Choose My Optic Setup Part 1: Scope

[rxthurm]

Hello,

I've spent hours on this forum reading as much as I can. I feel like I have a pretty good sense of things from reading, but there are a lot of people that have years, if not decades, of experience. I'm hoping to draw on this to help select my optic setup for my newly completed rifle. My mind is open to any input as your experience is likely greater than mine. I've read the sticky on asking these questions so here it goes. Part 1 will focus on optic, and once that is finalized, part 2 will be about mounting.

I just finished building a PWS MK218 (semi auto, 18" barrel) in 308. I intend this to be a multipurpose rifle. This includes precision shooting fundamentals practice, potentially hunting, doubtful on competition. I really just wanted a larger caliber rifle to practice shooting at further distances than the standard .223. I will be shooting daytime with some dawn/dusk thrown in. The rifle range I'm a member of has a max distance of 600 yards, so that's it for now. I don't see shooting past 1000 yards with this firearm for logistical and ballistic reasons. Specs of scope? I'm not really set on this. I've seen common specs are FFP, 30-34mmg tube, 50-56mm objective. I've seen various magnification ranges 4-16, 4-20, 5-25, 7-35. I'm not sure what is appropriate for the ranges listed above. I can't imagine bigger is always better when there is a limit on range. Regarding MOA vs MIL, I have not formally practiced with either, and I've understood that it may be best to start off with MIL? My price range is ideally $1500-2500. I'm not opposed to jumping up into NF/ZCO/S&B prices if it's justified. FWIW, I intend for my next rifle to be a custom precision bolt rifle with longer range capabilities. I would be willing to spend more on glass on that rifle, and have something more modest, that will allow me to learn a lot, on my current MK218.

From what I gathered, Leupold Mark5HD, Maven RS3/4, Steiner T5Xi, Vortex Razor or Viper, Kahles, NF ATACR, ZCO, USO, and S&B are all potential contenders with various pros/cons. So please, have at it and help me choose my next scope!

 

[Changed]

Buy a Gen 2 Vortex Razor in Mil. For a 308 I'd be comfortable with either a 3-18 or 4.5-27. Buy the mount of your choice and get shooting. After a few months/years you'll sell that rig and end up with a bolt gun. Buy what you see the most of in the PX. Razors sell like hot cakes.

 

[RTV]

what do you plan on doing with this rifle once you get that custom bolt gun?
sounds like this is primarily going to be a long range practice rifle and not really a hunting rifle but you just want to leave that door open?

 

[rxthurm]

what do you plan on doing with this rifle once you get that custom bolt gun?
sounds like this is primarily going to be a long range practice rifle and not really a hunting rifle but you just want to leave that door open?

Yes I will keep the rifle for ammo availability, range, practice etc.

 

[bohica17]

I would seriously look into the new Burris XTR III I was skeptical at first but I love it. I have the 5.5-30 but for what you described you don’t need that much magnification. The 3.3-18 will be fine.

 

[RTV]

Yes I will keep the rifle for ammo availability, range, practice etc.

Well then in that case if you can swing it I would get a ZCO 420 for now and then when you are ready to upgrade to the bolt gun for long range work just transfer the ZCO to the bolt gun and buy a LPVO like the Razor G3 1-10x for the Mk218.

Still enough magnification to have fun at longer range as a backup but it would also give you something completely different to enjoy/learn.


Thats just what I personally would do.

 

[rxthurm]

Well then in that case if you can swing it I would get a ZCO 420 for now and then when you are ready to upgrade to the bolt gun for long range work just transfer the ZCO to the bolt gun and buy a LPVO like the Razor G3 1-10x for the Mk218.

Still enough magnification to have fun at longer range as a backup but it would also give you something completely different to enjoy/learn.


Thats just what I personally would do.

Thanks for the input! I'm curious, if I didn't want to shell out the money for ZCO and the future bolt gun wasn't in the picture, what would your recommendation be?

 

[powdahound76]

Go to a vendor. Might I suggest MHS.

look through the ones that meet your needs and budget.

 

[Glassaholic]

OP, you’re going to get a thousand opinions here because there is no perfect combination as we all have our bias’ and preferences.

Here’s a few thoughts for your consideration. I am not a fan of heavy or long scopes on a gas gun. My heaviest scope is a TT at 40oz and it sits on my AI AT where I really don’t care about weight or length. But on most of my other rifles I do care about weight.

Do yourself a favor and narrow down your choices by reticle. Do you want a tree reticle or no tree? Do you prefer thin reticles or want something thicker for easier acquisition in shadow/low contrast situations. Do you feel you need illumination or not?

ZCO and Schmidt prices are justified, the other scopes you mention just can’t compete except the Kahles K318i (buy used as it is not worth full price where ZCO and Schmidt are in the equation) and the new March 4.5-28x52 which I’ve had on my MDRx 308 but will soon find a home on one of my bolt rifles. The MDRx is so short I prefer a shorter/lighter scope and have 3 LPVO’s I’m looking at right now.

 

[rxthurm]

OP, you’re going to get a thousand opinions here because there is no perfect combination as we all have our bias’ and preferences.

Here’s a few thoughts for your consideration. I am not a fan of heavy or long scopes on a gas gun. My heaviest scope is a TT at 40oz and it sits on my AI AT where I really don’t care about weight or length. But on most of my other rifles I do care about weight.

Do yourself a favor and narrow down your choices by reticle. Do you want a tree reticle or no tree? Do you prefer thin reticles or want something thicker for easier acquisition in shadow/low contrast situations. Do you feel you need illumination or not?

ZCO and Schmidt prices are justified, the other scopes you mention just can’t compete except the Kahles K318i (buy used as it is not worth full price where ZCO and Schmidt are in the equation) and the new March 4.5-28x52 which I’ve had on my MDRx 308 but will soon find a home on one of my bolt rifles. The MDRx is so short I prefer a shorter/lighter scope and have 3 LPVO’s I’m looking at right now.

Thank you! Even with the few replies to this post, I've switched gears from looking at the common, larger 5-25 to more scopes that are 3-18 or 4-16 to save on weight and likely unnecessary magnification for ranges.

Regarding reticles, I think starting with conservative tree reticle is something I'd like to try. That way, I know if I can learn on it and enjoy it. I definitely have narrowed down my options. Thanks again.

 

[RTV]

Thanks for the input! I'm curious, if I didn't want to shell out the money for ZCO and the future bolt gun wasn't in the picture, what would your recommendation be?

for a long range precision semi?
ATACR 4-16x42 because i really like the Mil-XT reticle, phenomenally compact package with the lowpro turrets, proven ruggedness.

but once you drop down from ZCO the choices open up drastically and that's just what i would personally go with.
a lot of people me included like to keep things short/lightish on semi's but even just looking at those you have several options.

 

[Chickentoast]

I think the biggest benefit would be to have a look through Tier 1 and 2. Say, a ZCO and a Mark5HD. You will then know whether you value spending the extra 1-2K. If you can't look through them, I'd pick the specs (fov and reticle most important to me) you like from one of the top tier 2 choices, and go with it. I like the XTR3 for the best of Tier 2, due to the massive difference in FOV for the tier, and I have tried a bunch in this tier. I have a ZCO, and it is much better, but completely unnecessary for how I shoot (hobby only, nice days, etc.) I have yet to look through them in conditions where I could only make the shot using the ZCO, but that is generally the practical argument made. I see it most simply as Ferrari vs. Vette.

 

[devildog93]

Primary arms glx 2.5-10. I have gone back and forth on optics for my ar-10 and have settled back to something in the mid-range.
https://www.primaryarms.com/glx-2.5-10x44-ffp-rifle-scope-acss-griffin-mil-reticle
I have tried a 5x prism, which worked fine, but didn't hit the high end I wanted. I tried a burris rt-6, same thing. Something 2-10,3-12, something in there I think makes sense. The glx scope has turret stops and locks, gets good reviews, and I like the reticle for ranging. I have access to a 1500 yard range, so hitting various ranges quickly is a plus for me. I have also run a sig tango 4 4-16 on it, which worked all right, but it had a simple crosshair reticle that wasn't real interesting. It would be good on something I plan to do a lot of dialing with. I try to stay in the sub-1000 dollar optics as much as I can because I am still playing mix and match with optics and rifles. If I did not keep the price point down I would probably get run out of the house.

 

[nutation]

You don't need super-high magnification. 15x is usable for silhouette targets out to about a mile. 3-15 or 4-16 should meet your needs.

Christmas tree reticles are good for rapidly transitioning between targets at different ranges, which makes sense for a semiauto. They also provide a good way to visualize the drop and drift at different ranges. On the other hand, it's also easier to get lost in the reticle, or miscount which branch of the tree you're on. But, nobody says you have to use the tree, either.

I second @Changed's recommendation for the Vortex Razor 3-18x50 with an EBR-7C (mil christmas tree) reticle. If you end up liking something else more later on, you can easily sell it, or keep it as a decent backup scope (they do occasionally break).

 

[nutation]

Slightly off topic, but since you mentioned that you're practicing fundamentals, if you have an adjustable gas block you may want to turn the gas off while you practice recoil management. The three-stage recoil of a semi-auto makes this quite a bit trickier.

 

[rxthurm]

You don't need super-high magnification. 15x is usable for silhouette targets out to about a mile. 3-15 or 4-16 should meet your needs.

Christmas tree reticles are good for rapidly transitioning between targets at different ranges, which makes sense for a semiauto. They also provide a good way to visualize the drop and drift at different ranges. On the other hand, it's also easier to get lost in the reticle, or miscount which branch of the tree you're on. But, nobody says you have to use the tree, either.

I second @Changed's recommendation for the Vortex Razor 3-18x50 with an EBR-7C (mil christmas tree) reticle. If you end up liking something else more later on, you can easily sell it, or keep it as a decent backup scope (they do occasionally break).

Thanks for your input! Vortex Razor is definitely on my list. From what I see, the major drawback to this is the weight at roughly a pound more than its competitors. If I'm shooting for a 10ish pound total gun, that's close to 10% extra. Just something I was considering.

 

[RTV]

Thanks for your input! Vortex Razor is definitely on my list. From what I see, the major drawback to this is the weight at roughly a pound more than its competitors. If I'm shooting for a 10ish pound total gun, that's close to 10% extra. Just something I was considering.

If this is your first scope the vortex is definitely recommend to be on the short list just in case of user error/ newb mistakes their warranty covers accidental damage/negligence as well... anything besides intentional damage.

Pro tip: don't oil your charging handle it will splash it onto your eyepiece.

 

[rxthurm]

If this is your first scope the vortex is definitely recommend to be on the short list just in case of user error/ newb mistakes their warranty covers accidental damage/negligence as well... anything besides intentional damage.

Pro tip: don't oil your charging handle it will splash it onto your eyepiece.

Thanks for the tip. There is definitely a significant amount of oil from the factory. I’ll take care to wipe it down before I shoot!

 

[WillHugh]

Easy! For a sub 20 inch gas gun, either a Leupold mk5 3-18, or a Nightforce 4-16, and mount it in a Badger Ordnance Condition one mount. Light weight, durable, and plenty of magnification for that rifle. The larger scopes you're considering would be great on a bolt gun, but are overkill (weight and magnification wise) for the PWS. If you go with a bigger optic it will disadvantage you when you want to get out of prone and run it as a heavy carbine.

Two inches shorter, but same rifle for reference

 

[rxthurm]

Easy! For a sub 20 inch gas gun, either a Leupold mk5 3-18, or a Nightforce 4-16, and mount it in a Badger Ordnance Condition one mount. Light weight, durable, and plenty of magnification for that rifle. The larger scopes you're considering would be great on a bolt gun, but are overkill (weight and magnification wise) for the PWS. If you go with a bigger optic it will disadvantage you when you want to get out of prone and run it as a heavy carbine.

Two inches shorter, but same rifle for reference
View attachment 7601246

I like it! What reticle did you go with? Also, what bipod did you go with?

 

[WillHugh]

I like it! What reticle did you go with? Also, what bipod did you go with?

TMR reticle, but only because Cabellas decided to blow them out for $900 last summer. Kind of kicking myself for not buying three of them. It works well for my purposes though. Bipod is an Atlas.

 

[CK1.0]

Vortex Razor Gen2 = Toyota Tacoma of the scope world, checks pretty much all the boxes, reliable, and retains its resale value. If you want to spend more, the ZCO's, Minox's, and NF's, etc are nice, but it's a diminishing returns on funds situation: they won't really allow you to do much more than a Razor even though they cost more.

That said, the whole scope game is changing right now... new comers like Arken have upset the apple cart and the money it used to take to score good glass is dropping fast. If you can find an Arken SH-4 Gen2, buy it, you might not ever outgrow it.

~15x should be plenty for 600 yards, but if it might eventually end up on a bolt gun for shooting further, going with higher magnification might not be a bad idea. Remember, most scopes have a sweet spot somewhere towards the middle, and that's where most end up running them. I have a 24x scope, but I spend most of my time at 15-18x.

edit: P.S. since you're not already married to MOA/MIL: go MIL/MRAD, that's the "language" that most people who shoot long range speak.

 

[rxthurm]

For those who are following along, I believe I have narrowed it down a bit. Considering weight, cost, reticle options, I believe my top choice is the NF ATACR 4-16x42 in Mil-XT.

The second option in the Burris XTR3 3.3-18x50 in SCR2. If they were to come out with an illumination model, that would certainly get my attention.

I'm not enthused about the weight of the Vortex Razor HD gen2 nor am I sold on the reticle offerings of the Mk5HD 3.6-18x44. They offer an illuminated, non-Tremor, tree reticle in the higher powered Mk5HD, but not the lower one. It seems like the Kahles 3-18x50 w/ SKMR3 would be suitable if found used. And it seems universal that for a bump up of another $1000-1100, the ZCO 4-20x50 would be fantastic. I'm sure there are other brands/options I'm overlooking (Mavis, Steiner, Arken, Tract, etc).

 

[rxthurm]

Does anybody have any definitive guidance on the NF ATACR 4-16x42 vs 4-16x50? I’ve read an article about the pros and cons of the 42 vs 50 mm objective lens. It sounds like the ATACR 42mm has low profile turrets. Any major reason to spend a little more to go up to 4-20x50? Thanks!

 

[sleeplz]

Go tasco

 

[RTV]

Does anybody have any definitive guidance on the NF ATACR 4-16x42 vs 4-16x50? I’ve read an article about the pros and cons of the 42 vs 50 mm objective lens. It sounds like the ATACR 42mm has low profile turrets. Any major reason to spend a little more to go up to 4-20x50? Thanks!

The 4-16x50 is exactly as it seems. A little bit longer, a little bit heavier, and not as low profile turrets as the 4-16x42.

The ATACR 4-20s biggest negative IMO is that for 600$ more you can be taking home a ZCO420. Other than that I'm sure its a great scope like all the ATACRs