I have an AAC Cyclone on the end of a 700 police rifle with 20" barrel. When doing load development I will take 5 - 10 shots and then clean with shooter's choice, using a loop instead of a jag so I can leave can on. I notice shooter's choice is combustible. My question is, is this dangerous. I am afraid that over time the cleaning solution will build up and I will have a bomb on the end of my rifle. What do you think?
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Suppressors Cleaning with a suppressor question
- Thread starter mdh21225
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Re: Cleaning with a suppressor question
2500 yards, I'm not cleaning suppressor, I'm cleaning the barrel and I am afraid that the cleaner is going into the suppressor.
2500 yards, I'm not cleaning suppressor, I'm cleaning the barrel and I am afraid that the cleaner is going into the suppressor.
Re: Cleaning with a suppressor question
Why are you doing load development with a suppressor on in the first place?
Why are you doing load development with a suppressor on in the first place?
Re: Cleaning with a suppressor question
Why wouldn't you? I would think that the way a can hanging off your barrel affects harmonics, that you would want to develop the load around the way it will be shot.
Why wouldn't you? I would think that the way a can hanging off your barrel affects harmonics, that you would want to develop the load around the way it will be shot.
Re: Cleaning with a suppressor question
If you're going to shoot with the suppressor, then you need to do load development with the suppressor on, because it changes the barrel harmonics.
If you're going to shoot with the suppressor, then you need to do load development with the suppressor on, because it changes the barrel harmonics.
Re: Cleaning with a suppressor question
Yes and No. When you are doing load development you should start the process with the can off. Say your testing a subsonic load or you have come up with a load that doesnt have enough powder in it. If you fire and the bullet does not stabilize in the barrel, you will end up with it turning in the suppressor and bam you just ruined your suppressor with a baffle or end cap strike. I would say when you have your best load shooting well for you THEN put the suppressor on, shoot and see what that does to your data. I wouldnt risk a handload key holing my suppressor.
By the way... its suggested by most suppressor makers to clean your barrel with the can off your gun. As you pull from the breach outwards to your muzzle and that carbon junk is coming out guess where its collecting... your suppressor. just my 2 cents though...
good luck with your testing.
Yes and No. When you are doing load development you should start the process with the can off. Say your testing a subsonic load or you have come up with a load that doesnt have enough powder in it. If you fire and the bullet does not stabilize in the barrel, you will end up with it turning in the suppressor and bam you just ruined your suppressor with a baffle or end cap strike. I would say when you have your best load shooting well for you THEN put the suppressor on, shoot and see what that does to your data. I wouldnt risk a handload key holing my suppressor.
By the way... its suggested by most suppressor makers to clean your barrel with the can off your gun. As you pull from the breach outwards to your muzzle and that carbon junk is coming out guess where its collecting... your suppressor. just my 2 cents though...
good luck with your testing.
Re: Cleaning with a suppressor question
Good point with the subsonics KY.... I was thinking in terms of normal high velocity loads. I don't currently shoot subsonics out of mine.
Good point with the subsonics KY.... I was thinking in terms of normal high velocity loads. I don't currently shoot subsonics out of mine.
Re: Cleaning with a suppressor question
it can go either way really JRose....
If you underestimate your powder in one load and fire and say your shooting a shorter barrel, if that load isnt right for the twist, barrel length, and doesnt have enough punch it will tumble in the can. Just trying to spare everyone a suppressor and another $200 tax stamp. I am by no means an expert on suppressors but I have quite a few and have seen handloads do horrible things when guys are in the testing phase and decide to shoot thru them. I almost ruined an M4-1000 on my 223 bolt gun shooting handloads. But I had a buddy of mine who is a member on this site load up some subsonics and they shoot awesome.
it can go either way really JRose....
If you underestimate your powder in one load and fire and say your shooting a shorter barrel, if that load isnt right for the twist, barrel length, and doesnt have enough punch it will tumble in the can. Just trying to spare everyone a suppressor and another $200 tax stamp. I am by no means an expert on suppressors but I have quite a few and have seen handloads do horrible things when guys are in the testing phase and decide to shoot thru them. I almost ruined an M4-1000 on my 223 bolt gun shooting handloads. But I had a buddy of mine who is a member on this site load up some subsonics and they shoot awesome.
Re: Cleaning with a suppressor question
Alright. If I saw you doing this at the range, I would pull out a chair and watch you and wait. There is something about someone chasing their own tail that amuses me. Please take this constructively. It seems there has been a little trouble recently discerning if I am being nice or being a dick. Let me assure you I am being nice.
Regarding Harmonics, I have yet to see a suppressor negatively affecting harmonics to the point of destroying groups size by opening it up that could be affected through load development. It is a separate issue entirely. You can't load develop your way out of it either.
Load development, as in ladder tests don't require cleaning between groups. In fact I wouldn't necessarily recommend it. If your barrel cannot make it through a ladder test without fouling to the point of negatively affecting group size we have a problem. I for one would not want to unscrew and re-screw the suppressor on the rifle 4-5X in a given range setting. I cannot see how this is a constructive maneuver, nor any benefit that variable can introduce. There is something to be said for metals heating up, having torque applied and then cooling. Hand tight cold is not the same as hand tight hot.
I would argue load development should not be done with the suppressor in place. If the load shoots well without the suppressor than it should shoot well with the suppressor. If it does not the issue is not with the load but with the suppressor/barrel threads.
Alright. If I saw you doing this at the range, I would pull out a chair and watch you and wait. There is something about someone chasing their own tail that amuses me. Please take this constructively. It seems there has been a little trouble recently discerning if I am being nice or being a dick. Let me assure you I am being nice.
Regarding Harmonics, I have yet to see a suppressor negatively affecting harmonics to the point of destroying groups size by opening it up that could be affected through load development. It is a separate issue entirely. You can't load develop your way out of it either.
Load development, as in ladder tests don't require cleaning between groups. In fact I wouldn't necessarily recommend it. If your barrel cannot make it through a ladder test without fouling to the point of negatively affecting group size we have a problem. I for one would not want to unscrew and re-screw the suppressor on the rifle 4-5X in a given range setting. I cannot see how this is a constructive maneuver, nor any benefit that variable can introduce. There is something to be said for metals heating up, having torque applied and then cooling. Hand tight cold is not the same as hand tight hot.
I would argue load development should not be done with the suppressor in place. If the load shoots well without the suppressor than it should shoot well with the suppressor. If it does not the issue is not with the load but with the suppressor/barrel threads.
Re: Cleaning with a suppressor question
If you believe that barrel harmonics affects accuracy, especially at short range, then it is illogical to believe that hanging that weight on the end of the barrel cannot affect accuracy.
There is considerable evidence for the belief that barrel harmonics affct accuracy.
I would not argue that every stage of load development must utilize the suppressor, especially, as has been noted, with subsonics. Accuracy is not really much of an issue with subsonics anyway.
But if you want an accuracy load, you must test loads with the suppressor.
If you believe that barrel harmonics affects accuracy, especially at short range, then it is illogical to believe that hanging that weight on the end of the barrel cannot affect accuracy.
There is considerable evidence for the belief that barrel harmonics affct accuracy.
I would not argue that every stage of load development must utilize the suppressor, especially, as has been noted, with subsonics. Accuracy is not really much of an issue with subsonics anyway.
But if you want an accuracy load, you must test loads with the suppressor.
Re: Cleaning with a suppressor question
If I was to use a non-combustible cleaner would it be alright to leave can on while cleaning. Also how often should one clean after barrel is broken in?
If I was to use a non-combustible cleaner would it be alright to leave can on while cleaning. Also how often should one clean after barrel is broken in?
Re: Cleaning with a suppressor question
Lindy,
Have you ever seen a suppressor open a group just by being attached that could be corrected by tweaking the load?
I have not.
I'm not arguing shifting a group suppressed/unsuppressed, but opening it.
Lindy,
Have you ever seen a suppressor open a group just by being attached that could be corrected by tweaking the load?
I have not.
I'm not arguing shifting a group suppressed/unsuppressed, but opening it.
Re: Cleaning with a suppressor question
Why the obsession with cleaning with the can on? I wouldn't drag cleaner through my can....
Also, chill on the cleaning. I was at the range yesterday doing load development, and not once did I clean between strings. It will be another 300 or so rounds before I clean it.
BTW it's a GAP built rifle with Bartlien SS barrel, break in consisted of running a couple patches through it, taking it to the range, and burning through a couple of boxes.
Why the obsession with cleaning with the can on? I wouldn't drag cleaner through my can....
Also, chill on the cleaning. I was at the range yesterday doing load development, and not once did I clean between strings. It will be another 300 or so rounds before I clean it.
BTW it's a GAP built rifle with Bartlien SS barrel, break in consisted of running a couple patches through it, taking it to the range, and burning through a couple of boxes.
Re: Cleaning with a suppressor question
Have you seen God? If not, can you be sure that God does not exist?
Have you seen God? If not, can you be sure that God does not exist?
Re: Cleaning with a suppressor question
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lindy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Have you seen God? If not, can you be sure that God does not exist?
</div></div>
Was just asking if you had possibly seen him.
I have not.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lindy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Have you seen God? If not, can you be sure that God does not exist?
</div></div>
Was just asking if you had possibly seen him.
I have not.
Re: Cleaning with a suppressor question
I think it's commonly accepted that there is an "accuracy node" that's determined by velocity and OAL of barrel. If you change the OAL of the barrel by 6-10", it stands to reason you have to find your node again.
Maybe this will not affect your accuracy enough to matter to you, but it might open it up enough to where the user wants that super tight group he used to have.
I think it's commonly accepted that there is an "accuracy node" that's determined by velocity and OAL of barrel. If you change the OAL of the barrel by 6-10", it stands to reason you have to find your node again.
Maybe this will not affect your accuracy enough to matter to you, but it might open it up enough to where the user wants that super tight group he used to have.
Re: Cleaning with a suppressor question
When I clean I am using a loop so I don't push the patch through the can, just until I can feel it get through the barrel and then I put back. What is the proper amount of cleaning between shots?
When I clean I am using a loop so I don't push the patch through the can, just until I can feel it get through the barrel and then I put back. What is the proper amount of cleaning between shots?
Re: Cleaning with a suppressor question
I usually clean every 300-350 rounds, but that's me. I can't notice a bit of difference the way my shit shoots from just cleaned to 350 rounds. Actually, the only reason I clean at 300-350 is b/c I like to send a few Tubb TMS bullets through around then.
I usually clean every 300-350 rounds, but that's me. I can't notice a bit of difference the way my shit shoots from just cleaned to 350 rounds. Actually, the only reason I clean at 300-350 is b/c I like to send a few Tubb TMS bullets through around then.
Re: Cleaning with a suppressor question
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JRose</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I think it's commonly accepted that there is an "accuracy node" that's determined by velocity and OAL of barrel. If you change the OAL of the barrel by 6-10", it stands to reason you have to find your node again.
</div></div>
You are not making the barrel longer. The barrel still stops, you just have a little free-bore boost. That's where the velocity gain comes from. Some suppressors have more of it than others. Aperture size and baffle design contribute more to this effect, but when the barrel stops the bullet is no longer being touched. Although the harmonics will be affected by the added weight, the bullet is in the air at the end of the bore and any harmonic change will have stopped working on the projectile.
In testing one rifle, with measured and true threads with a box of 30 identical new suppressors of the same model, patterns emerge. This is why KAC was a proponent of matching individual suppressors to individual rifles to ensure minimal POI shift. With the same load and same rifle the suppressor alone changes a lot. The trick to suppressors is in design and how consistently a given company produces its product. Some are better than others and some have a more acceptable tolerance range.
If you work up a load for the rifle without the suppressor and attaching the suppressor opens up the group, threads, alignment, runout, and other factors need to be looked at. You cannot get around these factors through tweaking powder charges or seating length. With those factors already tweaked, you must look elsewhere.
Theory is one thing. When repeatedly troubleshooting this situation, patterns will emerge. I am only speaking of patterns I have seen.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JRose</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I think it's commonly accepted that there is an "accuracy node" that's determined by velocity and OAL of barrel. If you change the OAL of the barrel by 6-10", it stands to reason you have to find your node again.
</div></div>
You are not making the barrel longer. The barrel still stops, you just have a little free-bore boost. That's where the velocity gain comes from. Some suppressors have more of it than others. Aperture size and baffle design contribute more to this effect, but when the barrel stops the bullet is no longer being touched. Although the harmonics will be affected by the added weight, the bullet is in the air at the end of the bore and any harmonic change will have stopped working on the projectile.
In testing one rifle, with measured and true threads with a box of 30 identical new suppressors of the same model, patterns emerge. This is why KAC was a proponent of matching individual suppressors to individual rifles to ensure minimal POI shift. With the same load and same rifle the suppressor alone changes a lot. The trick to suppressors is in design and how consistently a given company produces its product. Some are better than others and some have a more acceptable tolerance range.
If you work up a load for the rifle without the suppressor and attaching the suppressor opens up the group, threads, alignment, runout, and other factors need to be looked at. You cannot get around these factors through tweaking powder charges or seating length. With those factors already tweaked, you must look elsewhere.
Theory is one thing. When repeatedly troubleshooting this situation, patterns will emerge. I am only speaking of patterns I have seen.
Re: Cleaning with a suppressor question
My understand of harmonics and affect on the bullet was always that the OAL length comes into play, not only the length of barrel in which the bullet has engagement.
The way I was told, was that the OAL length of barrel, suppressor, brake, flash hider, whatever is key to finding the node, b/c your actually trying to tune it where the round leaves when the whip is at the base of the barrel (I know this is not proper terminology, but work with me here). Now if you add 8" of can onto the barrel, even though the actual bullet engagement are has not changed, the point of where that resonance is has. It now might not be at the base of the barrel when the bullet leaves.
My understand of harmonics and affect on the bullet was always that the OAL length comes into play, not only the length of barrel in which the bullet has engagement.
The way I was told, was that the OAL length of barrel, suppressor, brake, flash hider, whatever is key to finding the node, b/c your actually trying to tune it where the round leaves when the whip is at the base of the barrel (I know this is not proper terminology, but work with me here). Now if you add 8" of can onto the barrel, even though the actual bullet engagement are has not changed, the point of where that resonance is has. It now might not be at the base of the barrel when the bullet leaves.
Re: Cleaning with a suppressor question
I will be doing this shortly...xmas time frame pending ATF
load development will be done with can attached, as rifle will very rarely if every be shot without.
Therefore i,m loading for fact can will be attached to barrel and view then as a single unit
Each to there own
I will be doing this shortly...xmas time frame pending ATF
load development will be done with can attached, as rifle will very rarely if every be shot without.
Therefore i,m loading for fact can will be attached to barrel and view then as a single unit
Each to there own
Re: Cleaning with a suppressor question
Bachelor Jack know what he is talking about. Id listen up...
A suppressor is not going to make your group sizes open up. If anything they will tighten on a bolt gun. You might get a POI shift but it wont make your groups larger.
Bachelor Jack know what he is talking about. Id listen up...
A suppressor is not going to make your group sizes open up. If anything they will tighten on a bolt gun. You might get a POI shift but it wont make your groups larger.
Re: Cleaning with a suppressor question
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kyshooter338</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Bachelor Jack know what he is talking about. Id listen up...
A suppressor is not going to make your group sizes open up. If anything they will tighten on a bolt gun. You might get a POI shift but it wont make your groups larger. </div></div>
No. A suppressor very well make your groups open up. But that's the suppressor's fault. And you can't get around it through load development. You have to fix what's broken.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kyshooter338</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Bachelor Jack know what he is talking about. Id listen up...
A suppressor is not going to make your group sizes open up. If anything they will tighten on a bolt gun. You might get a POI shift but it wont make your groups larger. </div></div>
No. A suppressor very well make your groups open up. But that's the suppressor's fault. And you can't get around it through load development. You have to fix what's broken.
Re: Cleaning with a suppressor question
In my collection of suppressors and from shooting all different manufacturers cans I have never seen one that has made a group on a bolt rifle open up and make the gun shoot worse. Maybe its luck of the draw but the only noticeable thing is my POI would move a little bit.
If your group opens up then yes, you have a poorly made suppressor and I would send it back for inspection. I have sent a couple back for being threaded poorly, but thats the worst I have seen so far. knock on wood.
In my collection of suppressors and from shooting all different manufacturers cans I have never seen one that has made a group on a bolt rifle open up and make the gun shoot worse. Maybe its luck of the draw but the only noticeable thing is my POI would move a little bit.
If your group opens up then yes, you have a poorly made suppressor and I would send it back for inspection. I have sent a couple back for being threaded poorly, but thats the worst I have seen so far. knock on wood.
Re: Cleaning with a suppressor question
there is a point to be made here and its this....
heat build up means pressure build up...so in theory...the groups suffer...but if you are shooting a bullet that is very forgiving ,....like a high BC bullet...you most likely will not see , or can not shoot the difference and see and noticeable shift of groups
thread jobs that are not plumb will wack groups because of inconsistent let-off, even though the suppressor is plumb.
i always remove my can when punching the bore....it would be a stupid and dangerous thing is there was a patch or other obstruction left in the bullets path.....
there is a point to be made here and its this....
heat build up means pressure build up...so in theory...the groups suffer...but if you are shooting a bullet that is very forgiving ,....like a high BC bullet...you most likely will not see , or can not shoot the difference and see and noticeable shift of groups
thread jobs that are not plumb will wack groups because of inconsistent let-off, even though the suppressor is plumb.
i always remove my can when punching the bore....it would be a stupid and dangerous thing is there was a patch or other obstruction left in the bullets path.....
Re: Cleaning with a suppressor question
Interesting post. I like the sidetrack it took, as well. Good information.
Back to the guy who cleans with the can on. Quit. I am suprised you did not take more heat about that. You sound like a guy who sleeps in his sox. Just get the can off to clean. Dragging the patch back is just pulling the carbon and junk back into the bore. Push it out.
Can off.
Push patch through and dispose.
Why can you not get thorugh a range session without cleaning? I watch a new barrel for copper but once it is rolling along and not building up copper 100 shots is fine. IMO
Interesting post. I like the sidetrack it took, as well. Good information.
Back to the guy who cleans with the can on. Quit. I am suprised you did not take more heat about that. You sound like a guy who sleeps in his sox. Just get the can off to clean. Dragging the patch back is just pulling the carbon and junk back into the bore. Push it out.
Can off.
Push patch through and dispose.
Why can you not get thorugh a range session without cleaning? I watch a new barrel for copper but once it is rolling along and not building up copper 100 shots is fine. IMO
Re: Cleaning with a suppressor question
Ditto on both, stop cleaning so often and take the can off when you clean. My thoughts: first, by cleaning so often you're far more likely to damage the bore than by shooting a range session (or two, or three) between cleaning. Second, you are loosening up a bunch of crud that is going right into the can. Third, yes you are building a bomb on the end of your barrel- I've seen two pretty cool fireballs out two cans that had some solvent left in them. Fourth, I have three cans by three different manufacturers and none of them recommend bore cleaner be introduced into their products due to corrosion.
Also, I live in Washington state, where it is legal to own, but not use, my cans. So all of my load development is done unsuppressed. Then I go to Oregon and shoot several hundred rounds through the rifles, supressed, without cleaning anything. Haven't noticed much difference in POI, and I'm shooting rats out past 300 yards.
SO: Stop with the OCD cleaning routine, do your load development unsuppressed, THEN attach the can and re-zero for your change in POI. I think you'll be surprised at how much easier this makes things, and how little change there will be. As has been pointed out above, if there is an accuracy problem with the can on, it's either the barrel threading or the can. Load tweaking won't dig you out of that hole.
Oh, and- I clean my rimfire cans maybe every few thousand rounds, and my centerfire cans less.
1911fan
Ditto on both, stop cleaning so often and take the can off when you clean. My thoughts: first, by cleaning so often you're far more likely to damage the bore than by shooting a range session (or two, or three) between cleaning. Second, you are loosening up a bunch of crud that is going right into the can. Third, yes you are building a bomb on the end of your barrel- I've seen two pretty cool fireballs out two cans that had some solvent left in them. Fourth, I have three cans by three different manufacturers and none of them recommend bore cleaner be introduced into their products due to corrosion.
Also, I live in Washington state, where it is legal to own, but not use, my cans. So all of my load development is done unsuppressed. Then I go to Oregon and shoot several hundred rounds through the rifles, supressed, without cleaning anything. Haven't noticed much difference in POI, and I'm shooting rats out past 300 yards.
SO: Stop with the OCD cleaning routine, do your load development unsuppressed, THEN attach the can and re-zero for your change in POI. I think you'll be surprised at how much easier this makes things, and how little change there will be. As has been pointed out above, if there is an accuracy problem with the can on, it's either the barrel threading or the can. Load tweaking won't dig you out of that hole.
Oh, and- I clean my rimfire cans maybe every few thousand rounds, and my centerfire cans less.
1911fan
Re: Cleaning with a suppressor question
O.k, Thanks to everyone for the info. It was one of those things that I knew the answer but had to ask anyways. But back to the cleaning thing, why do I see brenchrest guys cleaning after every round? Wouldn't cleaning more often be better than not?
Also If I always shoot with the can on why not do load development with it?
Just questions nothing to get heated about.
O.k, Thanks to everyone for the info. It was one of those things that I knew the answer but had to ask anyways. But back to the cleaning thing, why do I see brenchrest guys cleaning after every round? Wouldn't cleaning more often be better than not?
Also If I always shoot with the can on why not do load development with it?
Just questions nothing to get heated about.
Re: Cleaning with a suppressor question
Benchresters are OCD as fluck, not to mention, old habits die hard.
Old mechanics I used to work with still would not store battery's sitting on the ground b/c they thought that it drained the battery. That's just sillyness...
Benchresters are OCD as fluck, not to mention, old habits die hard.
Old mechanics I used to work with still would not store battery's sitting on the ground b/c they thought that it drained the battery. That's just sillyness...
Re: Cleaning with a suppressor question
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: justmatt</div><div class="ubbcode-body">But back to the cleaning thing, why do I see brenchrest guys cleaning after every round? Wouldn't cleaning more often be better than not?</div></div>
As noted above, benchresters make OCD look like a mild wish to get something done. Some do, some don't clean their barrels a LOT. They're concerned with the last .01 of accuracy over low-number groups at short distances. But watch and ask, not all of them clean after every shot. Why? Most barrels shoot better 'fouled'; that is to say after a number of rounds have been sent through the barrel after the last cleaning. I'd bet most of us on the board, shooting F-Class or tactical matches, won't clean the rifle just before or during a match because it will shoot differently just after it's cleaned. What we are after is consistency over large numbers of rounds over mid- to long-range distances, say 600 to 1,000 yards. Given that there is a physical difference between a just-cleaned barrel and a fouled one, which will make the most consistent velocity over the next 10 rounds?
When I had my first custom rifle made, I was convinced it had to be cleaned after every range session. Which was, frankly, a pain in the ass. In talking to another customer of the same smith, who made both our rifles a short time apart, he told me he only cleaned it when accuracy fell off. Don't know how many hundred rounds that was. That's what I do now: if the shots aren't 'on call' then the rifle needs cleaning. And, as I said in my last post, you're more likely to screw up your barrel by over-cleaning, due to cleaning it when it doesn't really need it, especially if you're not using a bore guide, using a jointed or uncoated rod, steel brushes or jags, etc.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: justmatt</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Also If I always shoot with the can on why not do load development with it?</div></div>
That's fine, if you want to. The way you're going at it, as we've all told you, is not fine. For one thing, during load development you may have loads that don't work well, or shoot bullets your twist won't stabilize. Baffle strikes are bad. Also, cans have a finite life. Might be 15,000 rounds or more, but they do wear out. Why add to the number of rounds through it uneccessarily?
Out of curiousity, I took a .308 to Oregon and shot my match load for groups, through a can and not. If anything, the suppressed group was tighter, as most manufacturers claim. POI shift was minimal, about 1 MOA up and left. Removing/shooting/reinstalling/shooting convinced me the POI shift was pretty constant. So, can on= 1 MOA up, 1 MOA right. Works fine.
Understand, we're not beating on you, just trying to keep you from doing things you really don't need to.
1911fan
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: justmatt</div><div class="ubbcode-body">But back to the cleaning thing, why do I see brenchrest guys cleaning after every round? Wouldn't cleaning more often be better than not?</div></div>
As noted above, benchresters make OCD look like a mild wish to get something done. Some do, some don't clean their barrels a LOT. They're concerned with the last .01 of accuracy over low-number groups at short distances. But watch and ask, not all of them clean after every shot. Why? Most barrels shoot better 'fouled'; that is to say after a number of rounds have been sent through the barrel after the last cleaning. I'd bet most of us on the board, shooting F-Class or tactical matches, won't clean the rifle just before or during a match because it will shoot differently just after it's cleaned. What we are after is consistency over large numbers of rounds over mid- to long-range distances, say 600 to 1,000 yards. Given that there is a physical difference between a just-cleaned barrel and a fouled one, which will make the most consistent velocity over the next 10 rounds?
When I had my first custom rifle made, I was convinced it had to be cleaned after every range session. Which was, frankly, a pain in the ass. In talking to another customer of the same smith, who made both our rifles a short time apart, he told me he only cleaned it when accuracy fell off. Don't know how many hundred rounds that was. That's what I do now: if the shots aren't 'on call' then the rifle needs cleaning. And, as I said in my last post, you're more likely to screw up your barrel by over-cleaning, due to cleaning it when it doesn't really need it, especially if you're not using a bore guide, using a jointed or uncoated rod, steel brushes or jags, etc.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: justmatt</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Also If I always shoot with the can on why not do load development with it?</div></div>
That's fine, if you want to. The way you're going at it, as we've all told you, is not fine. For one thing, during load development you may have loads that don't work well, or shoot bullets your twist won't stabilize. Baffle strikes are bad. Also, cans have a finite life. Might be 15,000 rounds or more, but they do wear out. Why add to the number of rounds through it uneccessarily?
Out of curiousity, I took a .308 to Oregon and shot my match load for groups, through a can and not. If anything, the suppressed group was tighter, as most manufacturers claim. POI shift was minimal, about 1 MOA up and left. Removing/shooting/reinstalling/shooting convinced me the POI shift was pretty constant. So, can on= 1 MOA up, 1 MOA right. Works fine.
Understand, we're not beating on you, just trying to keep you from doing things you really don't need to.
1911fan
Re: Cleaning with a suppressor question
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: justmatt</div><div class="ubbcode-body">But back to the cleaning thing, why do I see brenchrest guys cleaning after every round? Wouldn't cleaning more often be better than not?</div></div>
Are you a Benchrest guy? If you were, you would know that answer. Are you prepared to go through barrels and chamber setbacks like the Benchrest guys as well? Do you weigh your primers, your brass and your projectiles individually?
Would you like to know how often a Pirate cleans a firearm? Once the killing has stopped and there is drinking to be done. Before drinking and whoring. That pre-shower drinking. Foaming bore cleaner in. Round of cocktails. Round of cocktails. Dry patch it out. Round of cocktails. Oil patch. Round of cocktails. Next gun.
But as has been stated, neither of those cleaning regimens apply to you. Clearly, you are not a Benchrest guy and you are CERTAINLY not a Pirate.
We don't use our barrels for surgery or for eating out of. Your concerns should be stopping corrosion and removing the buildup which causes groups to open up. If the groups are not opening up and there is no cause of corrosion, what are you doing? Wearing out your barrel and wasting patches and juice.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: justmatt</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Also If I always shoot with the can on why not do load development with it?</div></div>
This has already been explained to you in detail. I'm going to pretend you didn't ask it again.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: justmatt</div><div class="ubbcode-body">But back to the cleaning thing, why do I see brenchrest guys cleaning after every round? Wouldn't cleaning more often be better than not?</div></div>
Are you a Benchrest guy? If you were, you would know that answer. Are you prepared to go through barrels and chamber setbacks like the Benchrest guys as well? Do you weigh your primers, your brass and your projectiles individually?
Would you like to know how often a Pirate cleans a firearm? Once the killing has stopped and there is drinking to be done. Before drinking and whoring. That pre-shower drinking. Foaming bore cleaner in. Round of cocktails. Round of cocktails. Dry patch it out. Round of cocktails. Oil patch. Round of cocktails. Next gun.
But as has been stated, neither of those cleaning regimens apply to you. Clearly, you are not a Benchrest guy and you are CERTAINLY not a Pirate.
We don't use our barrels for surgery or for eating out of. Your concerns should be stopping corrosion and removing the buildup which causes groups to open up. If the groups are not opening up and there is no cause of corrosion, what are you doing? Wearing out your barrel and wasting patches and juice.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: justmatt</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Also If I always shoot with the can on why not do load development with it?</div></div>
This has already been explained to you in detail. I'm going to pretend you didn't ask it again.
Re: Cleaning with a suppressor question
Thank you again for all info. One last question (I hope) If POI is off 1MOA w/ can is that the same for each 100 yards, meaning 1MOA up and 1MOA over at 100yards and 1MOA up and 1MOA over at 600yards?
Thank you again for all info. One last question (I hope) If POI is off 1MOA w/ can is that the same for each 100 yards, meaning 1MOA up and 1MOA over at 100yards and 1MOA up and 1MOA over at 600yards?
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