Changing Ammo practices

[Rthur]

What are the procedures you like to employ when trying a different type of lube/ammo?
Just shoot it until it settles down?
A minor cleaning to start fresh?
I'm interested in any and all techniques.

R

 

[Nik H]

I spend some time cleaning the fouling in the barrel using a good carbon remover. I tend to not scrub the bore but use KG products to get the lead out of the bore. A few moistened patches through the bore. Let sit and then run some dry patches through until they come out looking clean.

This being said, I do spend some time removing the black ring in the front part of chamber area also known as the throat or lead angle area. I find that this area builds carbon quickly and may also include some spent primer material. Since I only clean the barrel every few hundred rounds or when trying new ammo, the ring build up in the throat and lead area can be somewhat pronounced so I do use a nylon brush to completely remove this ring. This ring can cause some serious chambering issues in semi-autos if it builds up to a great degree. It is less of a problem with bolt actions but definitely can cause larger group sizes or flyers. Bolt guns with larger chambers are not as affected but my Annie has a match chamber and it becomes noticeable after a couple of range sessions. You didn't mention what kind of rifle you are using so I don't know how large a problem it will be for you.

After this is done, I shoot at least a box of the new ammo to let the barrel stabilize. It seldom takes 50 rounds but that is my gun and it may not be the same for you. When I am satisfied that the rifle's performance is stable, I begin shooting for groups to see how the rifle performs with the new ammo. I typically shoot at A23 targets and shoot 10 round groups to weed out variables. I record all of the data and make comparisons after the range.

Like you; I am always looking for fresh perspectives.

Best,

 

[Rthur]

Thanks Nik, I shoot an Annie MPR.
I've been using wolf target match @ 50 yrds with decent results.
I've recently picked up some center x to see how it shoots.
I've experienced what seemed to be fliers.
More than likely it's the trigger puller's fault.

R

 

[poptart4YALL]

I'll just link to this article that covers cleaning .22lr rifles is a ton detail. http://www.rrdvegas.com/rimfire-cleaning.html

But it takes my 10/22 w/ Kidd barrel about 30rds settle in after cleaning. Just like on center fire rifles building up that layer of copper, rimfires do the same with wax/lead/fouling.
Every barrel is going to be different and it'll be different with different ammo as well. I would completely clean your rifle before test new ammo, you want to know how many rounds it take for it to settle in/stabilize. That should be a factor on picking ammo, I'm not going to switch to an ammo that takes 100rds after cleaning to stabilize, that's a waste of time and money in ammo.

Personally, I just record everything, note the round count after cleaning and then figure out how many rounds in your groups start getting repeatable and go from there.

-Poptart

 

[Rthur]

I'll just link to this article that covers cleaning .22lr rifles is a ton detail. http://www.rrdvegas.com/rimfire-cleaning.html

But it takes my 10/22 w/ Kidd barrel about 30rds settle in after cleaning. Just like on center fire rifles building up that layer of copper, rimfires do the same with wax/lead/fouling.
Every barrel is going to be different and it'll be different with different ammo as well. I would completely clean your rifle before test new ammo, you want to know how many rounds it take for it to settle in/stabilize. That should be a factor on picking ammo, I'm not going to switch to an ammo that takes 100rds after cleaning to stabilize, that's a waste of time and money in ammo.

Personally, I just record everything, note the round count after cleaning and then figure out how many rounds in your groups start getting repeatable and go from there.

-Poptart

Thanks for the heads up Poptart, I'll check it out.

R

 

[Nik H]

Thanks Nik, I shoot an Annie MPR.
I've been using wolf target match @ 50 yrds with decent results.
I've recently picked up some center x to see how it shoots.
I've experienced what seemed to be fliers.
More than likely it's the trigger puller's fault.

R

I just tried the Prime Ammo Bolt action and it is amazing. I would definitely check it out. I also shoot an Annie 64 MPR that went through the custom shop. I had a two stage trigger added and I had the barrel rechambered from the stock MPR. Being that I am left handed, they used a RH MPR stock with a cutout on the LH side to accommodate the LH bolt. It shoots like a dream. I occasionally get fliers with Wolf. I usually stick to RWS R50 or Special Match. However, this Prime shot as well and is a lot cheaper

 

[Nik H]

I'll just link to this article that covers cleaning .22lr rifles is a ton detail. http://www.rrdvegas.com/rimfire-cleaning.html


-Poptart

That is my bible. Steve, the author, built my Anschutz and is a guru with respect to rimfire rifles.

 

[poptart4YALL]

That is my bible. Steve, the author, built my Anschutz and is a guru with respect to rimfire rifles.

Didn't know he built rifles. I'll have to get an Anny one of these days. Been loving my Kidd Frankenstein build to much lately tho

 

[Nik H]

He runs the custom shop for Anschutz North America

 

[JG26_Irish]

I'll just link to this article that covers cleaning .22lr rifles is a ton detail. http://www.rrdvegas.com/rimfire-cleaning.html

But it takes my 10/22 w/ Kidd barrel about 30rds settle in after cleaning. Every barrel is going to be different and it'll be different with different ammo as well. I would completely clean your rifle before test new ammo, you want to know how many rounds it take for it to settle in/stabilize. that's a waste of time and money in ammo.


-Poptart

Nice article in the link. I had never read that before but do have one of Steve's books about rimfire ammo accuracy that was good. I cannot argue with anything he said and most of my own practice follow his own with a few insignificant exceptions. As for cleaning when testing ammo? I have done this multiple ways with similar results. The most meticulous method is to clean completely and reseason with the new ammo each time you switch. This takes longer, burns up more ammo and time and frankly in my opinion is only going to be worth the effort when testing extremely accurate precision rifles. I have a Anschutz mod 54 super match olympic rifle that benefits from this because it shoots so well you can see the difference. Even then the other method below works for it and others. Plus if you are for example testing 4 lots of Eley Black or three lots of Lapua CX, is it really worth it to clean the bore between lots? I my opinion it is not. Now if you switch from RWS to 10x you could (probably will) see some deviations until you either clean the bore or shoot several rounds. Which leads to my other method and the one I use more often.

Alternate lazy method when you are either time or ammo budget limited. I am usually both is much of my testing is in the mornings before work. Each rifle takes between 5 and 20 rds or so to season and settle down. Once in the window, they will usually shoot well for at least 100 rds and most will run for 200 rds min before dropping off enough to measure. I have found that the higher quality barrels take fewer rds to season and more rounds for the drop off to occur. I have one well worn old Remington that takes about 30 shots to get in the zone and if you stop long enough for it to cool, it takes 10 more to get back in the zone. But it is an exception. Any ways. Shoot five 5 shot groups after the gun is seasoned. When switching to the next ammo, shoot 10 rds before recording the first group. You can run a dry patch down the bbl or even a wet followed by a dry but I usually just skip this step and shoot the new ammo. After 10rds, I record five more groups, then move to the next. Repeat. If this process expends more than about 150rd (four test lots), I will usually clean the bore and then continue. However, often time was the issue and if pressed and if accuracy has not dropped off, you can press on. I rarely have time to test more than six lots at a time since it takes about 30-40 min per lot to get in a proper test. Therefore, I rarely feel the need to clean at the range for these sessions. It is important to do these tests from a very solid rest using sand bags or other solid methods to remove as many other variables as possible. What I have found is that testing with the first method produces smaller average group sizes for all the ammo tested but the second lazy method still reliably will identify the ammo lots that the rifle likes the best and once cleaned and reseasoned those same best lots often print smaller groups. I once used this method to test an old Winchester Mod 52 and most of the groups were averaging from .300 to .500 which were not that great. But after finding the best ammo, and cleaning the bore, that rifle will print 50y 5-sh groups that are generally averaging in the 0.268" with the occasional group in the 0.150" range which is much better than the tests would suggest. What the testing did was show the relative difference from one ammo to the next and not the total accuracy potential of the combined package. Again, the more meticulous you are the better as long as you have the time and budget for it.

Irish

 

[kansas]

I appreciate all the information in this thread. I've just started shooting .22 and it is a whole new learning experience compared to centerfire. I've struggled finding the right ammo and since there isn't any local supply of match .22 ammo I've had to order bricks. I've had to change cleaning methods from centerfire and still haven't found the sweet spot between cleaning and fouling yet. I have been finding, as Irish said, that during a shooting session that I can't just change brand of ammo and have it shooting to poa or accurately until I've shot a couple of groups and then fatigue starts to affect group size. I'm enjoying learning all of this but am discovering that .22 accuracy is elusive and fickle.

 

[rg1911]

My method may not be perfect, but it will weed out the bottom-of-the-barrel cartridges. (Ruger 10/22, older 8.5-25 Leupold, Kidd barrel, laminate thumbhole stock -- got it used and can't remember the maker.)

Starting with a clean bore:

- Fire 10 rounds.
- Fire 5 rounds for group.

Clean bore. I use bore cleaner (usually Butch's Bore Shine with Kroil added) and I have really come to like the VFG intensive felt-with-brass-whiskers cleaning pellets from Brownell's.

- Fire 10 rounds of the next test ammo.
- Fire 5 for group.

Repeat for number of test ammo brands.

If two test groups are close, I'll fire them again to see if the ammo remains consistent.

I have determined that my barrel settles within 10 rounds after a cleaning. I've also determined that it becomes erratic within 180 rounds without cleaning. So I clean it thoroughly after each match or 100 rounds; whichever comes first.

One important point: I set a 50-yard zero, but I do a further weeding of test ammo by shooting for groups at 100 yards. I learned the hard way that two brands that did almost equally well at 50 yards were miles apart at 75 yards and beyond, even though both came from the same factory, and possibly the same assembly line. With targets out to 225 yards, using the less-expensive ammo helped me shoot the lowest score I have ever recorded.

So, back to Lapua Midas +. Expensive, but it's consistent and accurate in my rifle. (Eley Red -- I think it was -- equaled or bettered the Midas, but with its flat tip, it jammed at least twice in each magazine load. I know, get a bolt rifle.)

Cheers,
Richard

 

[Rthur]

Thanks for the input gents, rimfire is another great learning experience.

R

 

[jbell]

Assuming you are shooting a quality barrel with a good chamber here is my experience:

Starting with a barrel seasoned with brand X the first 4 to 7 rounds of brand Y will be a screamer group. Then the next 10 to 15 rounds will show poor accuracy. After about the 15 to 20 round mark the accuracy has settled down to how it will shoot for that ammo / barrel combo. I have found this to hold very true across a fairly large sample rate of rifles. What is interesting is that I find that if I clean thoroughly it will take the same 15-20 rounds to shoot back to standard again. Some of the times you can accelerate the seasoning process (while switching between brands) by a dry patch or two, but this usually only cuts 5 to 8 rounds off the seasoning process. Personally I had rather be shooting than cleaning so I never clean between ammo changes. That is unless I cant get anything to shoot to standard then it may just be time for a good scrub.

*I am usually switching between Eley Match or Tenex to Lapua Center X or Midas b/c that is about all I shoot. I find if a barrel will not shoot a particular lot of one of those 4 ammo then something is up with the rifle to begin with.

**Also keep in mind that I am NOT a benchrest shooter, I come from the 3P and prone world where most shoot way more rounds between cleaning intervals than the BR guys do. Most BR shooters will clean after every target, then reseason and repeat. Of all the very accurate rimfire rifles I have been fortunate enough to own none have ever needed to be cleaned before 500 rounds and most would go much more than that (so much so that I had rather not say on an open forum as I may be kicked out of the rimfire threads forever! HAHA).

Ultimately just do whatever works for you. Listen to what everyone has to say, but don't be fooled into thinking there is only 1 way of skinning this cat.

 

[JG26_Irish]

Assuming you are shooting a quality barrel with a good chamber here is my experience:

Starting with a barrel seasoned with brand X the first 4 to 7 rounds of brand Y will be a screamer group. Then the next 10 to 15 rounds will show poor accuracy. After about the 15 to 20 round mark the accuracy has settled down to how it will shoot for that ammo / barrel combo. I have found this to hold very true across a fairly large sample rate of rifles. What is interesting is that I find that if I clean thoroughly it will take the same 15-20 rounds to shoot back to standard again. Some of the times you can accelerate the seasoning process (while switching between brands) by a dry patch or two, but this usually only cuts 5 to 8 rounds off the seasoning process. Personally I had rather be shooting than cleaning so I never clean between ammo changes. That is unless I cant get anything to shoot to standard then it may just be time for a good scrub.

*I am usually switching between Eley Match or Tenex to Lapua Center X or Midas b/c that is about all I shoot. I find if a barrel will not shoot a particular lot of one of those 4 ammo then something is up with the rifle to begin with.

**Also keep in mind that I am NOT a benchrest shooter, I come from the 3P and prone world where most shoot way more rounds between cleaning intervals than the BR guys do. Most BR shooters will clean after every target, then reseason and repeat. Of all the very accurate rimfire rifles I have been fortunate enough to own none have ever needed to be cleaned before 500 rounds and most would go much more than that (so much so that I had rather not say on an open forum as I may be kicked out of the rimfire threads forever! HAHA).

Ultimately just do whatever works for you. Listen to what everyone has to say, but don't be fooled into thinking there is only 1 way of skinning this cat.

Listen to what JB is telling you. I agree with about 95% of it and the only exceptions are these:

1.) When switching from brand X to brand Y, you will often see a great first group. TRUE, but this may not always occur if brand Y is a really poor ammo for this gun and almost never happens if I am only switching lots between two lots of Lapua for example. Since All the lots of Center X have the same lube, powder, primer and brass, they all shoot in a similar manner and swapping lots does not require cleaning and has only small impacts related to muzzle velocity and bbl harmonics for the most part. But if you swap from 10x to Lapua or visa versa, you will often see one screamer group and then one or two bad just as Jessi said.

2.) When swapping ammo brands some of my rifles settle much faster. Those same rifles also shoot nearly all good quality ammo well. The finicky rifles are consistently finicky and take longer to settle down.

3.) Every rifle has that one brand and specific lot that it shoots best with. The variance between the best lot and the others is less with those same best shooting rifles. I have an Anschutz 54, a Winchester 52 and a Savage Mkii that all will shoot almost any ammo well within reason. I am now comparing RWS, Lapua, Eley, SK to one another, not Remington Golden Bullet. Now the peak accuracy potential of the Savage is not as tight as the other two but The other two are high pedigree rifles in great condition with world class optics on them as well. And the addition of the great optics can make much more of a difference than a great lot of ammo compared to a average or even below average lot. It took me a long time to learn that. It is not a variable when testing ammo lots but if you are already testing ammo lots, you have a strong desire to improve your overall precision shooting capability and that is all about minimization of all the variables.

4.) Not a comment by JB but Eley ammo does not feed well in all repeaters. My Savage will not reliably feed it and even has issues with Lapua hanging up on the last round with one after market mag. I believe this is due to slop in the mag well. I have some new mags to test to see if it is really the ammo's fault or the design of the rifle and if it can be fixed.

5.) Any President who can lead Congress to simplify the American tax code will go down in history as one of the greatest leaders of my time. Sorry, was completing my taxes and cannot understand why it has to be so F-ing complicated?? !@#$%^&* Add up all your sources of income. The total is now $XXX,XXX. Now look at the tax rate table and choose one of the three available rates that applies to your total income. If you make $0-45k you pay 9% (everybody pays something unless they are zero income), if it is $45-250k you pay 23% and for all those over $250k, you pay 30%. No deductions, no exceptions, no tax credits. The entire Federal return could and should fit on one sheet of paper. We could all argue on the rates and the number of tiers. You could make it 5 or even 6 if you want as long as all citizens with earned income pay at least some amount. NOTE to admin, sorry for the hijacking rant

Irish

 

[jbell]

2.) When swapping ammo brands some of my rifles settle much faster. Those same rifles also shoot nearly all good quality ammo well. The finicky rifles are consistently finicky and take longer to settle down.


5.) Any President who can lead Congress to simplify the American tax code will go down in history as one of the greatest leaders of my time. Sorry, was completing my taxes and cannot understand why it has to be so F-ing complicated?? !@#$%^&* Add up all your sources of income. The total is now $XXX,XXX. Now look at the tax rate table and choose one of the three available rates that applies to your total income. If you make $0-45k you pay 9% (everybody pays something unless they are zero income), if it is $45-250k you pay 23% and for all those over $250k, you pay 30%. No deductions, no exceptions, no tax credits. The entire Federal return could and should fit on one sheet of paper. We could all argue on the rates and the number of tiers. You could make it 5 or even 6 if you want as long as all citizens with earned income pay at least some amount. NOTE to admin, sorry for the hijacking rant

Irish

I completely agree on both accounts. I have been lucky in that most of my rifles have not been finicky, but there are definitely those out there! I should have said it as Irish did.

 

[Nik H]

Listen to what JB is telling you. I agree with about 95% of it and the only exceptions are these:

1.) When switching from brand X to brand Y, you will often see a great first group. TRUE, but this may not always occur if brand Y is a really poor ammo for this gun and almost never happens if I am only switching lots between two lots of Lapua for example. Since All the lots of Center X have the same lube, powder, primer and brass, they all shoot in a similar manner and swapping lots does not require cleaning and has only small impacts related to muzzle velocity and bbl harmonics for the most part. But if you swap from 10x to Lapua or visa versa, you will often see one screamer group and then one or two bad just as Jessi said.

2.) When swapping ammo brands some of my rifles settle much faster. Those same rifles also shoot nearly all good quality ammo well. The finicky rifles are consistently finicky and take longer to settle down.

3.) Every rifle has that one brand and specific lot that it shoots best with. The variance between the best lot and the others is less with those same best shooting rifles. I have an Anschutz 54, a Winchester 52 and a Savage Mkii that all will shoot almost any ammo well within reason. I am now comparing RWS, Lapua, Eley, SK to one another, not Remington Golden Bullet. Now the peak accuracy potential of the Savage is not as tight as the other two but The other two are high pedigree rifles in great condition with world class optics on them as well. And the addition of the great optics can make much more of a difference than a great lot of ammo compared to a average or even below average lot. It took me a long time to learn that. It is not a variable when testing ammo lots but if you are already testing ammo lots, you have a strong desire to improve your overall precision shooting capability and that is all about minimization of all the variables.

4.) Not a comment by JB but Eley ammo does not feed well in all repeaters. My Savage will not reliably feed it and even has issues with Lapua hanging up on the last round with one after market mag. I believe this is due to slop in the mag well. I have some new mags to test to see if it is really the ammo's fault or the design of the rifle and if it can be fixed.

5.) Any President who can lead Congress to simplify the American tax code will go down in history as one of the greatest leaders of my time. Sorry, was completing my taxes and cannot understand why it has to be so F-ing complicated?? !@#$%^&* Add up all your sources of income. The total is now $XXX,XXX. Now look at the tax rate table and choose one of the three available rates that applies to your total income. If you make $0-45k you pay 9% (everybody pays something unless they are zero income), if it is $45-250k you pay 23% and for all those over $250k, you pay 30%. No deductions, no exceptions, no tax credits. The entire Federal return could and should fit on one sheet of paper. We could all argue on the rates and the number of tiers. You could make it 5 or even 6 if you want as long as all citizens with earned income pay at least some amount. NOTE to admin, sorry for the hijacking rant

Irish

I had to quote the whole thing because there is a lot of great information here. I, especially, couldn't agree more with the optics comments in #3.

 

[RicosRevenge]

Best thread on here in a long time. Great info guys.