Fieldcraft CB radios more secure than HAM?

[...]

so i was thinking about comms today as i often do, and i was thinking about the potential in switching from HAM back to CB.

without a doubt HAM radio (at least Baofengs) have become fairly common place, and as evidence by CHAZ, it seems the antifa types are using them as well.

and this had me wondering about the viability of using a, for lack of a better word, "obsolescent" form of communication....something that is still technologically viable.. ...but perhaps less common, and less apt to be picked up by a no-good-nick...

the problem with the baofengs is they receive FRS/GMRS/Business/ VHF/ UHF bands......really only leaving HF and AM bands (CB)....and seeing as there are no HF handheld units, that really only leave CB

now granted there are no "secure" comms....but am i on to something, or have i just had too much to drink tonight?

 

[W54/XM-388]

I don't think there would be any "security" advantage to CB bands over HAM bands.

There are lots of ways to make your HAM radio band transmissions rather difficult for your average ANTIFA goon to listen in to, while still being all legit legally.

Talk to Gunfighter about it, he can give you all the details.

 

[Bolo]

If you can find a set of the "illegal" Baofengs (v2) or Moto 7k/8k, you can do an awful lot more than the ones being carted around by those who use Jeff Bezos as their tactical comms supplier.
Heck, even some decent FRS/GMRS radios have audio scrambling, which put them head and shoulders above a CB radio set.

 

[gunsnjeeps]

CB has no encryption, just 40 channels of AM.

FRS/GMRS has privacy codes but they aren't encryption and anyone can pick the same code.

 

[acudaowner]

I would think ham would be better you have a wider range of signals you could talk on that would mean someone else would have to guess really well to scan them all in order to listen in on what you were saying , but unless your talking to someone face to face anyone could listen in on any means that are wire less . and I know nothing about encrypted communications . heck even baby monitors can be hacked , wire less security systems all that stuff is not really safe .

 

[W54/XM-388]

Think about who you are trying to not let listen to your communications as well as if it's something that needs to be permanently kept hidden or not.

Outsmarting your local communists / Antifa folks and other "locals" won't be a big problem.

If you are thinking you are going to hide it from the actual NSA types......... Did you build your own radio from scratch? just for a start.

Gunfighter has put up a lot of good stuff but on the basics, if you employ frequency hopping and swapping emission modes while also making sure the snippets someone may stumble across seem like normal conversation.

That does mean well trained people with good time keeping equipment.

 

[...]

honestly its the antifa types that are my concern....if the alphabet boys are determined, they are gonna find you no matter what you do....

but even with frequency hopping, cant you just as easily find that with a few radios set to scan mode?

 

[W54/XM-388]

honestly its the antifa types that are my concern....if the alphabet boys are determined, they are gonna find you no matter what you do....

but even with frequency hopping, cant you just as easily find that with a few radios set to scan mode?

In that case, the biggest issue would appear to be you don't want them to know in real time what your messages are.
If they figure it out days or weeks later, the information is long stale, especially if you never run the exact same playbook twice.

It all depends on how well you plan and how disciplined your communications are.
It's not like running a simple police scanner, you have a huge range of frequencies that are in use, again they have to determine which one is you out of a lot of others, talking, also they have to be able to look at many different emission modes and encoding, once again finding your stuff among all the other stuff.

If done right it's going to be something very hard to near impossible for the Antifa types and 4chan types to keep a handle on in real time unless you have a traitor in your group.

Then if once again you add in that all your messages are not exactly plain speak..

Something also however to keep in mind, It takes very little cost to built a very effective local area wide RF interference device that will make almost anything RF not communicate worth a hoot. A city block or two can easily be turned into a dead zone.

 

[...]

Something also however to keep in mind, It takes very little cost to built a very effective local area wide RF interference device that will make almost anything RF not communicate worth a hoot. A city block or two can easily be turned into a dead zone.

would you be able to PM me any info you have on this subject?

 

[respiegel]

There are off the shelf jammers that will do that for less than $100. Basically if you transmit random noise and saturate any frequency band of interest, the SNR drops to the point that it is very difficult to recover any signal from the mess.

would you be able to PM me any info you have on this subject?

 

[earthtrekker1775]

If you are using electronic comms, always assume you are on an unsecured channel. If you want (and you should) opsec/comsec, devise brevity codes that are meaningless to anyone not involved and change them often. Also, basic fieldcraf that relies on no electronics and is invisible/indecipherable to casual or trained obsevers can save your life.

 

[W54/XM-388]

would you be able to PM me any info you have on this subject?

If you weren't aware of the jamming, there is an entire world of crazy stuff that RF signals can do such as:

RF Interference Like You’ve Never Seen Before

A wireless camera that can drain a car’s battery from a distance? I thought I’d seen it all, but that? Yep.

www.networkworld.com

Stuff like that can be reproduced and done on purpose.....

 

[Nik H]

The reality is that you shouldn't count on the method of transmission to provide your security. Any radio transmission can be compromised using a variety of methods that other have mentioned.

Your security is only as strong as the encryption you use prior to transmitting your data.

Voice comms using simple AM modulation can always be compromised. Encryption much like a cell phone does it is the only way to provide privacy. Data is much easier. The data can be encrypted using a variety of means. Once encrypted, you can transmit it via any convenient method. It then matters little should your message be intercepted.

 

[E-Tool]

One thing to consider is transmit with the he lowest power needed to make contact. Less likely that your signal over penetrates beyond the radius to whom you are communicating.

You can get P25 encrypted Motorola radios, it’s not easy but it can be done.

 

[respiegel]

Cell phones really do offer the best solution for secure communications. They can be jammed, but do offer a really broad band software defined radio that makes that harder and harder to do with a mobile unit with each new revision. The software support is unreal, how many free end to end encrypted applications are there to choose from? Let's not forget that everybody has a cell phone, and everybody is always using their cellphones, you might be all 007 talking into an earpiece, but it will standout on security cameras.

For low bandwidth communications over a known fixed area the LoRa modules offer a low cost and low power solution, but you'd need to work the software to get them into something even moderately secure and reliable.

 

[W54/XM-388]

Cell phones really do offer the best solution for secure communications. They can be jammed, but do offer a really broad band software defined radio that makes that harder and harder to do with a mobile unit with each new revision. The software support is unreal, how many free end to end encrypted applications are there to choose from? Let's not forget that everybody has a cell phone, and everybody is always using their cellphones, you might be all 007 talking into an earpiece, but it will standout on security cameras.

For low bandwidth communications over a known fixed area the LoRa modules offer a low cost and low power solution, but you'd need to work the software to get them into something even moderately secure and reliable.

Most of those Cellphone "end to end encryption" apps are worthless if the fed government guys want in, they only protect you from casual folks reading stuff, most also have the encryption keys stored on some companies server, so just keep that in mind. Facebook announced when they bought Whatsapp that they were going to eventually put in "in app content filtering", that would of course send "objectionable" stuff to the mothership for "review"....

If you are not bitching about what a pain it is to generate, store and share your encryption keys, you are probably not doing it right.

However IF your goal is to make it not possible for your local ANTIFA folks to read what you are saying, they would be a possibility with TONS of caveats.

ONE important point however, IF you decide to try using that system, make sure whatever app you are using is able to send all the messages by standard SMS text blocks only, because if you get in a big crowded area, there is a VERY good possibility the data bandwidth will be all used up and calls as well as any data stuff may or may not go through, but standard SMS text blocks tend to get through when nothing else will.

 

[Nik H]

There is only one encryption scheme that is unbreakable and that is called a OTP.

It can still be compromised through poor handling by the humans.

I posted an article that was fairly well written here in the resources section

 

[respiegel]

Yes, there are issues with all forms of encryption, either on the front end or the back end something can go wrong, but depending on the application and the attacker it is a useful tool to keep motivated non-state actors in the dark as to near term communications. It is also worth mentioning that if any encryption key can be compromised with enough CPU resources and a little AI.
Practically speaking phones and Signal are going to get you most of the way there without standing out in a crowd which i feel is a more credible threat with the mob justice/anarchist types.
Electronic defenses are like adding security pins to locks, good idea but the bad guys are just going to kick the door in...

 

[Gunfighter14e2]

Using all the CPU you want an all the AI as well, De-code the following in a timely manner that was sent via a SSTV emission last month They are in order of meaning. When complicated draws unwanted attention, change the game. Much like a numbers station, by the time the message is decoded, it's too late. Granted this may be too slow for a quick response time line, but there are similar methods even if you're only using a CB to provide a rapid direction change. Most people never think out of the box, plus the higher the tech the more back doors that are installed during mfg'ing. Don't play their game,...ever,... as you will lose every time. There are tons of way to signal your troops w/o moving any electrons. Think out of the box. Many a war was fought prior to radio or even CW for that matter.

 

[Alpine 338]

The chair is against the wall, John has a long mustache.

 

[zeldaella]

what an interesting question! Does anyone know a good CB radio or ham radio? Uniden PRO520XL Pro is so legendary, right? I still want to find another one..

 

[Alpine 338]

Not that it's authorized, but you can aquire a radio through mail order that operates on both the 10-Meter Amateur Band, and the 11-Meter CB band. Google will locate them for you. Not sure if they are still being manufactured, but the President (Uniden) Lincoln was a legendary radio a couple decades ago. You could probably find a used one on eBay?

 

[4X4Dad]

If you weren't aware of the jamming, there is an entire world of crazy stuff that RF signals can do such as:

RF Interference Like You’ve Never Seen Before

A wireless camera that can drain a car’s battery from a distance? I thought I’d seen it all, but that? Yep.

www.networkworld.com

Stuff like that can be reproduced and done on purpose.....

Good read .

 

[stefan73]

A good resource. I would call him. https://www.bellscb.com/

 

[240nmc]

Why did I read this thread.....

now I have two BF UV-5R MK5s, submitted application for a ZA GMRS license, and bought a Technicians license study manual.... brings back SW radio listening memories.... remember embassys sending out tone messages... back in the day...

 

[Hobo Hilton]

The security of a CB is that it does not broadcast very far. For close in comms, it works well and the weak signal can't be intercepted very far away. Just depends how far you want to reach out.

NC Scout over at American Parisian runs some good classes.

Brushbeater Scout, RTO / Advanced RTO and SIGINT Course Review, by Hunter

I’m honored to have yet another review of the courses out West. ‘Hunter’ bore with me for a LONG time out there, and it was an incredible experience to be able to share that time …

www.americanpartisan.org

RTO WY Course Review, by Dakar - American Partisan

Coming by way of a student I’ll simply refer to […]

www.americanpartisan.org

EchoCharlie Sends: The military renaissance in high frequency communications - American Partisan

Echo Charlie sent the following in regarding the re-emphasis on […]

www.americanpartisan.org

 

[W54/XM-388]

The security of a CB is that it does not broadcast very far. For close in comms, it works well and the weak signal can't be intercepted very far away. Just depends how far you want to reach out.

Seems like slightly flawed logic on that.
The License required bands run a huge range from get around the world wavelengths to very short range wavelengths.
Then you decide how much transmit power you want to use.

 

[Screehopper]

You also wouldn't want to use a handheld CB radio. Bulky and inefficient. Stick with hamradio then you can utilize a mix of handheld and mobile or base stations depending on the situation.

 

[stefan73]

What about the SMP 818 or the CP200d with voice scramble/compander?

 

[W54/XM-388]

You could also try getting in on this and see how it works:

MILO - The Action Communicator

Speak with friends while you ski, ride or surf. Hands-free, no Wi-Fi or cell signal needed. For adventures on slopes, trails and water.

www.kickstarter.com

 

[Marbles]

I would stick with HAM as you have more options to find a clear channel. Of course encryption is band on HAM, however, if you are in a social melt down situation complying with FCC guidelines is the least of your worries. Of course, you cannot test the capability before hand as that would not be justified. That said, the use of the capability to encrypt is the illegal part, possessing it is not. There are professional radios that support digital encryption and can be bought for HAM uses. You are talking $1000 dollar radios with another $1000 for the programing codec for a just incase situation with a piece of kit you cannot ever test. To me, not worth it.

You can use obscure, open source, digital transmission modes. As the key is publicly available, it is not encryption and is allowed under HAM rules (at least last I checked, verify as you are the one on the hook). This gives a tactically secure encryption, at least the first time you use it. Just depends how long it takes the other guy to figure out what you are doing and what equipment he has at his disposal. I'm not sure if a Baofeng is capable of being programed for those modes however. Using digital will keep most users from listening to your transmission.

Radios that can be modified to transmit on multiple bands are available, but illegal. Per FCC rules the equipment must be licensed for the bands it is used on. A SAR team got in trouble for using HAM radios that where modified to transmit on their assigned channel a while back. This was years ago, so my memory is fuzzy. I believe they where using Icom radios, and Icom exchanged their cheaper HAM radios for professional radios at no cost once the issue became public.