Clean bore to fouled bore..

[Tun_x]

Let me start by saying that I know this subject has been beaten to death. So I don't want this to turn into a "how many rounds between cleaning" debate , but rather a how many rounds until you start getting some semblance of accuracy back after cleaning. I decided to clean my riffle just to be preventive . I had 525 rounds down the tube since the last one. Accuracy wasn't an issue and this is where I made my first mistake , but that is another subject. The Riffle is a Rem 700 sps that has been cut and re-crowned to 21" and is residing in a B&C medalist stock. After cleaning it shot three five-shot groups all at about 1.5" or slightly greater before finally tightening up to what I call normal for the riffle which is about .75" I thought I may had inadvertently damaged my barrel while cleaning . I guess my question is , is this normal to take so many rounds before getting accuracy back after cleaning ?

thank in advance

Jason

 

[5Redman8]

Re: Clean bore to fouled bore..

For a factory barrel, I have heard some claim it can take a 100 rounds before regaining the accuracy.

I have never experienced it myself. On 90% of the custom barrels I have had, one shot is all that is needed to get the barrel back to grouping. With several, the cold clean bore shot is within the subsequent group.

 

[brand692]

Re: Clean bore to fouled bore..

Wow. 100 rounds? Thats insane! But it's hard to say with a factory tube.

For me, its always been 3-5 rounds on Kriegers, Schnieders, and Obermeyers.

 

[crockett007]

Re: Clean bore to fouled bore..

Kind of a coincedence, I kust got back this am from shooting my SPS - 20" .308(B&C A2) with a totally clean barrel. First shot was 1.5 moa high @100!
2nd and third round same same......about 8 rounds to get back to zero and the usual .5 moa group. Won't be cleaning for awhile.....

 

[5Redman8]

Re: Clean bore to fouled bore..

Yeah....I think a 100 rds is ridiculous and probably overstated.

 

[Winny]

Re: Clean bore to fouled bore..

In my personal experience, and this is only MY personal experience, I have found that my PacNor and Broughton barrels take about 20-30 round to settle down. Like posted above, the last two times after cleaning by clean cold bore has been off by 1.5+ minutes. However, my rifle with the Krieger barrel loved to be clean, accuracy seemed to become an issue in as little as 20 rounds. Just my observations.

B.

 

[Tun_x]

Re: Clean bore to fouled bore..

Its back to normal now, but I thought I may have damaged the barrel/chamber.. The bad groups were about 1" high and continued to move towards "zero" as I fired more rounds.. I guess if nothing else its good data to have on the behavior of the gun after cleaning.


Jason

 

[fdkay]

Re: Clean bore to fouled bore..

What you clean your bore with can affect this also.

Many folks recommend Shooters Choice and regular old #9 is another fav.

No oil!
A lot of people will use a mixture that contains penetrating oil. While this is good if you are going to store your rifle, it takes a while to burn that residue out of your bore.

If you insist on using a product containing oil, run a patch of shooters choice or #9 through followed by several clean, dry patches and see if that makes a difference.

 

[Tun_x]

Re: Clean bore to fouled bore..

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: fdkay</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What you clean your bore with can affect this also.

Many folks recommend Shooters Choice and regular old #9 is another fav.

No oil!
A lot of people will use a mixture that contains penetrating oil. While this is good if you are going to store your rifle, it takes a while to burn that residue out of your bore.

If you insist on using a product containing oil, run a patch of shooters choice or #9 through followed by several clean, dry patches and see if that makes a difference.</div></div>

I used Montana Extreme copper killer .. I will not be using this stuff again because it smells like hell.. By the time I was finished I had a screaming headache. I'm fairly sure I got it all out of the barrel .

 

[rwlewis]

Re: Clean bore to fouled bore..

In my experiences it takes five to ten shot to get back on track. If it took a hundred i'd never clean the gun again!


1200+ rounds down and cleaned it 6 times.

 

[Phylodog]

Re: Clean bore to fouled bore..

I don't know how many it takes to get back but it's somewhere less than 10. I fire 10 rounds after cleaning before it gets put away and considered ready to go.

 

[Graham]

Re: Clean bore to fouled bore..

Are you using moly-coated bullets?

I've seen it take between 40 and 60 rounds to get a consistent zero back with moly bullets after removing almost everything from the bore.

 

[Tun_x]

Re: Clean bore to fouled bore..

No moly bullets here ..

 

[Sniper1*]

Re: Clean bore to fouled bore..

Just got back from the NTOA Tactical Precision Long Rifle II class. During the class the instructor wanted to clean every 20 rounds and asks that all of us follow that. I did until Wednesday. I could not stay on with a CCB and chase my zero. It should be noted that upon arrival at the first range session, a 3/4" paster was up and he required a hit on that paster (half the bullet in) to count. I took my rifle in the condition I normally do, fouled, and drilled it. I then began to follow his procedure and struggled for the rest of the time, that is, until I said f*^#k it! And stopped with all the cleaning. Then I started making my quals. A few of the other guys were experiencing the same thing and asked what they should do. Shot answer "stop cleaning that motherfu*%+r!". Now they too were making their Cold Bore and qualifying!

This is not a definitive answer to your question but, it proved something to me and several others!

 

[LoneWolfUSMC]

Re: Clean bore to fouled bore..

Did he instructor give you a reason or was it just the same ole institutionalized thinking?

 

[Sniper1*]

Re: Clean bore to fouled bore..

Lonewolf,
He said it extended barrel life and eventually brought the CCB and follow-up shots to same POI!

I threw the "BS" flag and did it my way eventually!

He also said that a clean barrel is more defensible in court because he could testify as to the condition of the bore before the shot!

 

[Chiller]

Re: Clean bore to fouled bore..

great a clean barrel and have no idea where the bullet will go. solid logic

 

[Sniper1*]

Re: Clean bore to fouled bore..

He said all 16 or 18 guys on his team used this method and they all shot CCB and follow-up same POI and the barrel manuf. said b/c he used his cleaning procedure the barrels showed less wear!

 

[KNIGHT11B4]

Re: Clean bore to fouled bore..

I have had good sucess with Boretec products in combination with my GAP. Very little spread after cleaning. I dont use harsh solvents at all. Mainly Boretec Eliminator.

 

[Chiller]

Re: Clean bore to fouled bore..

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sniper1*</div><div class="ubbcode-body">He said all 16 or 18 guys on his team used this method and they all shot CCB and follow-up same POI and the barrel manuf. said b/c he used his cleaning procedure the barrels showed less wear! </div></div>

YMMV....

clean cold.....bad juju

 

[Alderleet]

Re: Clean bore to fouled bore..

From just talking with folks who shoot quite often;

gun barrels are like car engines, you dont rebuild the damn thing everytime you drive it.

 

[Sniper1*]

Re: Clean bore to fouled bore..

I like Boretech!

I don't like a CCB!

Clean it, shoot it, put it away! (as the instructor would say, "Cruiser Ready!"

 

[LoneWolfUSMC]

Re: Clean bore to fouled bore..

Looks like it may have been good that I didn't go. I don't need more instructors in Indiana pissed at me.

 

[Sniper1*]

Re: Clean bore to fouled bore..

He's not from IN!

 

[LoneWolfUSMC]

Re: Clean bore to fouled bore..

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sniper1*</div><div class="ubbcode-body">He also said that a clean barrel is more defensible in court because he could testify as to the condition of the bore before the shot! </div></div>

Bullshit. And I would have asked him to demonstrate it.

I can testify as to the condition of my primary rifle right now. I can even testify as to exactly how many rounds went down the bore and exactly where the first shot will be. I can testify that my rifle has no deviation from the first round of the shooting day to the last. How is that any less defensible in court than a course of action that results in a deviation?

 

[LoneWolfUSMC]

Re: Clean bore to fouled bore..

I am planning on doing the NTOA Instructors course when I get the chance. I guess it will be interesting at the least.

 

[AUJohn]

Re: Clean bore to fouled bore..

Bloody ignorant to suggest cleaning like that. You clean when it needs it or for storage.
Maybe he thinks he's a benchrester....

 

[bm11]

Re: Clean bore to fouled bore..

It's incredible how horrified old school guys get when you tell them about new "no more cleaning than necessary" protocols.

I was having a conversation with a highpower competitor who was practicing at my range. He has been competing for years, and a pretty damn good shot. He used to compete in benchrest a bunch. When I told him that my barrel hadn't had a good cleaning in 450+ rounds he looked horrified. He told me I was going to ruin my barrel, and that the copper would built up so bad I would have excess pressure issues.

I didn't clean my barrel, but I did get a good chuckle out of it.


Back to the topic at hand: I just gave my rifle the first THOROUGH cleaning in the 1200 or so rounds I have had it. I didn't go nuts with copper solvent or anything, but I gave it a few run throughs with Iosso paste and triple action.

Rather than waste 10 good rounds or so fouling it, I have some non corrosive Brown Bear that isn't worth a shit lying around. How do you guys feel about running 10-20 rounds of that down my barrel to get it fouled again?

 

[Sniper1*]

Re: Clean bore to fouled bore..

Benchrest is exactly where he said he got some of the info.

Also, I want it clear that this is not necessarily the NTOAs position on cleaning, it is his!

LW- he was met with opposition! In fact about half of them stopped cleaning all together. All in all he was a really good guy and a good instructor. It just seemed some of hi experiences on the job have a different outcome than mine and many others.

He just asked that we try it his way! It was not a must do it this way!

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Clean bore to fouled bore..

It's easy enough to demonstrate, even for those advocating the necessity for court.

There is good dirty and bad dirty.

Bad dirty is where accuracy falls off and dictates the necessity to clean.

Good dirty is where the copper and jacketing material fills the tiny inconsistencies in the bore making it more consistent. It's copper that wants to be there, and in fact needs to be there because the physical properties of the barrel will have it no other way.

Personally i think it a way for an instructor to half ass a class by "ordering" students to clean their weapons after each box of ammo fired. Takes up training time making it easy to teach based on the fact they known next to nothing.

I think a valuable lesson was learned which is the goal of any training... today you learned what not to do.

 

[Sniper1*]

Re: Clean bore to fouled bore..

Well said LL!

 

[jbell]

Re: Clean bore to fouled bore..

I was brought up in the benchrest shooting school of thought , I do deviate from cleaning after every 7-10 rounds as is common in the short range benchrest game that is retarded. I do clean after every shooting session usually 50 to 100 rounds. I do let the chemicals (tm solution or eleminator) do the work and brush very little (with a very clean and straight brush) I dont try to get the bore "absoutely" clean but its clean I then dry the bore and then lightly oil the bore w/ Butches gun oil. My reason for outlining this is that I have no poi shift with a cold/clean bore and the accuracy is the same first round to last round shooter dependent. I have experianced this on every rifle I have owned (if they copper bad or dont shoot I dont keep them so they are excluded) the calibers range from 223 , 6mmbr , 243 , 260 , 270 , 308 , 300wm , the only exception was a 6.5x284 that would copper so bad accuracy would drop off at 15 rounds. I clean before I put my rifles away b/c I dont shoot as often as I would like about 2-3 times a month , so I dont like storing them that long dirty. I would like to try the no clean method untill accuracy falls off b/c I beleve it is the best method if you shoot often (heating the bore to burn off any condensation and not letting it sit for a long time like that) but w/ my shooting regiment I have a hard time doing that. I am sorry for being so long winded but I would like some thoughts on this , I know what I am doing works for me however I am open to other methods. So if anyone has actualy experiance with this please let me know.

 

[wiganbear]

Re: Clean bore to fouled bore..

The 700P I had in 308 needed about 10 rounds to settle down but my AW groups from the first round with no change of POI. I do clean it every time I shoot it more out of habit that anything. I may just leave it one day to see what happens

 

[Graham]

Re: Clean bore to fouled bore..

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LoneWolfUSMC</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sniper1*</div><div class="ubbcode-body">He also said that a clean barrel is more defensible in court because he could testify as to the condition of the bore before the shot!</div></div>Bullshit... I can testify as to the condition of my primary rifle right now. I can even testify as to exactly how many rounds went down the bore and exactly where the first shot will be. I can testify that my rifle has no deviation from the first round of the shooting day to the last. How is that any less defensible in court than a course of action that results in a deviation? </div></div>Exactly. I'm with Lonewolf on this one.

Under what circumstances is it a requirement that you testify that your rifle had a clean bore?
That is, unless departmental policy mandates that you keep a clean bore for no good reason to begin with.

 

[skinnypitt]

Re: Clean bore to fouled bore..

Well,when i do clean it usually only takes me a round or two to get back on. I see maybe 1/4 to 1/2 minute difference, usually, with my first round after cleaning. I dont ever use copper solvent because I believe Lowlights philosophy that if the copper stays in there it needs to be there. i use CLR with a brush twice after several patches with and without it to get the initial grime out. Brush goes one way down the tube and is pulled off cause I dont want to pull that crap back into my barrel. Then it is all followed with a few patches. Usually I only clean every 60-100 rds depending on whats coming up. If I am at 60 and have a match i will clean then fire 5 for foulers...then Im ready to go.

Personally I wouldnt ever want to make a critical (life or death) shot right after a cleaning. But i will trust that the guys who do are able to compesate mentally for the difference. I cant immagine anyone arguing that the difference does not exist.