Night Vision Check my Kit Choices DTNVG & MAWL C1+???

[GriffSniper]

Hi Guys,

So I've been doing a lot of research in getting my first pair of NVGs (dual tube goggle) and IR laser/illuminator. I've talked to multiple NVG suppliers and I appreciated the advice I got. Right now I'm leaning towards a pair of unfilmed white phosphor DTNVGs from TNVC as well as a MAWL C1+ IR package. Before I go and drop $12k I wanted to reach out and see if there is anything else I should consider? Other types of NVGs? Other types of IR lasers? I'm all about buy once cry once so if there is a better package for a little more $$$ I might be able to squeeze it. Also, if there is more value in something cheaper, I'd prefer not to waste money either. Thanks for the help guys!

 

[jeffl838]

What are you using it for? If you are just looking for head mounted i2 and a rifle laser, that about sums it up. I personally think the mawl is a rip off. 2k and weak (compared to full power models) - but that's because I want higher power for my use cases.

 

[zinny]

If your willing to wait a couple of months, quite a few bnvd models are being released this fall. Dtnvs, redesigned NVD mini-b, noctis/carson bnvd. One thing to consider is dtnvgs come with milspec objectives. The NVD ul bnvds and assuming new mini b, and noctis bnvd come with light weight glass polymer glass. Our resident non-poor the horta has stated these glass seem optically superior to the milspec. You can of course get it retrofitted to a set of dtnvg like ether optics, but that supposedly add 3 grand on top...

 

[GriffSniper]

I'm using this mainly for hunting and training purposes. I'm a civilian so Uncle Sam says I can't play with powerful lasers without hurting myself or others . I'm willing to wait a few months if it's worth it as I was planning to be on a backorder anyway. So for $10k budget for dual tube night vision unfilmed white phosphorous what would you recommend (now or in the near future when it comes out?).

As for the setup, yes the nods will be helmet mounted and the laser will be rifle mounted. I'm open to all options and want to make sure my hard earned cash is spent wisely.

 

[zinny]

Civ world the MAWL is the top of the heap. The built in switches are second to none in ergonomics and the ir illuminator is second to none. The dbal-d2 performs just as well, but it larger and a bit less ergonomic at HALF the price so it is something you'd have to decide. Price vs function/ergo

The tnvc dtnvgs are a solid choice at the price especially if you are le/mil/first responder emt. Its just not sexy as the new models are coming in. But its tried and true so you can't go wrong.

I rolled my own, getting the tubes from a dealer and get everything built up. Cons are no 10yr warranty, but I got super high spec tubes and got them now.

I'd seriously consider the NVD bnvd UL at the 10 grand range. They have the light weight polymer optics that are supposedly optimized for wp. Like I said, our resident baller the horta considers them superior to milspec optics. He has them on a set of dtnvg, but hey paid 3 grand for the set of optics alone...pretty sure that's not the route you'd be taking from evrything I'm hearing. Supposedly he likes it so much he prefers the dtnvg w/ "super" optics to pvs-31as which he also has. Maybe he'll chine in about it.

 

[Choid]

There isn't two shits worth of difference between any of the dual tube set ups. No matter if they are from this year, next year or last year. Unless you are gazing at stars, white walls and your navel, go with one and be happy.

 

[zinny]

There isn't two shits worth of difference between any of the dual tube set ups. No matter if they are from this year, next year or last year. Unless you are gazing at stars, white walls and your navel, go with one and be happy.

This is also true to a degree, the tubes will all be L3 unfilmed WP. The difference is in the housing the tubes sit in. So it all comes down the features of the housing, which you prefer and at what price point. A set of rnvgs will perform just as well. Its just not a floppy boi and on the intwebz people may still label you as a stunted poor.

 

[NateSavannah]

Civ world the MAWL is the top of the heap. The built in switches are second to none in ergonomics and the ir illuminator is second to none. The dbal-d2 performs just as well, but it larger and a bit less ergonomic at HALF the price so it is something you'd have to decide. Price vs function/ergo

The tnvc dtnvgs are a solid choice at the price especially if you are le/mil/first responder emt. Its just not sexy as the new models are coming in. But its tried and true so you can't go wrong.

I rolled my own, getting the tubes from a dealer and get everything built up. Cons are no 10yr warranty, but I got super high spec tubes and got them now.

I'd seriously consider the NVD bnvd UL at the 10 grand range. They have the light weight polymer optics that are supposedly optimized for wp. Like I said, our resident baller the horta considers them superior to milspec optics. He has them on a set of dtnvg, but hey paid 3 grand for the set of optics alone...pretty sure that's not the route you'd be taking from evrything I'm hearing. Supposedly he likes it so much he prefers the dtnvg w/ "super" optics to pvs-31as which he also has. Maybe he'll chine in about it.

Curios how dep ether eye pieces compare to these new polymer optics coming out.... Ive got dep ethers in my unit but dont have any others to compare to see how much better they are. or arent.

 

[TheHorta]

Curios how dep ether eye pieces compare to these new polymer optics coming out.... Ive got dep ethers in my unit but dont have any others to compare to see how much better they are. or arent.

Ethers are nice and light, with an improved eyebox. It’s really the objectives that seem to make more of an impact. The custom RPO’s in my DTNVG give them that little extra push to make them really special. Not an epic difference, but also lighter and 1/4” shorter than .MIL objectives — which doesn’t *sound* like much, but looks and feels like more. Then the slight, but noticeable, added clarity and edge-to-edge distortion-free image is, at least to me, worth the extra coin. If I’m paying $10K for a set of world class binos, I’ll spend the extra $2-3K to push them over the top.

 

[NateSavannah]

Ethers are nice and light, with an improved eyebox. It’s really the objectives that seem to make more of an impact. The custom RPO’s in my DTNVG give them that little extra push to make them really special. Not an epic difference, but also lighter and 1/4” shorter than .MIL objectives — which doesn’t *sound* like much, but looks and feela like more. Then the slight, but noticeable, added clarity and edge-to-edge distortion-free image is, at least to me, worth the extra coin. If I’m paying $10K for a set of world class binos, I’ll spend the extra $2-3K to push them over the top.

View attachment 7420225

ya ill be honest If i could do it again I probably wouldnt get the ethers. Its not a big enough difference to be that noticeable. pvs14 eyepiece accessories dont fit them. and with the reputation to scratch Im afraid to be all horta driving my nods into a swampy drink with them. if you know what I mean.

 

[TheHorta]

ya ill be honest If i could do it again I probably wouldnt get the ethers. Its not a big enough difference to be that noticeable. pvs14 eyepiece accessories dont fit them. and with the reputation to scratch Im afraid to be all horta driving my nods into a swampy drink with them. if you know what I mean.

Same place that did my RPO’s also replaced the cells in my Carson eyepieces. No practical weight savings there, but it did improve the edge distortion I was seeing at the very 10% of the outside ring. Now the view is perfectly sharp and distortion free 100% across the entire FOV.

 

[NateSavannah]

Ive got edge distortion but the eye boxes are huge. whatever. its only money. ill throw some more at it and see what happens.

 

[jeffl838]

Wait, bnvd ul’s have polymer objective lens?? Are there sac lenses that can be replaced??

I was thinking about a set but that’s a near deal breaker. Might go normal bnvd if that’s the case

 

[GriffSniper]

Ethers are nice and light, with an improved eyebox. It’s really the objectives that seem to make more of an impact. The custom RPO’s in my DTNVG give them that little extra push to make them really special. Not an epic difference, but also lighter and 1/4” shorter than .MIL objectives — which doesn’t *sound* like much, but looks and feela like more. Then the slight, but noticeable, added clarity and edge-to-edge distortion-free image is, at least to me, worth the extra coin. If I’m paying $10K for a set of world class binos, I’ll spend the extra $2-3K to push them over the top.

View attachment 7420225

Forgive my ignorance but what are RPOs? Could you explain further what the extra $2k-3k is being put towards to put your NV over the top? Where did you get these from? It would really stretch me thin to get WP unfilm DTNVGs, wilcox G24 mount and MAWL C1+ including an additional $2k-3k ontop of all that. However, if it was really worth it.... I might consider it.

 

[TheHorta]

Forgive my ignorance but what are RPOs? Could you explain further what the extra $2k-3k is being put towards to put your NV over the top? Where did you get these from? It would really stretch me thin to get WP unfilm DTNVGs, wilcox G24 mount and MAWL C1+ including an additional $2k-3k ontop of all that. However, if it was really worth it.... I might consider it.

They’re not available just yet. I’ve been asked not to share the source with anyone for another month or two. I blabbed a little a couple of months ago and a few people started banging on their door, so they politely told me to shut my yap — at least about where I got them. A few others here know details.

So, as soon as they lift my gag order, I’ll sing like a jailbird.

 

[zinny]

So break down of NVDs bnvds.
Reg bnvd = bnvd housing + milspec optics + 14esq power interface
bnvd ul = bnvd housing + light weight optics +14esq power interface
Pre-gen (mist likely next gen) mini b = bnvd housing + light weight optics + push button power interface.

For griffsniper. We are talking about the three major components of a bino device, all swappable ar15 like to a degree. You have the tubes, the body housing, and the optics. So in a standard bnvd (binocular night vision device) you have: two tubes, one housing, and two sets of optics (two objective and two oculars.

A standard dtnvg has milspec glass, the same ones used on pvs-14s. These milspec glass combined with l3 filmless wp tubes and the dtnvg housing gets you to 10 grand at tnvc. What horta did was purchase for 3 grand a set of light weight optics from a dealer and had the milspec optics replaced.

Is it worth it is of course subjectve, sadly I cant help with that question, but we are definetly in the realm where tings may start to become nominal. But then again people have stated in the past that pvs15 optics are superior to the milspec 14s.

 

[jeffl838]

So break down of NVDs bnvds.
Reg bnvd = bnvd housing + milspec optics + 14esq power interface
bnvd ul = bnvd housing + light weight optics +14esq power interface
Pre-gen (mist likely next gen) mini b = bnvd housing + light weight optics + push button power interface.

For griffsniper. We are talking about the three major components of a bino device, all swappable ar15 like to a degree. You have the tubes, the body housing, and the optics. So in a standard bnvd (binocular night vision device) you have: two tubes, one housing, and two sets of optics (two objective and two oculars.

A standard dtnvg has milspec glass, the same ones used on pvs-14s. These milspec glass combined with l3 filmless wp tubes and the dtnvg housing gets you to 10 grand at tnvc. What horta did was purchase for 3 grand a set of light weight optics from a dealer and had the milspec optics replaced.

Is it worth it is of course subjectve, sadly I cant help with that question, but we are definetly in the realm where tings may start to become nominal. But then again people have stated in the past that pvs15 optics are superior to the milspec 14s.

Nice explanation, much appreciated. Do you know if the light weight optics in the bnvd glass? Or polymer like 31's?

 

[GriffSniper]

Thanks for the explanation. I guess the heart of my question originally was in the $10k price range, can i do better than the DTNVGs from TNVC?

Separate question, do you give up any durability going to the lightweight housing vs milspec? I'm all for lightweight but i want somwthing tried/true and durable as well as waterproof. Also, can i spend the $2k-3k later and upgrade or do you need to do this from the beginning?

 

[TheHorta]

Thanks for the explanation. I guess the heart of my question originally was in the $10k price range, can i do better than the DTNVGs from TNVC?

Separate question, do you give up any durability going to the lightweight housing vs milspec? I'm all for lightweight but i want somwthing tried/true and durable as well as waterproof. Also, can i spend the $2k-3k later and upgrade or do you need to do this from the beginning?

I got my DTNVGs from a different vendor (UNV) and upgraded them a year later.

 

[zinny]

Jeffl838:
the light weight optics NVD uses are from the same company that makes the optics the horta's using, yes they are polymer. I was corrected by another memeber in horta's super glass thread, they are not dep. On glass vs polymer front. I dont have an opinnion. 31s correct me if im wrong are polymer, of course .mil and .gov has warranty and servicing.

GriffSniper:
At 10 grand I'd say your choices would be the DTNVG or the NVD BNVD currently. The DTNVS is supposed to drop in Oct but covid had already delayed it from sept so cant be 100% it'll drop next month. If the pricing structure follows the preorder from nightvision inc, it'd be around a $500 upcharge to the DTNVS. pros are lighter weight and "enhanced for greater reliability" on their site. Sam from TNVC have told people on arfcom to hold off if you are in the market. so thats around the 18ishoz "market"

The BNVD UL and mini b are around or under 16oz/1lb, thats 31 territory with adjustable diopter and 10 yr warranty, if your're a weight weenie this is tip territory. Alternatively DTNVGs or the DTNVS with the light weight optics should get around this weight as well. so these would all be around 2-3 grand more than than the 1- grand range

I dont have enough experience using polymer optics in general to have an opinnion. My day job involves snooping, so I was one of those individuals horta alluded to who with a whiff ended up knocking on the front door. Got a quick CV of one of the heads, I can for a fact state the team that developed the optics knew what they were doing. But yeah marginal gainz and all. I believe the ether eyepieces are worth it so its definitely YMMV.

 

[Victor-TNVC]

Thanks for the explanation. I guess the heart of my question originally was in the $10k price range, can i do better than the DTNVGs from TNVC?

Separate question, do you give up any durability going to the lightweight housing vs milspec? I'm all for lightweight but i want somwthing tried/true and durable as well as waterproof. Also, can i spend the $2k-3k later and upgrade or do you need to do this from the beginning?

Hi, thank you for the consideration. We also do better pricing for Hide members as well. PM me if ya like.

Also thought I'd chime in on the ether lens. I've used them for awhile and I find them worthwhile for astronomy purposes for goggles and Afocal purposes for their edge to edge sharpness while in my telescopes diagonal but not for hunting, etc. IMHO. Just not worth the extra costs.

 

[TheHorta]

Thanks for the explanation. I guess the heart of my question originally was in the $10k price range, can i do better than the DTNVGs from TNVC?

Separate question, do you give up any durability going to the lightweight housing vs milspec? I'm all for lightweight but i want somwthing tried/true and durable as well as waterproof. Also, can i spend the $2k-3k later and upgrade or do you need to do this from the beginning?

First question: I don’t think you can ever do better than TNVC. Also, come resale time, TNVC NODs will generally hold more of their value due to reputation alone, and their 10-year warranty — knowing they will be in business in 10 years, where many others may not. There’s a measure of peace that comes with buying from TNVC.

For that benefit, you get to wait and learn patience, Grasshopper.

I would put in my DTNVG order with TNVC today, with the caveat that you really want the DTNVS should they become available during your wait. If the DTNVS are delayed beyond reason, then take the G’s. They ain’t half bad.

 

[jeffl838]

Understand that lightweight glass in UL BNVD is polymer.

One more question (sorry): DEP is or is not polymer? Is it a different polymer from the UL BNVD's? I personally am putting a hard pass on polymer lenses.

 

[JonLSU]

As far as the laser, you could just order a Perst 3 and get a full power laser and save a little over a grand. I just got a perst 4 in and man this thing is bright and well made.

 

[RyanScott]

I suppose if supporting the Russian defense industrial base is a value of yours you could do that.

 

[jeffl838]

I suppose if supporting the Russian defense industrial base is a value of yours you could do that.

You keep your civ power APTIAL or whatever and when the russians attempt beach landings, i'll be shooting them and you'll be wondering why the FDA regulates the power of lasers. Good luck loser.

Most people's values are owning the right equipment, and yes, I will gladly pay some russian L3 1000 dollars for a high power laser because US L3 won't sell one to me - the spirit of the second amendment borderline demands it. If you bought a gray market used la5, you have no warranty and did nothing to support the american company - not to mention the LA5 is made of plastic and breaks. If you have a stolen one you supported theft from taxpayers. If you were able to make an agency purchase as a cop, you participated in a program that infringes on the second amendment (only special people get good weapon aiming devices!!). Pick your poison. The most american option is the one that forces a free market to innovate. It sounds like your only value is fudd-ism.

 

[RyanScott]

I’ll stick to my MAWL C1, content in the knowledge that BE Meyers isn’t using my money to develop the next generation of lasers to be used against the US. Also if I break it, they can fix it just up the road instead of having to send it to Russia.

 

[SkyScrapin]

My Mini-Bs are far superior to my PVS-15s in all categories. They both share L3 Filmless White tubes. I'd go with the Mini-B every, damn, time.

 

[jeffl838]

I’ll stick to my MAWL C1, content in the knowledge that BE Meyers isn’t using my money to develop the next generation of lasers to be used against the US. Also if I break it, they can fix it just up the road instead of having to send it to Russia.

Have fun in your fantasy land where the ruskies are spending that extreme amount of small arms laser revenue on an invasion against the US.

Hints:
- the NV dept is the smallest part of L3; the revenue from international perst sales is LOW
- I'm arming 2 people with more capable lasers for every MAWL you buy. In your fantasy invasion, I'll have a unit twice your size with more capability. Have fun being a pAtRiOt (read: fudd)

Good luck shipping your laser to get fixed during your fantasy scenario. I hope you own 3.

 

[NateSavannah]

Have fun in your fantasy land where the ruskies are spending that extreme amount of small arms laser revenue on an invasion against the US.

Hints:
- the NV dept is the smallest part of L3; the revenue from international perst sales is LOW
- I'm arming 2 people with more capable lasers for every MAWL you buy. In your fantasy invasion, I'll have a unit twice your size with more capability. Have fun being a pAtRiOt (read: fudd)

Good luck shipping your laser to get fixed during your fantasy scenario. I hope you own 3.

Jeff Im sensing you feel very strongly about the topic.

 

[RyanScott]

Invasion? A friend of mine has had gunfire aimed at him with Russian lasers, by Russian nationals that subsequently fell down and became good Russians. This isn’t hypothetical.

 

[jeffl838]

Invasion? A friend of mine has had gunfire aimed at him with Russian lasers, by Russian nationals that subsequently fell down and became good Russians. This isn’t hypothetical.

It's funny how these always start off as "a friend of mine"

I'm gonna let you in on a secret - there is no leap-ahead laser tech in the military small arms space and there probably won't be until we start moving sensors to different spectrums

Jeff Im sensing you feel very strongly about the topic.

Some people are extremely and willingly uneducated and make the community look retarded, and it gives the opposing communities ammunition for cancelling us. It's not the specific topic - it's the fact that some moderate but anti-gun leaning person will meet some idiot screaming about the communists and "a friend of theirs" and become even more anti-gun

 

[RyanScott]

Other than VCSL lasers the advancements are really in ergonomics and switching.

In any case I sent the link to my friend, who has an account here, and he can respond if he would like.

I have no interest in supporting non western defense industries. Every dollar of profit they make off of us is a dollar their government doesn’t have to directly invest.

 

[jeffl838]

Other than VCSL lasers the advancements are really in ergonomics and switching.

In any case I sent the link to my friend, who has an account here, and he can respond if he would like.

I have no interest in supporting non western defense industries. Every dollar of profit they make off of us is a dollar their government doesn’t have to directly invest.

Man I wonder what the dod/ic was thinking when they bought millions of dollars of mi17's and contractor support from them. It's almost like that's how international trade works. Don'w they know that every dollar we spend is a dollar they don't?!? LOL

 

[RyanScott]

International trade in defense items isn’t the same as trading potatoes. And the Mi-17 deal was shit, they spent more on Russian helicopters than rebuilt CH-47s would cost. Isn’t Rosoboronexport still on the SDN list?

 

[TheHorta]

I like turtles.

 

[Choid]

I like turtles.

Thoughts on Yertle?

 

[GriffSniper]

Andddd this is officially the first thread I've posted that's ever been derailed! Where's my snipershide patch for this? haha

Thanks for the advice guys, keep it coming.

 

[jeffl838]

International trade in defense items isn’t the same as trading potatoes. And the Mi-17 deal was shit, they spent more on Russian helicopters than rebuilt CH-47s would cost. Isn’t Rosoboronexport still on the SDN list?

eVeRy pOtAtO wE sElL iS a PoTaTo In ThE hAnDs oF eNmY

 

[NateSavannah]

Andddd this is officially the first thread I've posted that's ever been derailed! Where's my snipershide patch for this? haha

Thanks for the advice guys, keep it coming.

congrats brother. in the spirit of derailments this left the tracks somewhere in russia. good luck getting it back.

 

[TheHorta]

Thoughts on Yertle?

Yertle was framed. The turtles that made Yertles throne were jealous democrats that fell asleep on the job.

Just like the tortoise and the hare. Tortoise cheated.

 

[RyanScott]

OP, other considerations: given the timeline for your tubes you might want to preorder a DTNVS. It’ll be available by then, barring some major issue. You could also save money by getting the RNVG if you don’t need the tubes to fold back against the helmet or shut themselves off.

I like the MAWL because the switching takes care of the spill from the Illuminator. No need to dial it up or down manually. The switching is intuitive.

 

[GriffSniper]

OP, other considerations: given the timeline for your tubes you might want to preorder a DTNVS. It’ll be available by then, barring some major issue. You could also save money by getting the RNVG if you don’t need the tubes to fold back against the helmet or shut themselves off.

I like the MAWL because the switching takes care of the spill from the Illuminator. No need to dial it up or down manually. The switching is intuitive.

Thanks for the advice! So if I understand this right, the general consensus on the NVG setup is to order the DTNVS (rather than DTNVG) due to marginal increase in both cost and performance, correct (as well as lighter weight)? 10k is a lot of money and I have no issue dropping another 500 for a lighter weight setup with marginal improvement if this really is the case. I'll reach out to TNVC and see what the deal is with the DTNVS if i get some confirmation this is the way to go.

 

[Choid]

Yertle was framed. The turtles that made Yertles throne were jealous democrats that fell asleep on the job.

Just like the tortoise and the hare. Tortoise cheated.

I don't want to veer of the topic of communists, so I will mention that it is possible Dr. Seuss was a commie simp.

 

[RyanScott]

It’s $250/Oz which could be worth it to you or not. Or you could buy ether eyepieces which are $600/Oz but have other benefits that may or may not be worth it to you.

 

[jeffl838]

Thanks for the advice! So if I understand this right, the general consensus on the NVG setup is to order the DTNVS (rather than DTNVG) due to marginal increase in both cost and performance, correct (as well as lighter weight)? 10k is a lot of money and I have no issue dropping another 500 for a lighter weight setup with marginal improvement if this really is the case. I'll reach out to TNVC and see what the deal is with the DTNVS if i get some confirmation this is the way to go.

I would also think about whether or not you consider manual gain to be a critical feature, which BNVD's have.

 

[NateSavannah]

I would also think about whether or not you consider manual gain to be a critical feature, which BNVD's have.

now thats something I would fight someone in the street over. I love being able to control my gain. Democrats love autogain. fight me.

 

[TheHorta]

now thats something I would fight someone in the street over. I love being able to control my gain. Democrats love autogain. fight me.

You little traitor commie bitch whore. Auto gain or DIE!

 

[Frog05]

 

[WhereNow&How]

China is who we should be worried about, not the Russians. I speculate the Russians will be our friend in the end.

I also used to speculate on some nice Flir 640 Boson units, so my speculation ain't exactly 100%.