Chambering issue after expander mandrell.

[RTTY]

Hello gentlemen,
after my last shooting session I measured my cases and I find some differences on headspace.
I tested some charges and the headspace are differenti from the low load to the ho load but from 1.4710" to 1.4700"

So I've made a resetting on the Forster FL Bushing sizing die for a 2 thou down from the fired case headspace, assuming that the 1.4710" of the hi loaded case are the start point.

My scheduling are the following:
- Bump the shoulder without the bushing for obtain the 2 thou of headspace (only for One or two case as reference).
Check on the chamber, ok!
- insert the bushing and resize the neck.
Check on the chamber, ok!
The bolt fall down free.
- expand the neck with mandrel.
Check un the chamber, ko!
The bolt don't fall down free, need finger help.

The headspace of the resized case are 1.4690"

I think that the mandrel, when open the neck, open also the apical section of the shoulder and change is angle.

If I think wrong can help me to solve this issue?

Thanks

 

[ShtrRdy]

From my experience using a expander mandrel it doesn't take much force to expand the neck. I doubt the mandrel is pushing the shoulder out.

Are you using the stainless steel pin tumbler to clean cases?

 

[supercorndogs]

What does the neck on a fired case, sized case, and mandreled case measure.

 

[R_A_W]

1.470" HS... is this a .223 Rem? How many firings on the brass?

I'm guessing you have a neck doughnut & the mandrel is pushing it out, preventing the round from properly chambering.

 

[straightshooter1]

1.470" HS... is this a .223 Rem? How many firings on the brass?

I'm guessing you have a neck doughnut & the mandrel is pushing it out, preventing the round from properly chambering.

That's possible. But doesn't quite seem likely since he's using a bushing die and a bushing die doesn't size all the way down to where donuts develop.

I wouldn't think the mandrel would open the neck enough to effect where the bushing die doesn't do any sizing. Therefore, there's no effect on the shoulder or at the neck-shoulder junction. Makes me wonder exactly how consistent he's measuring the neck's OD???

 

[RTTY]

From my experience using a expander mandrel it doesn't take much force to expand the neck. I doubt the mandrel is pushing the shoulder out.

Are you using the stainless steel pin tumbler to clean cases?

Hello, yes but 2 washing past.
For the last 2 cleaning I used corn cob with polish (Frankford Arsenal).

 

[RTTY]

What does the neck on a fired case, sized case, and mandreled case measure.

Outer or inner?

 

[RTTY]

1.470" HS... is this a .223 Rem? How many firings on the brass?

I'm guessing you have a neck doughnut & the mandrel is pushing it out, preventing the round from properly chambering.

No Sorry, 6,5x47 Lapua.
Some firing... 10 plus firing...

It Is possibile, why not...

When I put the mandrel about a the heigth of the neck/shoulder junction I keep some resistance...

Are the doughnut?

 

[RTTY]

That's possible. But doesn't quite seem likely since he's using a bushing die and a bushing die doesn't size all the way down to where donuts develop.

I wouldn't think the mandrel would open the neck enough to effect where the bushing die doesn't do any sizing. Therefore, there's no effect on the shoulder or at the neck-shoulder junction. Makes me wonder exactly how consistent he's measuring the neck's OD???

The first owner of the rifle and the brass has sized it with RCBS FL standard die.

 

[RTTY]

What does the neck on a fired case, sized case, and mandreled case measure.

Fired case:
Inner 0.2650"
Outer 0.2940"

Sized FL (bushing 0.286") case:
Inner 0.2590"
Outer 0.2840" top neck
0.2855'" base neck

Mandreled case:
Inner 0.2620"
Outer 0.2860" top neck
0.2885" base neck

Mic Mitutoyo Absolute AOS

 

[R_A_W]

Mandreled case:
Inner 0.2620"
Outer 0.2860" top neck
0.2885" base neck

0.030” increase is huge, that’s your issue.

It looks like the mandrel die might also flaring your brass neck 0.001”…

Which leads me to believe the mandrel die is seated too far into the press. If so, this may also be partially collapsing the neck, creating the 0.030” bulge.

Are you getting a hard stop on the press ram before it can fully raise?

 

[ShtrRdy]

0.030” increase is huge, that’s your issue.

It looks like the mandrel die might also flaring your brass neck 0.001”…

Which leads me to believe the mandrel die is seated too far into the press. If so, this may also be partially collapsing the neck, creating the 0.030” bulge.

Are you getting a hard stop on the press ram before it can fully raise?

That's 0.003", but still might be a clue.

 

[R_A_W]

Oops. Still working on the coffee.

In that case, I’m leaning towards donut due to brass flow

 

[ShtrRdy]

@R_A_W has a good suggestion. The mandrel die might be installed into the press too far and causing the mandrel die to deform the shoulder.

 

[RTTY]

Some pics:

 

[RTTY]

0.030” increase is huge, that’s your issue.

It looks like the mandrel die might also flaring your brass neck 0.001”…

Which leads me to believe the mandrel die is seated too far into the press. If so, this may also be partially collapsing the neck, creating the 0.030” bulge.

Are you getting a hard stop on the press ram before it can fully raise?

Hi only 0.0025"
I've one 21st century mandrel die with Windows, the case do not break the upper of the die.

 

[supercorndogs]

Is that the inside of the case at the neck shoulder junction?

 

[RTTY]

The photos?
Yes!

 

[R_A_W]

Some pics:

That looks like a donut to me, but it's pretty difficult to tell from those photos. Milling the case in half or cleaning the case down to bare brass would make it easier to see. You can also take something like a paper clip and slide it inside the neck to see if it hangs up or snags, right before the shoulder rather than just sliding past.

In my opinion, the best solution is to buy new brass. How many pieces do you have?

 

[RTTY]

About 90pcs
But find some cases of this caliber are too difficult now.

But I can turn, I've a basic neck turning stuff.
Turning only for remove the donut are possible with a 30º cutter?

 

[R_A_W]

I can't really answer that. Turning just the outside will still leave a bump or ridge on the inside, even if you trim after you've mandrel through it, due to spring back. I would think you need to turn the outside & inside of the neck to completely remove the bump.

 

[Ex E6]

Donuts are caused by neck turning and improper chamber fitting .

Partial Anneal case necks and shoulder, then FL size . MARK a case neck shoulder with marking pen ,chamber insure there are NO issues .

You can then Neck size using mandrel die after firing , Cases which have been partial annealed yield to forming better and will flow smoothly ,providing there's No issue with your chamber fitment .

 

[Ex E6]

About 90pcs
But find some cases of this caliber are too difficult now.

But I can turn, I've a basic neck turning stuff.
Turning only for remove the donut are possible with a 30º cutter?

Turning necks creates donuts ,as it impedes brass flow ,where cutter transitions too the shoulder ,because the cut ceases and no one does a radius taper onto the shoulder with hand turning equipment .

One has to know where to STOP cutting on the neck and a butt load of so called experienced shooters and reloaders DON'T .

 

[straightshooter1]

That looks like a donut to me, but it's pretty difficult to tell from those photos. Milling the case in half or cleaning the case down to bare brass would make it easier to see. You can also take something like a paper clip and slide it inside the neck to see if it hangs up or snags, right before the shoulder rather than just sliding past.

In my opinion, the best solution is to buy new brass. How many pieces do you have?

The best way I found to find out what's going on with the donut is to use pin gauges. I know, few reloaders go to the expense of having pin gauges to take measurements. I did and, for me, I like what I was able to learn by using them.

Running a mandrel through the neck does move the donut to the outside, though less so with work hardened cases from several firings, due to springback.

I've verified this using my pin gauges on my cases that I annealed after every firing. Before running my mandrel through the necks, I ran a pin gauge into the neck to measure the ID of the neck and it wouldn't go past the donut. Measured the ID where the donut was, there was a .0025 difference (these are Lapua cases fired 16 times). After running my mandrel through the neck to get the "neck tension" I'm after, the snug fitting pin gauge would run all the way through the neck with the donut not hindering it at all. The donut had been moved to the outside as a difference in OD could now be measured on the neck at the neck-shoulder junction.

There was a poster who said, emphatically, that the neck wall thickness increases over time as the cases are sized, reloaded and fired. He insisted that if you're one who turns necks, you'll have to turn them again after just a few firings. So, I took those cases that were fired 16 times (which, BTW, the necks had been turned to .014" to start with after the 2nd firing) and measured their thickness. The necks were still measured .014", except where the donut was. After expanding the necks with the mandrel, I turned them again with the cutter still set to give me .014" neck thickness and the cutter didn't remove any material until I got down to the donut. Now there's no donut inside or outside, again testing with pin gauges to see if there's any donut left on the inside.

Let me just point out again that I anneal my brass after every firing, which I've come to see the donuts move to the outside when I run my mandrel through the necks after using a non-bushing FL sizing die. Rarely are the donuts an issue for me since I almost always seat my bullet with the bearing surface well above them.

For those who using bushing sizing dies, the donut really shouldn't ever be an issue since the bushing doesn't do any sizing down at the area where a donut develops.

 

[R_A_W]

The best way I found to find out what's going on with the donut is to use pin gauges.

Didn’t even think of that, but that’s definitely the best way

 

[RTTY]

I can't really answer that. Turning just the outside will still leave a bump or ridge on the inside, even if you trim after you've mandrel through it, due to spring back. I would think you need to turn the outside & inside of the neck to completely remove the bump.

I think that turning the inner of the neck with all stuff that turn slow make a coarse result.
I cant use the idod...

 

[RTTY]

Donuts are caused by neck turning and improper chamber fitting .

Partial Anneal case necks and shoulder, then FL size . MARK a case neck shoulder with marking pen ,chamber insure there are NO issues .

You can then Neck size using mandrel die after firing , Cases which have been partial annealed yield to forming better and will flow smoothly ,providing there's No issue with your chamber fitment .

Shure for an improper chamber fitting.

I've only the standard RCBS FL die, can I make the test with this?
For the future what brand of FL no bushing die I can buy?
Forster are ok?
Other brand?
I asked to Forster directory for One FL Honed (.286) but they don't ship Internationally....

I anneal after any firing.

Sizing with mandrel after firing with FL Bushing or FL standard?

 

[RTTY]

I would like to point out that for me the donut is not a problem for seating the ball, or for freebore, also with Lapua manuale length I stay up ti the donut, but a problem for the chambering.
With the donut on the outside I have to keep the headspace well above the canonical 2 thousandths of an inch, about 4 or 5 thou, this would create other problems, such as head case split, and reduce the case life, much more serious than the donut itself.

 

[RTTY]

The best way I found to find out what's going on with the donut is to use pin gauges. I know, few reloaders go to the expense of having pin gauges to take measurements. I did and, for me, I like what I was able to learn by using them.

Running a mandrel through the neck does move the donut to the outside, though less so with work hardened cases from several firings, due to springback.

I've verified this using my pin gauges on my cases that I annealed after every firing. Before running my mandrel through the necks, I ran a pin gauge into the neck to measure the ID of the neck and it wouldn't go past the donut. Measured the ID where the donut was, there was a .0025 difference (these are Lapua cases fired 16 times). After running my mandrel through the neck to get the "neck tension" I'm after, the snug fitting pin gauge would run all the way through the neck with the donut not hindering it at all. The donut had been moved to the outside as a difference in OD could now be measured on the neck at the neck-shoulder junction.

There was a poster who said, emphatically, that the neck wall thickness increases over time as the cases are sized, reloaded and fired. He insisted that if you're one who turns necks, you'll have to turn them again after just a few firings. So, I took those cases that were fired 16 times (which, BTW, the necks had been turned to .014" to start with after the 2nd firing) and measured their thickness. The necks were still measured .014", except where the donut was. After expanding the necks with the mandrel, I turned them again with the cutter still set to give me .014" neck thickness and the cutter didn't remove any material until I got down to the donut. Now there's no donut inside or outside, again testing with pin gauges to see if there's any donut left on the inside.

Let me just point out again that I anneal my brass after every firing, which I've come to see the donuts move to the outside when I run my mandrel through the necks after using a non-bushing FL sizing die. Rarely are the donuts an issue for me since I almost always seat my bullet with the bearing surface well above them.

For those who using bushing sizing dies, the donut really shouldn't ever be an issue since the bushing doesn't do any sizing down at the area where a donut develops.

I keep some time for read your post calmly...

So you can learn me how I can apply your suggestion.

Some shooting items are not availlable on Italy

 

[Ex E6]

Shure for an improper chamber fitting.

I've only the standard RCBS FL die, can I make the test with this?
For the future what brand of FL no bushing die I can buy?
Forster are ok?
Other brand?
I asked to Forster directory for One FL Honed (.286) but they don't ship Internationally....

I anneal after any firing.

Sizing with mandrel after firing with FL Bushing or FL standard?

OK : What do YOU think has caused the donut in Your case ?. Donut wasn't present in the cartridge prior to firing it ,correct ?

When a hotter load is fired more brass moves from the shoulder area forward into the chamber ,yet is restricted as to how far it can move forward . This creates a donut at base of neck/shoulder junction . Thinning by turning the neck somewhat agitates the problem ,by allowing MORE shoulder forward .

A full length sizing die is YOUR FRIEND ,for removing a donut . However the case MUST be FULLY resized ,after partial annealing ,so as to soften the brass neck shoulder junction . Also important to Bump the shoulder back 0.006" or more if possible ,to remove the donut by allowing the " Shoulder " to move forward and thus stuffing the donut into the neck when fired . Trimming 0.006" off OAL will accommodate all of that movement .

Once YOU have prepped loaded and fired those cartridges ,they should again be normal to reload to tolerance .

Heavy resizing and necking up brass to a bigger caliber are also culprits in getting donuts. The neck bushing die will partially hide a mild donut and simply force it inward .

A FL case mouth with expander-ball well lubed along with neck lube can sometimes help pull material from the inside towards the neck ,after annealing when FL sizing and sometimes not . That's a crap shoot but worth the effort , IMO .

Kind of like fire forming a case and not using a bullet : This will also Work to straighten out your case donut ;
I borrowed this so I didn't have to type it all . A Fast pistol or shotgun Powder ( I don't reload your caliber so perhaps someone else can recommend an appropriate amount ) with an appropriate filler and a plug seal .

I started with 100 pieces of winchester brass and annealed them. Then I created a false shoulder by necking them up to 7mm then necked them back down to 25 caliber but not all the way. Only far enough to close in my chamber firmly so the primer strike would not drive the case forward in the chamber and give me missfires or stretched cases. I primed them with f205's. I then put 15 grains of unique into the cases. I chose cream of wheat as the filler. I poured it into the case about halfway up the neck. I tapped the case to settle the filler, rolled up a 1/4 square of toilet paper, and stuffed it in the neck to keep everything in place.
I lubed my bolt lugs and chambered my first round. (please make sure to fire in a safe direction in an appropriate place. There are high velocity particles exiting the barrel that could do serious damage at close range.) The report was louder than expected but with almost no recoil. When I ejected the casing it I found a perfectly formed ackley case.

It worked so well that I will do all my fire forming this way.

I'd also like to add ,partial annealing ISN'T necessary after each firing and may be contributing too You case donut problem ! ??.

The softer the brass is in that area allows MORE movement forward ,So ??? . To extend case life ,I only partial anneal after every 4 Th. shot . IF You are concerned with neck tension issues Try using an inert dry lube and cut back on annealing . See how that works out for You .

I hope this helps

 

[supercorndogs]

Shouldn't need to form false shoulder firing Ackley improved cases.

 

[straightshooter1]

Hmmmm???

The softer the brass is in that area allows MORE movement forward ,So ??? . To extend case life ,I only partial anneal after every 4 Th. shot .

Are you suggesting that every time a case is consecutively annealed (like at the same temperature for the same amount of time) the brass gets softer each time?

 

[RTTY]

OK : What do YOU think has caused the donut in Your case ?. Donut wasn't present in the cartridge prior to firing it ,correct ?

When a hotter load is fired more brass moves from the shoulder area forward into the chamber ,yet is restricted as to how far it can move forward . This creates a donut at base of neck/shoulder junction . Thinning by turning the neck somewhat agitates the problem ,by allowing MORE shoulder forward .

A full length sizing die is YOUR FRIEND ,for removing a donut . However the case MUST be FULLY resized ,after partial annealing ,so as to soften the brass neck shoulder junction . Also important to Bump the shoulder back 0.006" or more if possible ,to remove the donut by allowing the " Shoulder " to move forward and thus stuffing the donut into the neck when fired . Trimming 0.006" off OAL will accommodate all of that movement .

Once YOU have prepped loaded and fired those cartridges ,they should again be normal to reload to tolerance .

Heavy resizing and necking up brass to a bigger caliber are also culprits in getting donuts. The neck bushing die will partially hide a mild donut and simply force it inward .

A FL case mouth with expander-ball well lubed along with neck lube can sometimes help pull material from the inside towards the neck ,after annealing when FL sizing and sometimes not . That's a crap shoot but worth the effort , IMO .

Kind of like fire forming a case and not using a bullet : This will also Work to straighten out your case donut ;
I borrowed this so I didn't have to type it all . A Fast pistol or shotgun Powder ( I don't reload your caliber so perhaps someone else can recommend an appropriate amount ) with an appropriate filler and a plug seal .

I started with 100 pieces of winchester brass and annealed them. Then I created a false shoulder by necking them up to 7mm then necked them back down to 25 caliber but not all the way. Only far enough to close in my chamber firmly so the primer strike would not drive the case forward in the chamber and give me missfires or stretched cases. I primed them with f205's. I then put 15 grains of unique into the cases. I chose cream of wheat as the filler. I poured it into the case about halfway up the neck. I tapped the case to settle the filler, rolled up a 1/4 square of toilet paper, and stuffed it in the neck to keep everything in place.
I lubed my bolt lugs and chambered my first round. (please make sure to fire in a safe direction in an appropriate place. There are high velocity particles exiting the barrel that could do serious damage at close range.) The report was louder than expected but with almost no recoil. When I ejected the casing it I found a perfectly formed ackley case.

It worked so well that I will do all my fire forming this way.

I'd also like to add ,partial annealing ISN'T necessary after each firing and may be contributing too You case donut problem ! ??.

The softer the brass is in that area allows MORE movement forward ,So ??? . To extend case life ,I only partial anneal after every 4 Th. shot . IF You are concerned with neck tension issues Try using an inert dry lube and cut back on annealing . See how that works out for You .

I hope this helps

Thanks for detailled advice but for my gunsmithing level the work are a bit too hard, if you can make a video from your resizing work maybe I can make a test....

At your opinion are best FL standard die for sizing or FL Bushing?
Or neck sizing until the brass chamber freely?

 

[RTTY]

Hmmmm???

Are you suggesting that every time a case is consecutively annealed (like at the same temperature for the same amount of time) the brass gets softer each time?

I don't think this is what he means, but only that with each shot the annealed brass is given the opportunity to be moved forward if the neck is annealed after each shot.

In short there is always soft material... but then the uniformity factor is missing as far as the tension of the neck is concerned, but maybe I'm wrong

 

[whatsupdoc]

1) Turning necks does not cause doughnuts.
2) Pushing a mandrel through the neck will NEVER EVER push the doughnut out.

Get an new unfired case resize it and see if it chambers then push a mandrel through the neck
and check again. If it chambers without issue measure the necks at multiple locations and
compare.

To test a 223 case for doughnuts you need .221, .222 and .223 pin gauges, resize
the cases run the mandrel through than check with a pin.

There is a way to remove doughnuts, but it is a pain in the ass to do. It involves expanding the
neck .002 wider than the reamer to a depth equal to the start of the doughnut then using a reamer
to cut out the doughnut. Being the neck is now wider the reamer will only cut the doughnut.

 

[RTTY]

1) Turning necks does not cause doughnuts.
2) Pushing a mandrel through the neck will NEVER EVER push the doughnut out.

Get an new unfired case resize it and see if it chambers then push a mandrel through the neck
and check again. If it chambers without issue measure the necks at multiple locations and
compare.

To test a 223 case for doughnuts you need .221, .222 and .223 pin gauges, resize
the cases run the mandrel through than check with a pin.

There is a way to remove doughnuts, but it is a pain in the ass to do. It involves expanding the
neck .002 wider than the reamer to a depth equal to the start of the doughnut then using a reamer
to cut out the doughnut. Being the neck is now wider the reamer will only cut the doughnut.

Hello why .223?
My case are for 6,5x47 Lapua, ready on top!

 

[RTTY]

I watched the Alex Wheeler videos, if i Bump the shoulder anither w thou for dall'ing down the bolt I make an headspece of 1.4670 or 1.4675" that make a case that chamber without trouble on my rifle.
But 4 thou on a bokt action don't are a bit too mutch?

 

[whatsupdoc]

Hello why .223?
My case are for 6,5x47 Lapua, ready on top!

Brain freeze, for 6.5 you need .261, .262 and .263

 

[straightshooter1]

1) Turning necks does not cause doughnuts.

Agree.

2) Pushing a mandrel through the neck will NEVER EVER push the doughnut out.

Get an new unfired case resize it and see if it chambers then push a mandrel through the neck
and check again. If it chambers without issue measure the necks at multiple locations and
compare.

To test a 223 case for doughnuts you need .221, .222 and .223 pin gauges, resize
the cases run the mandrel through than check with a pin.

There is a way to remove doughnuts, but it is a pain in the ass to do. It involves expanding the
neck .002 wider than the reamer to a depth equal to the start of the doughnut then using a reamer
to cut out the doughnut. Being the neck is now wider the reamer will only cut the doughnut.

In my tests, I found running a mandrel through properly annealed necks did indeed move the donut out. . . as I stated here: https://www.snipershide.com/shootin...fter-expander-mandrell.7252138/#post-12080340

I suppose I should mention too that when I run my mandrels through the necks, I also do it giving them a little dwell time like I do when sizing the cases to reduce the amount of springback. So, I'm not running the mandrels through quickly.

 

[Ex E6]

Hmmmm???

Are you suggesting that every time a case is consecutively annealed (like at the same temperature for the same amount of time) the brass gets softer each time?

NO ; Brass reaches an equilibrium given a specific temperature ,until it become liquid . Say You partial anneal a case at 700 Deg. F. for 5 seconds , won't do shit . Heat it to 1300 Deg. F and it's gonna be as near soft as is realistic and malleable .

 

[Ex E6]

1) Turning necks does not cause doughnuts.
2) Pushing a mandrel through the neck will NEVER EVER push the doughnut out.

Get an new unfired case resize it and see if it chambers then push a mandrel through the neck
and check again. If it chambers without issue measure the necks at multiple locations and
compare.

To test a 223 case for doughnuts you need .221, .222 and .223 pin gauges, resize
the cases run the mandrel through than check with a pin.

There is a way to remove doughnuts, but it is a pain in the ass to do. It involves expanding the
neck .002 wider than the reamer to a depth equal to the start of the doughnut then using a reamer
to cut out the doughnut. Being the neck is now wider the reamer will only cut the doughnut.

Turning a neck reduces brass thickness agreed ? , it most certainly can contribute to the thicker shoulder forcing the thinner section of brass neck forward when fired . Hotter the load the more the material wants too flow forward . Bolt contains base ,hence why cases stretch and altering thickness does contribute .

 

[Ex E6]

Metallurgy from Hornady Tech .

The brass case is thicker the farther down from the mouth you go. Neck turning only gets rid of some of the fatter stuff from the outside of the neck, and the shoulder material eventually ends up working its way forward . It moves faster do too thinning brass, thus giving you a donut. We also don't help matters with bushing dies that only size 3/4 of the neck itself. The material there in the middle is getting squeeze-stopped on one end, and pushed up on the other. Donut .

 

[RTTY]

Hello everyone,
at this point we need to put some order on the methodologies and equipment, but also on the points of view. assuming that the maximum headspace is 1.4710" .

I would proceed as follows: I anneal the cases with induction, in this way, if I have to anneal an original lapua case, I insert it at a certain height in the coil and let it cook for 4.2sec.

But in this case, where I have to anneal the shoulder/neck joint better, I inserted the case further into the coil but always for the same annealing time. I resized the case with FL die with bushing (.286") to 1.4690" of headspace.
The bolt closes by gravity by itself.

I then widened the neck and the shoulder/neck joint with the mandrel to 0.2625" maintaining headspace at 1.4690" but the bolt does not close by gravity but must be forced slightly.

I consequently annealed again with a 0.2630" mandrel and turned the neck until reaching graze the shoulder with a thickness of about 0.013".
At this point the bolt closes better, not only by gravity but it goes much better.



But I have a doubt... should I continue with this solution maintaining 1.4690" of headspace or should I follow the advice of Wheeler's video and bring headspace to 1.4690"-0.002"? so - 4 thou from 1.4710" of the fired case? In the meantime I'm looking for a way to get a Forster FL no bushing Honed die to .286" here in Italy.
Am I making the right choice or can I safely stay with the Forster FL Bushing die?

Last test are chambering with the bullet seated...

 

[Ex E6]

Hello everyone,
at this point we need to put some order on the methodologies and equipment, but also on the points of view. assuming that the maximum headspace is 1.4710" .

I would proceed as follows: I anneal the cases with induction, in this way, if I have to anneal an original lapua case, I insert it at a certain height in the coil and let it cook for 4.2sec.

But in this case, where I have to anneal the shoulder/neck joint better, I inserted the case further into the coil but always for the same annealing time. I resized the case with FL die with bushing (.286") to 1.4690" of headspace.
The bolt closes by gravity by itself.

I then widened the neck and the shoulder/neck joint with the mandrel to 0.2625" maintaining headspace at 1.4690" but the bolt does not close by gravity but must be forced slightly.

I consequently annealed again with a 0.2630" mandrel and turned the neck until reaching graze the shoulder with a thickness of about 0.013".
At this point the bolt closes better, not only by gravity but it goes much better.



But I have a doubt... should I continue with this solution maintaining 1.4690" of headspace or should I follow the advice of Wheeler's video and bring headspace to 1.4690"-0.002"? so - 4 thou from 1.4710" of the fired case? In the meantime I'm looking for a way to get a Forster FL no bushing Honed die to .286" here in Italy.
Am I making the right choice or can I safely stay with the Forster FL Bushing die?

Last test are chambering with the bullet seated...

I say leave well enough alone and don't worry about the 0.004" headspace with the previously fired and acquired cases .

When You can get New cases ,bump them back 0.002" for your chamber dimensions and call it good . Seems your FL die is allowing you to chamber ,so why get another ?.

 

[RTTY]

I put together a couple of dummy ammo rounds.

With headspace of 2 thou under the headspace of fired case the round cahmeber with a light pressure of finger, I think that with 3 thou or maybe 4 the bolt fall down free of friction.

On my mind, maybe I think wrong, the bushing leaves a round shape of the shoulder/neck junction instead a solid corner, and this round shape increases the probability for an erratic headspace measure.
So I think that the FL Honed are much better than the FL bushing. However I think to size and turn the old cases on the manner previously talked about.

 

[straightshooter1]

I put together a couple of dummy ammo rounds.

With headspace of 2 thou under the headspace of fired case the round cahmeber with a light pressure of finger, I think that with 3 thou or maybe 4 the bolt fall down free of friction.

On my mind, maybe I think wrong, the bushing leaves a round shape of the shoulder/neck junction instead a solid corner, and this round shape increases the probability for an erratic headspace measure.
So I think that the FL Honed are much better than the FL bushing. However I think to size and turn the old cases on the manner previously talked about.

Because bushing dies don't size all the way down to the neck-shoulder junction, is the reason I use a non-bushing FL sizing die.

But. . . there's something many reloaders like about the bushing die other than controlling and minimizing the work put onto on the neck, which is. . . that part of the neck that doesn't get sized helps align the case into the chamber better where the case's longitudinal axis is more in like with the bore's longitudinal axis when the bolt is closed.

 

[RTTY]

Because bushing dies don't size all the way down to the neck-shoulder junction, is the reason I use a non-bushing FL sizing die.

But. . . there's something many reloaders like about the bushing die other than controlling and minimizing the work put onto on the neck, which is. . . that part of the neck that doesn't get sized helps align the case into the chamber better where the case's longitudinal axis is more in like with the bore's longitudinal axis when the bolt is closed.

Are for these reason that I would buy one Honed FL Die.

The sizing give me a like new shaperld case but with only the resizing of the neck that I need....

For the think that the partial resized neck help to center the round/neck/ogive on the chamber I'm not a lot secure of this, but I'm repeat that maybe I'm wrong....

On a system of round and chamber (chamber + bolt) ave a lot of clearance from the head of the case and bolt face trasversally, a lot of clearance from the case body and chamber, a lot of clearance on all the sistem round/chamber so a semi sized neck can help (maybe) for neck centering but can't help for centering the entire round/chamber system....

 

[straightshooter1]

Are for these reason that I would buy one Honed FL Die.

The sizing give me a like new shaperld case but with only the resizing of the neck that I need....

For the think that the partial resized neck help to center the round/neck/ogive on the chamber I'm not a lot secure of this, but I'm repeat that maybe I'm wrong....

On a system of round and chamber (chamber + bolt) ave a lot of clearance from the head of the case and bolt face trasversally, a lot of clearance from the case body and chamber, a lot of clearance on all the sistem round/chamber so a semi sized neck can help (maybe) for neck centering but can't help for centering the entire round/chamber system....

If one has a bolt that has a spring loaded ejector pin, that pin puts pressure on the cartridge as you lock the bolt down, which will push that unsized portion of the neck more tightly into the chamber and this is where you get the more centering effect. Otherwise, the looseness due to clearances you mention is resolved with the firing pint strikes the primer forcing the case into position. . . like when there's a lot of case headspace on the cartridge.

 

[Ex E6]

FL sizing is the way too go and I'm still against partial annealing after every firing . I've proven to myself #3 firings and partial annealing extends case life ,without sacrificing accuracy or over working brass . After De-capping , ultrasonically cleaning, partial annealing, sizing ,measuring to uniform OAL 1942-43 LC & SL M2 .30 Cal. once fired cases . I loaded within 1.0 grain of maximum charge for M1 Garand and repeated it #50 times without a single lost case ,split neck , torn rim or lose primer pocket . I did eventually cut two cases ,so as to accurately measure wall thickness for potential case head separation . Happy to report those cases could go another 10-? reloads .
Garand extractors aren't easy on case rims , I've lost a few commercial cases due too torn rim but not a single Military case !.

An the cases I started with WERE UGLY !.