cleaning carbon ring

[fifdynutz]

Hi guys, im working on cleaning out my first semi-nasty carbon ring on a 22cm setup im running. Does anyone have any before and after pictures through their borescope so i know what im looking for? Do i need to bring it back to fully "silver" shiny at the throat? I soaked the barrel with c4 carbon remover for a couple days and have sent about 30 patches through this thing and its still showing a very dark ring in the throat/lands.

Thanks!

 

[Seymour Fish]

Hi guys, im working on cleaning out my first semi-nasty carbon ring on a 22cm setup im running. Does anyone have any before and after pictures through their borescope so i know what im looking for? Do i need to bring it back to fully "silver" shiny at the throat? I soaked the barrel with c4 carbon remover for a couple days and have sent about 30 patches through this thing and its still showing a very dark ring in the throat/lands.

Thanks!

Solvents will not get it. Bronze brush inserted in chamber just short of engaging the lands, and spun is the way. Bad carbon ring may take awhile. Best to do this as part of routine cleaning as takes 1 minute to keep it controlled

 

[fifdynutz]

Solvents will not get it. Bronze brush inserted in chamber just short of engaging the lands, and spun is the way. Bad carbon ring may take awhile. Best to do this as part of routine cleaning as takes 1 minute to keep it controlled

is it best to use the proper size brush or step up a size? Ive scrubbed with nylon brushes so far and its getting marginally better at best

 

[Seymour Fish]

is it best to use the proper size brush or step up a size? Ive scrubbed with nylon brushes so far and its getting marginally better at best

A step up in size may work better. Just be damn careful not to engage the rifling with it. Nylon won’t get it.

 

[Baron23]

Hi guys, im working on cleaning out my first semi-nasty carbon ring on a 22cm setup im running. Does anyone have any before and after pictures through their borescope so i know what im looking for? Do i need to bring it back to fully "silver" shiny at the throat? I soaked the barrel with c4 carbon remover for a couple days and have sent about 30 patches through this thing and its still showing a very dark ring in the throat/lands.

Thanks!

I just soak a bore mop in C4 and let it sit in the throat. Repeat as necessary. Staying on top of it and not letting it get out of hand seems to be key.

Another approach is to use a PVA Muzzle Jimmy and just fill the bore w C4.

Finally, I do follow Frank Green’s advise and use Rem 40x on a slightly oversized patch around a Parker Hale type jag and stroke the bore with short stroking the throat area.

No, I don’t get clean shiny metal but I can see w bore scope that it’s reduced to a stain ( if you will) rather than have some vertical build up.

Personally, I’m not spinning a bronze brush in the throat of my barrel. They are expensive and I’m cheap! Haha

 

[MDof2]

Wrap a patch around a 25cal brush, soak it in SharpShoot R Wipe-Out, and stick in throat and let it sit overnight.
Next morning, remove, soak the brush in Wipeout, and give it a spin on the cordless drill down into the throat. Just in the throat obviously, with a 25 cal brush you won't go far but all you want is to scrub that throat/carbon ring area.
Chase with a dry patch on a 22cal jag or brush, patch, then wet, then dry, etc.

 

[DownhillFromHere]

Hi guys, im working on cleaning out my first semi-nasty carbon ring on a 22cm setup im running. Does anyone have any before and after pictures through their borescope so i know what im looking for? Do i need to bring it back to fully "silver" shiny at the throat? I soaked the barrel with c4 carbon remover for a couple days and have sent about 30 patches through this thing and its still showing a very dark ring in the throat/lands.

Thanks!

Your best bet is to search for posts by @Frank Green of Bartlein Barrels - here is one that basically says spinning a wire brush in a barrel is an excellent way to ruin said barrel. He's posted a fair amount on the topic here on SH.

I've tried any number of approaches, keeping Frank's advice in mind. For example, when I use a bronze brush, I push it all the way through the barrel, take it off, pull the rod out, screw the brush back on a turn or so, repeat 5-10 times, use patch wet with C4, repeat the whole thing until I'm satisfied. I don't clean all the way to bare metal... if there's any fire cracking present, that makes bare-metal cleaning all the more difficult.

Frank does make one recommendation with which I take liberties: that's the use of CLR (Calcium-Lime-Rust cleaner). CLR is the nuclear option for carbon removal, but the stuff must be used with great caution. It will absolutely destroy bluing and will discolor if not destroy many other finishes. Frank's testing showed that it will etch barrel steel if left in place very long. I use CLR very sparingly and ONLY on the carbon ring ONLY after C4 won't soften the ring - I don't use it in the whole barrel. I put a small amount of the stuff on a snug-fitting patch, place the patch over the carbon ring, and let it sit for 10 minutes, 15-20 for really bad rings (which I try to avoid letting build up). Make sure the CLR is completely removed from the barrel and, again, don't let that crap touch anything whose finish you don't want destroyed or damaged (I won't even let it get on my fingers). Then usual cleaning takes care of any remaining ring. Note that CLR won't touch copper fouling.

Again, if Frank says CLR is a bad idea, it's better to listen to him than to me. I won't use CLR unless kinder, gentler methods of attacking the ring fail.

 

[CK1.0]

Before:



After:



These pics are of a 6CM barrel that I brought back to life after believing it was completely dead after 2200rds... except it wasn't.

IMO you'll need a 10" chamber rod like this if you don't already have one:

Amazon product ASIN B00LCT9WCK
I use a nylon brush that is close to the OD of a loaded round (which for me with 6mm means using a .270"/7mm brush). I soak a patch with Bore Tech Eliminator, put it on the nylon brush's end, jam it in there, spin it around a bit, and just let it sit for a while. This is just to loosen the carbon up, sometimes it works great, and sometimes it barely does anything. I've heard Bore Tech C4 is even better for this and some guys swear by using Patch-Out and their Accelerator for this part too.

Then I come back with a patch (or 3) with a little Iosso on it and put that on the end of the oversized nylon brush, and spin it around in there for a bit, and usually, that's what really gets all the crap out of there and cleans it up.

For a long time, I believed all the fairy tales/myths out there about how one is going to ruin their barrels using bronze brushes and/or any abrasives like Iosso or JB bore paste... and most of that is straight-up bullshit. Using bronze/abrasives like a sane person, one quickly finds out that one would have to be a total idiot, or have set out to actually try and ruin a barrel on purpose, in order to do it over a barrel's life using a normal cleaning schedule. These days I use a fresh/brand-new bronze brush and a little Iosso every time I clean.

Use a borescope to monitor what you're up to and make sure you get any/all abrasives out of your barrel when you're done cleaning and you'll be just fine.

The barrel now has 2950rds on it and I've obviously ruined it using bronze brushes and Iosso... here's what 750 yards off a cattle gate/Shmedium bag looks like :



And as far as guys being afraid to use more aggressive techniques for cleaning, IDK what context Frank from Bartlein said what to use, or what not to use, and when... but with brushes at least, I know Greg from Bugholes has said this: "I recommend you keep using your nylon brushes, that way you'll think your barrel is shot out sooner than it is, and I get the chance to sell you another barrel."

Nylon Brushes

It seems a lot of precision shooters favor nylon bore brushes over bronze brushes. Why is this? What I've read suggests that nylon is less abrasive to the bore than bronze, but the way I see it just one copper jacketed bullet forced down the bore at 60,000 psi does more damage to the bore than...

www.snipershide.com

 

[Frank Green]

Before:

View attachment 8145048

After:

View attachment 8145049

These pics are of a 6CM barrel that I brought back to life after believing it was completely dead after 2200rds... except it wasn't.

IMO you'll need a 10" chamber rod like this if you don't already have one:

Amazon product ASIN B00LCT9WCK
I use a nylon brush that is close to the OD of a loaded round (which for me with 6mm means using a .270"/7mm brush). I soak a patch with Bore Tech Eliminator, put it on the nylon brush's end, jam it in there, spin it around a bit, and just let it sit for a while. This is just to loosen the carbon up, sometimes it works great, and sometimes it barely does anything. I've heard Bore Tech C4 is even better for this and some guys swear by using Patch-Out and their Accelerator for this part too.

Then I come back with a patch (or 3) with a little Iosso on it and put that on the end of the oversized nylon brush, and spin it around in there for a bit, and usually, that's what really gets all the crap out of there and cleans it up.

For a long time, I believed all the fairy tales/myths out there about how one is going to ruin their barrels using bronze brushes and/or any abrasives like Iosso or JB bore paste... and most of that is straight-up bullshit. Using bronze/abrasives like a sane person, one quickly finds out that one would have to be a total idiot, or have set out to actually try and ruin a barrel on purpose, in order to do it over a barrel's life using a normal cleaning schedule. These days I use a fresh/brand-new bronze brush and a little Iosso every time I clean.

Use a borescope to monitor what you're up to and make sure you get any/all abrasives out of your barrel when you're done cleaning and you'll be just fine.

The barrel now has 2950rds on it and I've obviously ruined it using bronze brushes and Iosso... here's what 750 yards off a cattle gate/Shmedium bag looks like :

View attachment 8145061

And as far as guys being afraid to use more aggressive techniques for cleaning, IDK what context Frank from Bartlein said what to use, or what not to use, and when... but with brushes at least, I know Greg from Bugholes has said this: "I recommend you keep using your nylon brushes, that way you'll think your barrel is shot out sooner than it is, and I get the chance to sell you another barrel."

Nylon Brushes

It seems a lot of precision shooters favor nylon bore brushes over bronze brushes. Why is this? What I've read suggests that nylon is less abrasive to the bore than bronze, but the way I see it just one copper jacketed bullet forced down the bore at 60,000 psi does more damage to the bore than...

www.snipershide.com

Guys do and will wreck shit using a bronze brush and an abrasive cleaner. It's a guarantee and a matter of time.

Just off the tip of my head....3 different guys and different calibers... 284win barrel...accuracy started to go sour at 100 rounds. By 800 rounds he took a full .002" off the lands and polished out .0015" out of the grooves. That's the first pic attached. Use that one a lot because of how good it shows what happens. This was with a bronze brush and KG2 bore paste. Next a 308win barrel....only shot 500 rounds on it. Pic attached...inside of the bore is looking the same way. No picture attached but next is a 260AI barrel. Guy only had 110 rounds fired on it and took a full .001" out of the bore and the groove. He was using Witch's Brew also and a brush. This last guy wrecked three barrels in the span of 6 months. I told him I was done and that I wouldn't replace anymore barrels for him and that he had to change his cleaning technique. Guess what he didn't...and a few months later he wrecked another barrel but now he calls the bullet maker and claims the bullets are blowing up and that it is bad bullets. Guess what...Not bad bullets. Barrel damage = blown up bullets.

Another good example and again a 308win barrel. Barrel had 200+ rounds on it. The guy cleaned it one time with an abrasive and a brush. Barrel went from shooting around sub 1/3moa groups to shooting 2"+ groups with one cleaning. I know the shooter and know the gunsmith that performed all the work and it was verified what happen by all.

The issues are how you do it vs how another guy does it is the biggest variable and we have no control over it. It's a matter of time....damage will happen.

 

[Milf Dots]

@Frank Green
Frank, is there a carbon ring cleaning method posted here at SH or on the Bartlein website? Thanks

 

[Frank Green]

@Frank Green
Frank, is there a carbon ring cleaning method posted here at SH or on the Bartlein website? Thanks

No where that I know of.

That's one of those things that is hard to describe and hard to show pics of. Pic's don't always show it. Some calibers will build up faster than others along with the type of powder etc....

To me I can feel it better by hand/cleaning rod. You will feel a tight spot in the chamber/throat area of the barrel. I'll use a snug fitting patch and JB Borecompound (not the bore brite) to work on it.

Mark here in the office has a custom rod guide and a custom short chamber length type cleaning rod for his 6PPC bench guns to clean his bench guns. Which he is down shooting the Super Shoot right now.

Speaking of cleaning damage with a brush and an abrasive cleaner...ask Mark! He will tell you that he himself wrecked a barrel with one cleaning doing it that way. That barrel shot in the .1xx's with out blinking an eye. Cleaned it one time...never shot out of the .3xx's after that.

One of the bullet makers even told me just recently (with in the last 6 months). They know when the barrel needs cleaning with an abrasive cleaner. More often than not it's the throat area that needs attention. Only one guy is allowed to use an abrasive cleaner to clean the barrel(s) in the lab and it's him. The lead ballistic lab tech. None of the other guys are allowed to touch the stuff. Not making it up!

 

[jthor]

Your best bet is to search for posts by @Frank Green of Bartlein Barrels - here is one that basically says spinning a wire brush in a barrel is an excellent way to ruin said barrel. He's posted a fair amount on the topic here on SH.

I've tried any number of approaches, keeping Frank's advice in mind. For example, when I use a bronze brush, I push it all the way through the barrel, take it off, pull the rod out, screw the brush back on a turn or so, repeat 5-10 times, use patch wet with C4, repeat the whole thing until I'm satisfied. I don't clean all the way to bare metal... if there's any fire cracking present, that makes bare-metal cleaning all the more difficult.

Frank does make one recommendation with which I take liberties: that's the use of CLR (Calcium-Lime-Rust cleaner). CLR is the nuclear option for carbon removal, but the stuff must be used with great caution. It will absolutely destroy bluing and will discolor if not destroy many other finishes. Frank's testing showed that it will etch barrel steel if left in place very long. I use CLR very sparingly and ONLY on the carbon ring ONLY after C4 won't soften the ring - I don't use it in the whole barrel. I put a small amount of the stuff on a snug-fitting patch, place the patch over the carbon ring, and let it sit for 10 minutes, 15-20 for really bad rings (which I try to avoid letting build up). Make sure the CLR is completely removed from the barrel and, again, don't let that crap touch anything whose finish you don't want destroyed or damaged (I won't even let it get on my fingers). Then usual cleaning takes care of any remaining ring. Note that CLR won't touch copper fouling.

Again, if Frank says CLR is a bad idea, it's better to listen to him than to me. I won't use CLR unless kinder, gentler methods of attacking the ring fail.

CLR is fine on stainless, don’t recommend for carbon steel. It will etch it for sure

 

[paulrem308]

Have been keeping up with the carbon ring threads. Luckily havnt run in to this problem yet. Looks like 2 options chemical and mechanical and combination of the 2. Has anyone tried a brass scraper? Maybe somthing like a brass rod with hook on end pulling back towards chamber. May sound crazy and fast way to trash a barrell idk. Would brass damage throat area?

 

[CK1.0]

The issues are how you do it vs how another guy does it is the biggest variable and we have no control over it. It's a matter of time....damage will happen.

I seem to have underestimated the power of the smooth-brained.

It must be awful for someone in your position to have to argue/explain to guys on the other end of those types of situations that it was their fault, not your barrel's (or some bullet's).

It appears like most things when it comes to shooting, it's the Indian, not the arrow... and many are too dumb to figure out a borescope and cannot be trusted with abrasives and bronze brushes.


...thanks for chiming in.

 

[DownhillFromHere]

@Frank Green , thanks as always for chiming in. I have a related question: Would the old classic Remington 40X bore cleaner be considered an aggressive abrasive cleaner? Mildly abrasive? Somewhere in the middle? I use it as carefully as CLR; it helps with copper that CLR won't touch (fortunately, copper fouling hasn't been much problem for me).

40X was recommended to me early on in my precision rifle journey by a longtime friend & gunsmith who held a 1000-yard IBS record for a number of years. I dampen a double- or triple-wrapped patch on a subcaliber brush (e.g., like a worn-out .224 brush wrapped with cotton patching for a .264 bore; bristles don't touch the bore). I definitely don't combine 40X and a bare correct-for-caliber wire brush, and I make doggone sure I clear all the 40X out of the bore before finishing with Hoppes or similar and a dry patch.

Looking hard at a Bartlein barrel to replace the short, light Ace/Kukri barrel on my 4-year-old Vudoo... to "match" the (2) 6.5CM, (2) 6BR, and (2) .223Rem Bartlein barrels on my centerfires... experimenting never ends...

 

[Baron23]

Would the old classic Remington 40X bore cleaner be considered an aggressive abrasive cleaner? Mildly abrasive? Somewhere in the middle?

I'm not Frank but that fine gentleman actually called me to talk about this subject sometime back and yes, he uses 40X also as its not aggressive. He recommended it to me and I bought some and use it exactly as he describes...on a patch wrapped around a Parker Hale style jag.

 

[Frank Green]

I seem to have underestimated the power of the smooth-brained.

It must be awful for someone in your position to have to argue/explain to guys on the other end of those types of situations that it was their fault, not your barrel's (or some bullet's).

It appears like most things when it comes to shooting, it's the Indian, not the arrow... and many are too dumb to figure out a borescope and cannot be trusted with abrasives and bronze brushes.


...thanks for chiming in.

You hit it on the head brother!

I wasn't poking at you either so I hope you didn't take it that way?

Later, Frank

 

[Frank Green]

CLR is fine on stainless, don’t recommend for carbon steel. It will etch it for sure

I've seen etching start around the 5 day time frame on S.S. barrels.

So if your going to use it....use it and get it out. Don't leave it sit for extended periods of time.

 

[Frank Green]

@Frank Green , thanks as always for chiming in. I have a related question: Would the old classic Remington 40X bore cleaner be considered an aggressive abrasive cleaner? Mildly abrasive? Somewhere in the middle? I use it as carefully as CLR; it helps with copper that CLR won't touch (fortunately, copper fouling hasn't been much problem for me).

40X was recommended to me early on in my precision rifle journey by a longtime friend & gunsmith who held a 1000-yard IBS record for a number of years. I dampen a double- or triple-wrapped patch on a subcaliber brush (e.g., like a worn-out .224 brush wrapped with cotton patching for a .264 bore; bristles don't touch the bore). I definitely don't combine 40X and a bare correct-for-caliber wire brush, and I make doggone sure I clear all the 40X out of the bore before finishing with Hoppes or similar and a dry patch.

Looking hard at a Bartlein barrel to replace the short, light Ace/Kukri barrel on my 4-year-old Vudoo... to "match" the (2) 6.5CM, (2) 6BR, and (2) .223Rem Bartlein barrels on my centerfires... experimenting never ends...

I use the 40x cleaner when I'm using my hurry up method of cleaning and have used it for about 30 years. Years ago it was called Gold Medallion before Remmy bought it out if I remember correctly. Then the name got changed to Rem. Clean and now 40x cleaner. Same stuff.

Mild abrasive or hard abrasive etc... abrasive is abrasive. DON'T use a brush with it.

I use the 40x cleaner when I'm in a hurry and I used Sweet's 7.62 solvent first. After I dry patch out the Sweet's I follow up with the 40x cleaner. Dry patch that out and then a light patch of Hoppe's. Then before I start shooting again the next day...dry patch that before you start sending rounds down range.

Another concern of mine is guys don't always completely get out any abrasive cleaner from the bore. Anything left in the bore...might as well have rocks inside the barrel. First rounds fired down the bore....bad juju is happening!

 

[jthor]

I've seen etching start around the 5 day time frame on S.S. barrels.

So if your going to use it....use it and get it out. Don't leave it sit for extended periods of time.

I’ve never planned leaving CLR in my barrels for extended periods of time but I’m assuming if it’s possible, someone has done it.

Generally only leave it for 2-3 minutes and then flush out with 2-3 patches of 90% IPA. Really helps loosen up that carbon and for the throat area I’ve found it really helps to soak a bore mop and leave it in for about 10 minutes. The hard carbon in that area is always a PITA.

 

[jthor]

Another concern of mine is guys don't always completely get out any abrasive cleaner from the bore. Anything left in the bore...might as well have rocks inside the barrel. First rounds fired down the bore....bad juju is happening!

Valid, it takes several patches to flush out the abrasives.

 

[Baron23]

I use the 40x cleaner when I'm using my hurry up method of cleaning and have used it for about 30 years. Years ago it was called Gold Medallion before Remmy bought it out if I remember correctly. Then the name got changed to Rem. Clean and now 40x cleaner. Same stuff.

Mild abrasive or hard abrasive etc... abrasive is abrasive. DON'T use a brush with it.

I use the 40x cleaner when I'm in a hurry and I used Sweet's 7.62 solvent first. After I dry patch out the Sweet's I follow up with the 40x cleaner. Dry patch that out and then a light patch of Hoppe's. Then before I start shooting again the next day...dry patch that before you start sending rounds down range.

Another concern of mine is guys don't always completely get out any abrasive cleaner from the bore. Anything left in the bore...might as well have rocks inside the barrel. First rounds fired down the bore....bad juju is happening!

Frank, how is this use case with 40x different than JB bore compound which you also use. Why one vs another?

 

[Frank Green]

Frank, how is this use case with 40x different than JB bore compound which you also use. Why one vs another?

I just feel the 40x is easier to use/apply than the bore compound because the 40x is in a liquid type form.

If I don't use the Sweets and I feel the need to use something...then I use the bore compound. Just a gut by feel thing...that I feel the compound is more aggressive/does a better job. Not sure how to word it.

 

[Franko]

I just feel the 40x is easier to use/apply than the bore compound because the 40x is in a liquid type form.

If I don't use the Sweets and I feel the need to use something...then I use the bore compound. Just a gut by feel thing...that I feel the compound is more aggressive/does a better job. Not sure how to word it.

How do you make sure that you have removed all the 40x or JB bore compound?

Thanks for the advice "from the horses mouth" so to speak, there is a whole lot of bad info out there.

 

[Jayjay1]

So, what neutralizes CLR?

 

[jthor]

So, what neutralizes CLR?

Just throw a few wet patches with Isopropyl Alcohol through the barrel afterwards.

 

[Jayjay1]

Thank you.

 

[Erik7181]

Hi guys, im working on cleaning out my first semi-nasty carbon ring on a 22cm setup im running. Does anyone have any before and after pictures through their borescope so i know what im looking for? Do i need to bring it back to fully "silver" shiny at the throat? I soaked the barrel with c4 carbon remover for a couple days and have sent about 30 patches through this thing and its still showing a very dark ring in the throat/lands.

Thanks!

 

[pmc847]

What if ? The carbon ring forms at the curb created by the reamer at the beginning of the bore. What if the curb is eliminated by ramping to the bore instead of the curb to the bore. normal cleaning would keeping the carbon ring at bay.

Thoughts?

 

[Jayjay1]

I´ve seen a vido from "winning in the wind", and he mentioned to
1. clean after every shooting
2. use an oversized bronze brush, because it wouldn´t enter the barrel, but clean the curve at the cone

Makes sense to me.

 

[Frank Green]

How do you make sure that you have removed all the 40x or JB bore compound?

Thanks for the advice "from the horses mouth" so to speak, there is a whole lot of bad info out there.

Dry patch it thoroughly. I don't count patches. Just make sure you do it good. Then after that I will run a couple patches of Hoppe's down the bore. Then in the morning before I head out to the range/match day shooting dry patch the bore and chamber.

I've never had a problem doing it that way.