at all on the inside. Are you using a bore brush to remove the carbon from the fired case necks?

Getting LOW Standard Deviations on a chrono means you need a decent chronograph to start with. Don't expect single number SDs with a Shooting Chrony of any model. If your chronograph is capable of distinguishing speeds of that difference, look at the small details. Brass all done the same way, primers of a decent lot (match if available), let the powder flow into the brass SLOWLY so that it "stacks" itself in the case. Just dumping it in won't get you where you want to go. "Ball" powder like Winchester doesn't lend itself to single digit SDs. It uses graphite layers to control the burn rate instead of kernel size and exposed surface size. This type of powder doesn't lend itself to single digit smooth burn rates. It meters really good through almost all powder measures and works very good for bulk work where quantity is prefered over quality. But cleanliness and accuracy are the trade offs.

Clean all the cases good on the inside case neck
Deburr the flash holes
Use powder from the same can / keg
Let the powder in slowly
Use fresh match grade primers from the same box / carton
Have the same neck tension and seating length.
Use either match grade custom bullets or Bergers

Following these simple steps has kept my Standard Deviation numbers down more than anything else. If nothing else, just give these steps a try for 30 to 40 rounds and shoot them over your chronograph. If your chronograph isn't a higher end model, ask a friend to shoot over his.

EDITED to add: For match brass I use Imperial Sizing Wax alone and wipe each case off with a shop rag wet with lighter fluid to remove the wax. For high volume numbers I use the Dillon spray.

Good luck. I hope you get where you want to be.

 

[Scimitar]

Re: Case necks: Lubed or Dry?

I use Hornady one shot with no problems. I put the cases in a
large ziploc and spray it realy well. I close the bag, roll
the cases around, open and spray again. I sit it on the bench
and find something else to do for a few minutes and then size
them. If I pick one up while sizing that I can feel has no wax
on it, I just manually wipe on some Imperial that I leave next
to the press. I tumble after sizing. With it I've never got to
much lube inside the die and put dents in the shoulder like I
sometimes do with RCBS case lube. Neither way is infallible.
I don't leave any lube on the cases when I put in powder and a bullet.

 

[Grump]

Re: Case necks: Lubed or Dry?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Are you using a bore brush to remove the carbon from the fired case necks? </div></div>

No. When I don't tumble, the carbon is minimal and very uniform. When I do tumble, it just ain't there.

 

[Victor N TN]

Re: Case necks: Lubed or Dry?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Grump</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Are you using a bore brush to remove the carbon from the fired case necks? </div></div>

No. When I don't tumble, the carbon is minimal and very uniform. When I do tumble, it just ain't there. </div></div>

Variations in the thickness of the carbon left in the case necks is one of the little details that will come back to bite you in the butt later if you leave it alone. I use a bore brush of the same caliber in a RCBS style screwdriver handle. One push in and one pull out, twisting it as it goes both ways. Almost all the time one cycle with the brush takes care of it. I do that BEFORE tumbling. (I don't always tumble match brass. I clean the cases with a cloth wet with lighter fluid after twisting the neck & shoulder in a small piece of 4/0 steel wool. I DO always tumble the higher quantity brass, 30 carbine, 30/30, 223 etc...)

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: Case necks: Lubed or Dry?

Just curious. Isn't the carbon fouling in the necks simply a deposit of unburnt graphite from the kernel coatings? It would seem to me that if it were left undisturbed, it would serve fairly well as a dry lubricant all by itself.

Greg

 

[Joe-n-TX]

Re: Case necks: Lubed or Dry?

Lube

I'm way new to reloading.... But, I've use One Shot without any stuck cases so far. I follow the instruction and spray at a 45* angle getting the case and the inside of of the neck. Really quick and easy.

 

[BOLTRIPPER]

Re: Case necks: Lubed or Dry?

imperial sizing wax, just like the brylcream every so often....and a floor model drill press w/nylon cleaning brush chucked up,,,,being fed steel wool........all cases blown clear w/ compressed air....

 

[myerfire]

Re: Case necks: Lubed or Dry?

I usually don't use lube when neck sizing. I use Redding neck sizer with micrometer top or Wilson neck die. I do pull the bushing out every now and then and chuck up a bore mop with some Flitz on it and polish the bushing so it looks like chrome. Never had a problem.
myerfire

 

[memilanuk]

Re: Case necks: Lubed or Dry?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Greg Langelius *</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Just curious. Isn't the carbon fouling in the necks simply a deposit of unburnt graphite from the kernel coatings? It would seem to me that if it were left undisturbed, it would serve fairly well as a dry lubricant all by itself.
</div></div>

Not really. With a sensitive enough press, you can easily feel the difference between a clean neck and one left untouched when seating bullets.

For a while I was using a set of Wilson hand dies in a RW Hart arbor press for my 6mm BR and .308 Win rounds. When seating bullets I could feel a distinct 'pop' as the bullet seated. It had me kind of concerned, but the gun seemed to shoot okay. At some point I picked up a neck brush that I had lying in the reloading tool box to clean the necks on a few cases that I had used for water capacity testing - they'd acquired a nice green hue on the inside of the necks after drying. After brushing, the bullets just slid in smooth as silk, as compared to the normal 'pop'. Had to try that one a few more times just to prove it to myself, but it was definitely reproducible. Same thing can be felt with my Co-Ax press, but the amount of leverage involved tends to mask it unless you go slow and know what to look for. If you do most of your loading on a 550 (seem to recall something about that)... then I doubt you'd ever feel or notice it; just too much stuff going on at once.

 

[GySgtMUSMC]

Re: Case necks: Lubed or Dry?

I just roll mine around on the lube tray with Dillons lube and have had no issues from 5.56, 308 or 30-06. I am not doing any precision reloading so I dont know if that would play a role.

 

[JLM]

Re: Case necks: Lubed or Dry?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BOLTRIPPER</div><div class="ubbcode-body">imperial sizing wax, just like the brylcream every so often....and a floor model drill press w/nylon cleaning brush chucked up,,,,being fed steel wool........all cases blown clear w/ compressed air.... </div></div>

I do a variation of what BR does, chuck up a borebrush in a power screwdriver and wrap it with 0000 steel wool. Run it in the necks of fired cases to get the gunk out and get them nice and slick.

 

[Grump]

Re: Case necks: Lubed or Dry?

No A/B testing on accuracy of lubed vs. cleaned back out?

Based on handle/ram pressure needed to seat the bullets, my current approach of using One Shot outside and inside at least 2/3 of the neck should be yielding pretty consistent bullet pull weights.

I'm still in load development for a match Saturday, so I'm not yet in a position to test it myself...if/when I do, I *will* report.

 

[Queequeg]

Re: Case necks: Lubed or Dry?

I've never done any kind of inside the neck lube prior to seating bullets. Any unequivocal detriment to accuracy or case life from this ommission?

The brass I've tracked most carefully is full length resized, principally for one .308 but potentially available for use in two others. Oldest generation is at 10 firings with no visible stresses though they are stiffer to resize; Annealing is in their future!

 

[former naval person]

Re: Case necks: Lubed or Dry?

Dry lube inside my case necks decreases my runout and my extreme spreads. Also, I feel that it decreases the bullet to neck bonding that occurs with ageing of the ammo, thereby letting me load a year or so in advance without worrying about as much variance.

 

[Queequeg]

Re: Case necks: Lubed or Dry?

What dry lube do you use and how do you apply it?

 

[rundm]

Re: Case necks: Lubed or Dry?

I have started to use the hornady carbide expander ball in my resizer to keep away from having to inside lube the neck. works for me. I am not doing any match loading, just having fun at the range.

 

[Queequeg]

Re: Case necks: Lubed or Dry?

As this is case necks we're talking about I hope this isn't hijacking:

I have mostly Dillon die sets. Are their expanders carbide?

 

[Two Shoes]

Re: Case necks: Lubed or Dry?

+1, Chris, you need to wait for it to basically DRY.

 

[Two Shoes]

Re: Case necks: Lubed or Dry?

I have tried the Carbide, did not work for me, grabbed the necks just as bad.

 

[Two Shoes]

Re: Case necks: Lubed or Dry?

Also,taking expander off and FLRS brass, has always led to WAY to small I.D.'s.
So, that's why I went to Bushing dies..........

 

[sobrbiker883]

Re: Case necks: Lubed or Dry?

I'm cheap. I use a Lee Collet neck sizing die. No lube, minimal prep, and I can hit moa sized targets <span style="font-style: italic">all day long if I do my part</span> (snicker snicker for my favorite web phrases!).

I'm really trying to cut down on chasing the minutae of reloading and focusing more on the weakest link in my shooting system-me.

When I FL size I put a bunch of brass in a big ziploc, spray one shot for a count of three, roll cases around in bag, repeat. They sit while I do something else for a minute or two and then I size. Haven't destroyed a case or die yet.

 

[mavrick10_2000]

Re: Case necks: Lubed or Dry?

After the first firing on virgin brass I neck size only. I use dry lube for neck sizing (Ground Mica Powder).

 

[former naval person]

Re: Case necks: Lubed or Dry?

Queequeg: I use a graphite in alchohol lube I got from a Michigan supplier...however, I have found that a suspension of HxBN in alcohol works just as well. A half teaspoon of HxBN and a ounce of SOLOX in a dispenser bottle...a drop or so on a Q-Tip and run it in an out of about 10 cases...rewet the Q-Tip and repeat. Shake up the dispenser bottle from time to time...it tends to settle out. JMHO

 

[Grump]

Re: Case necks: Lubed or Dry?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: former naval person</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Queequeg: I use a graphite in alchohol lube I got from a Michigan supplier...however, I have found that a suspension of HxBN in alcohol works just as well. A half teaspoon of HxBN and a ounce of SOLOX in a dispenser bottle...a drop or so on a Q-Tip and run it in an out of about 10 cases...rewet the Q-Tip and repeat. Shake up the dispenser bottle from time to time...it tends to settle out. JMHO</div></div>

Hmmm.... Isn't Hornady One-Shot case lube mica powder like what mavrick10_2000 mentioned?

I'm wondering if I should get that little can with Moly and swap it out for mica or HxBN. Anyone wanna sell me from 1/2 to 1 oz volume of either stuff? Or your HxBN/SOLOX mix (1 oz liquid would last a longish time, right?)

Or maybe I just need to be consistent with my One Shot in the necks...

 

[Queequeg]

Re: Case necks: Lubed or Dry?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: former naval person</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Queequeg: I use a graphite in alchohol lube I got from a Michigan supplier...however, I have found that a suspension of HxBN in alcohol works just as well. A half teaspoon of HxBN and a ounce of SOLOX in a dispenser bottle...a drop or so on a Q-Tip and run it in an out of about 10 cases...rewet the Q-Tip and repeat. Shake up the dispenser bottle from time to time...it tends to settle out. JMHO </div></div>

FNP,

HxBN and SOLOX are available from what source? This is applied prior to resizing or after priming/ before powder charging?

Thank you.

 

[JLM]

Re: Case necks: Lubed or Dry?

Anyone tried the "Imperial Application Media" and furthermore do you know what's IN it?

 

[kombayotch]

Re: Case necks: Lubed or Dry?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Grump</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I've left Dillon's lanolin lube in the necks, and now Hornady One Shot. In the interests of uniformity, I've been making sure the lube was all around, not just on one side of the inside.</div></div>

If you're getting a lot inside the case, it will affect the burn rate regardless of what the manufacturer claims. A granule of powder that is coated in lube will ignite differently than one that is not.

 

[427Cobra]

Re: Case necks: Lubed or Dry?

SOLOX is Denatured Ethyl Alcohol.

 

[Grump]

Re: Case necks: Lubed or Dry?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kombayotch</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Grump</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I've left Dillon's lanolin lube in the necks, and now Hornady One Shot. In the interests of uniformity, I've been making sure the lube was all around, not just on one side of the inside.</div></div>

If you're getting a lot inside the case, it will affect the burn rate regardless of what the manufacturer claims. A granule of powder that is coated in lube will ignite differently than one that is not.</div></div>

The Hornady stuff won't coat the powder because it is dry before I resize. Then it's expanded. THEN it's charged. Granules never stick to the neck, so I really doubt that any amount to measurably affect burn is getting transferred to the powder.

It ain't DNA or viral contamination by any stretch of the imagination.

However, the opposite is one of the reasons why I didn't go back to the Dillon lube.

 

[kombayotch]

Re: Case necks: Lubed or Dry?

It dries in the neck, but if a ton of it goes inside, you do get drips on the underside of the shoulder or down the inner wall of the case.

Charge a few cases and then dump the powder out. If it all comes out, then yeah, not an issue. But, if there are globs of powder stuck to the walls of the case, you may want to try applying it differently to avoid that.

 

[Joe-n-TX]

Re: Case necks: Lubed or Dry?

I use one shot. The first time i sized and primed in one sitting I realized powder was sticking to the neck. Now I either ream with a bore mop or prime the next day.