I join a 1K club in Houston to maybe get into f t/r comps. Besides a physical problem I'm trying to overcome I also have a equipment problem. I have a load for my 24"308 reminton 5r that is a great load at 600, light recoil,& easy on the brass butt its only 2525 fps at the muzzle. I tested some more here at the house (100 yards) & found two loads useing sorted L.C brass thats faster. One is 2600 the other is 2652. Now the 2652 is the smallest grouping at 100 in the sled but the bolt is getting harder to open so im close to max. The question is, how far do you guys go after speed vs it being the most accurate. Im an accuracy guy but I'm seeing that you have to have some speed to keep it supersonic at 1 k. Any other powder beside varget with the 178 bullet that might be faster without as much pressure? Reloader 15&17 was next on my list.
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F T/R Competition Chaseing the rabbit
- Thread starter ARsR4ME
- Start date
Vihtavouri N150 might be an option - I've used in both .308 and .223, behind 155s and 185s as well as 82s, and its been dang near grain-for-grain compatible with Varget. Not that that will get you any more speed, but it might be an option given the general availability (or lack thereof) w/ regards to Varget.
Alliant Power Pro 2000MR might be an option for you to eke a little extra speed out of your load... its a flattened spherical (ball) powder that is supposedly meant for 'heavy' bullet loads in a .308 or similar - if your definition of 'heavy' is ~175-185gn. I've used behind 185s and 200s out of 29-30" factory barrels and it punched the 185s out @ 2780-2790fps vs. 2640-2650 which was all I could get out of Varget (throat too short for the bullet, really). There are lots of threads here on the 'Hide if you search for '2000MR' or some variation; some people down in your neck of the woods have complained about pressure signs when shooting in 110+F temps... not usually a concern for me up here in the Pacific Northwest as I tend to stay in the shade, preferably with A/C, when it gets that hot. Might be different for you ;p
Alliant Power Pro 2000MR might be an option for you to eke a little extra speed out of your load... its a flattened spherical (ball) powder that is supposedly meant for 'heavy' bullet loads in a .308 or similar - if your definition of 'heavy' is ~175-185gn. I've used behind 185s and 200s out of 29-30" factory barrels and it punched the 185s out @ 2780-2790fps vs. 2640-2650 which was all I could get out of Varget (throat too short for the bullet, really). There are lots of threads here on the 'Hide if you search for '2000MR' or some variation; some people down in your neck of the woods have complained about pressure signs when shooting in 110+F temps... not usually a concern for me up here in the Pacific Northwest as I tend to stay in the shade, preferably with A/C, when it gets that hot. Might be different for you ;p
Thats one of the main reasons i dont like playing around close to a max charge. I could tell a change in my mild load if i left it in the sun right now but its just a bit more speed. Thanks for the info on the different powders. Ill look at it
If you want the most speed, I would look at PP2000-MR. I would also look at IMR4064. It has been a good powder for me and gets a little more velocity than Varget. Re-15 would be a good one to try, but it is not very temp stable in my experience.
Some of the slower powders may not get you as much as you'd like out of a 24" barrel. Depending on your throat length and your ability to seat the bullet out you can run Varget, RE15 or N150 all in the 43 to 45 grain load ranges and get good results. Don't bother with RE17, everyone I know who has tried it has ditched it as a competition powder, to temperature sensitive. You need to get all the velocity you can and still be accurate; remember, there are no prizes for winning "bullet races". To put it another way, you can't miss fast enough to win. You need all the velocity you can achieve and maintain accuracy.
My old load with a throat for mag length bullets, in W-W brass (which has way more capacity than your LC), BR2 primers, and Berger 185Juggs, Hornady 178s or 175SMKs was 44.3gr of Varget. I shot that same load in a 24" and a 30", out of the 30 it was in the 2730FPS range, out of your barrel you would probably get mid 2500s to maybe close to 2600 out of that load. Don't try to push it any harder than that, your only going to wear your brass out faster, if you have a heavy bolt lift you are too hot.
You can get out with a 24" tube and have fun, and learn a ton, but there is a reason that dedicated F-TR rifles sport 30" or 32"howitzer tubes. That extra 6 to 8 inches equals another 120 to 200 FPS over what you can safely achieve. Before you stress out your equipment trying to run a 24 with the long tubes, get out there and give it a whirl. The 175 SMK and the 185 Jugg are both very forgiving of transonic. Your're new at this long range thing. I could give you my rifle and loads and you'd probably still drop 25 points to wind. I shot a 24" for the first yr I shot, then I did what everyone does when they start to get serious, buy a 30" barrel.
Take it out try it, and if you really like it get a setup that is made for the game.
My old load with a throat for mag length bullets, in W-W brass (which has way more capacity than your LC), BR2 primers, and Berger 185Juggs, Hornady 178s or 175SMKs was 44.3gr of Varget. I shot that same load in a 24" and a 30", out of the 30 it was in the 2730FPS range, out of your barrel you would probably get mid 2500s to maybe close to 2600 out of that load. Don't try to push it any harder than that, your only going to wear your brass out faster, if you have a heavy bolt lift you are too hot.
You can get out with a 24" tube and have fun, and learn a ton, but there is a reason that dedicated F-TR rifles sport 30" or 32"howitzer tubes. That extra 6 to 8 inches equals another 120 to 200 FPS over what you can safely achieve. Before you stress out your equipment trying to run a 24 with the long tubes, get out there and give it a whirl. The 175 SMK and the 185 Jugg are both very forgiving of transonic. Your're new at this long range thing. I could give you my rifle and loads and you'd probably still drop 25 points to wind. I shot a 24" for the first yr I shot, then I did what everyone does when they start to get serious, buy a 30" barrel.
Take it out try it, and if you really like it get a setup that is made for the game.
I have had this discussion privately with ARsAR4ME and as expected pretty much some of the same comments I made were repeated here.
In Houston, Varget is pretty much THE powder used in F-TR. We shoot year round from temps in the 30s-40s (rarely but they happen) to the 90s and 100s of the summer days and I, for one, have only one load.
As I had explained earlier and as Wade explains above, there IS a reason why we use 30 and 32 inch barrels for 1000yard competition; that extra 200+fps really counts at that distance and with good bullets, something better than the 178A-Max, my bullets are coming in at Mach 1.4 to 1.5+ at the target, 1000 yards away. And my brass easily lasts 8+ loadings.
In Houston, Varget is pretty much THE powder used in F-TR. We shoot year round from temps in the 30s-40s (rarely but they happen) to the 90s and 100s of the summer days and I, for one, have only one load.
As I had explained earlier and as Wade explains above, there IS a reason why we use 30 and 32 inch barrels for 1000yard competition; that extra 200+fps really counts at that distance and with good bullets, something better than the 178A-Max, my bullets are coming in at Mach 1.4 to 1.5+ at the target, 1000 yards away. And my brass easily lasts 8+ loadings.
Speed is generally more important than accuracy - to a point. Run the numbers for 100 fps difference at 600 and 1000 yards, and then compare that to the difference in group size you get by adding 100 fps. Unless your groups totally fall apart, you'll see that the longer the range, the less accurate you need the rifle to be because the intrinsic accuracy of the rifle gets lost in the wind and velocity variation.
That said, you need a legitimate "all day long" 1/2 MOA rifle (at 100 yards) to be competitive in F Class. But use the fastest load that gets you there safely.
To get a really good gut level idea of the relative importance of velocity, range, wind, and accuracy, check out Bryan Litz's book on the WEZ. It's a simple concept, but it explains a lot, eliminating the "in my opinions" and "I feels" by quantifying all this stuff.
That said, you need a legitimate "all day long" 1/2 MOA rifle (at 100 yards) to be competitive in F Class. But use the fastest load that gets you there safely.
To get a really good gut level idea of the relative importance of velocity, range, wind, and accuracy, check out Bryan Litz's book on the WEZ. It's a simple concept, but it explains a lot, eliminating the "in my opinions" and "I feels" by quantifying all this stuff.
Sure, if you are running at the node that people find that is at about 42 grains of Varget then you need to up the velocity to get into the 1000 yard game. That 100 FPS you mention is all well and good, but out of a 24" barrel he's not going to achieve 2750 with a 185gr bullet. (and dear lord I hope he doesn't try) From a 24" he's looking for upper 2500s to maybe the low 2600s for MVs, he's not going to get another 100 FPS above that point, his launcher is too short.
The way most of us do load development is to find the upper limit of your equipment and then dial the most accurate load that is usually w/i about half a grain to a grain down from that point. I've had loads that smoked Lapua Palma in two loadings. I had one just below that load that shot really well pushing 185s at about 2840 or so, and the brass was good for about 4 loadings, until the temperature went up 20 degrees. The vertical went wonky and I started blowing primers. I don't need that, and neither do most of the people in the game. I have heard of folks who run Barnard actions that are loading 185s over 2900FPS and getting one shot from their brass. I'll pass on that, and as far as I know they are not winning either. The US F-TR team shot the 185s in the mid 2700s and won the Worlds.
The point is that most F-TR shooters I know are running pretty close to max loads, and once you get there it's not another 100 FPS it's maybe 25 or 40 more that you can get before your equipment tells you you've hit the limiter, and if your rifle goes from a .5 vertical at 100 to a .75 then you are going to lose more points to the vertical than you gain in the .2 inches per MPH of full value wind you gain from that extra 25 or 40 FPS.
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I don't disagree with that. I'm just saying if your maximum safe load shoots a little looser than one 100 fps slower, that's ok - go with the faster load at 1000. Basically, that there is a quantifiable right answer to this question.
Agreed with XTR and that's one of the reasons I like a long barrel where I can trade tens of grains of Varget for inches of steel. My match load is not a max load and I get over 2800FPS with my 180s in my 32 inch barrel. A safe, temp-insensitive, hot-weather-proof load that is fast and accurate. What's not to like? I love long barrels.
Well i loaded 15 at 44. She does shoot good but some have a little stick bolt just like the test loads before. I also uniformed,drilled the primer holes and deburred the holes and am getting single digit SD's. I feel as though there safe but im not going any higher. Average fps is 2637. Shooter app says 1211.7 @ 1k. I dont have any but see by switching to the hornady bthp 178 with the higher bc give me 1263.8 & .5 less mills. Thanks for the info guys, i'll keep on pluging at it.
