Click no bang.....goofy looking powder.

[fpgt72]

The round in question was 7.62x54R. You folk know I like old things.

I don't really give loads on the internet but lets say it was on the softer side and was using a well respected powder, and a load I had been using FOREVER. Reason I am being shy around the powder is here at work I am not sure I remember correctly, N130 or N150. I just don't remember off the top of my head.

I had a few weeks off, that was nice, and one of the things on the table was doin some shootin. So I did. I got quite a few things dirty, some things I had not shot in decades. Made me really ask myself, why don't you do this more often, it is kind of fun. More on that in another thread.

But the rounds are loaded in 2022, stored in the "usual" little plastic box of your color choice, in a cabinet in the basement. Just like every other one in that same box.

This happened with about 6 rounds left in the box, and really made me think for a sec if I wanted to finish out the box. I stopped short, and still not sure if I will pull the others down. Looking on views on that. 45 rounds-ish in that box shot just fine, but this one, not so much.

Click no bang....hmm. Give it a few sec, then open up the gun 91/30 sniper wanna be. I got it from SOG years ago at the height of the "fake sniper" craze. Everyone wanted to play Enemy at the Gates, and why not. Cheap rifle and Rachel Weisz, nice butt.

I had a pic of the card, but will blurr out the info.

You likely know the card, but a few things, the 2.791 is COAL, and primer is "old" CCI primers I had laying around in reserve...nothing special, just old packaging I got at a gun show. At the time LRP are still a bit hard to find.

A couple photos of the powder, you can tell something happened somewhere. I just found it odd.

And yes I crimp the ever living hell out of them, those old soviet automatics, SVT-40 and PSL are just a tad rough. The bullets and loading are light as the SVT is not the strongest design out there. Get too heavy a bullet or too "hot" a load and the gun will basically bend the back of the rec. So light loads are what is called for and light bullets. They both shoot these just fine, but drop is pretty quick.

I have had this "basic" thing happen twice now. First one was when I put a 38 up for storage loaded when I went in for my first surgery. I had it "covered" with Ballistol as I was not sure when/if I was going to recover from some surgery. About a year later I grab it, open it up, looks fine, clean it up a little lint, dog hair, general dust, and down I go.

Round 1 ok, round 2 sounded a bit soft, round 3 phfsssstttt. Full stop. I was able to open the gun up so at least the bullet made it all the way into the barrel, and back up to the house I go.

I pull the rest of them down, One looked ok, two looked ok, three looked like tar. And again yes I crimped. The ballistol must have got in there some how, around the crimp or the primer pocket are the only choices. The other day above was dry as a bone, but the 30 was wet and goopy.

Had to drill out the bullet from the nose of the revolver.

 

[TheOfficeT-Rex]

Incomplete ignition cycle. The discolored power was hit by the primer but never started to burn. Which makes sense, with the other rounds feeling and sounding soft.

AFAIK, Could either be caused by weak primers or insufficient powder with not enough case fill or pressure to burn. Either way, watch for squibs. A good primer can push a bullet into the rifling in a case with no powder.

 

[LeonBlank]

Click no bang....hmm. Give it a few sec, then open up the gun 91/30 sniper wanna be. I got it from SOG years ago at the height of the "fake sniper" craze. Everyone wanted to play Enemy at the Gates, and why not. Cheap rifle and Rachel Weisz, nice butt.

I felt like I was reading a post that I had written myself back in time. Still love the movie and still have the rifle!

 

[fpgt72]

Incomplete ignition cycle. The discolored power was hit by the primer but never started to burn. Which makes sense, with the other rounds feeling and sounding soft.

AFAIK, Could either be caused by weak primers or insufficient powder with not enough case fill or pressure to burn. Either way, watch for squibs. A good primer can push a bullet into the rifling in a case with no powder.

I am not off in the weeds, this is a published load. "youth hunting" is what it was called.

I am wondering with your comment on weak primers, and these being the "old" primers if one just did not have the "stuff" to do its job.

I had used this load in all the 54R stuff going back years. It was liked in the "weak" SVT and ran in the PSL so I just ran with it. All shot this exact length just fine...or fine enough for these old girls.

The primers I did not buy new, but gifted to me that I just tucked away for a rainy day. I did have dividers in the box saying new and old primers, and for the life of me can't remember where the new started and the old left off. I am betting that can be it.

By the powder left both in the case and in the rifle I don't think one grain burned. I did not look good at the primer, I just can't see that well into that long case. I tried to grab it when I popped it out, but all its parts came apart so there is really no telling if it did actually "pop".

That is a good idea I had not thought of.

 

[TheOfficeT-Rex]

I did not look good at the primer, I just can't see that well into that long case. I tried to grab it when I popped it out, but all its parts came apart so there is really no telling if it did actually "pop".

The powder discoloration shows that the primer did fire, but did not ignite the powder.

I am not off in the weeds, this is a published load. "youth hunting" is what it was called.

If it is or not doesn't really matter - The primer isn't lighting the powder. If it's published, I have no idea why you'd blank it out and leave us to guess on your case fill, which could explain the lack of ignition (and possibly miserable velocity swings).

 

[fpgt72]

The powder discoloration shows that the primer did fire, but did not ignite the powder.


If it is or not doesn't really matter - The primer isn't lighting the powder. If it's published, I have no idea why you'd blank it out and leave us to guess on your case fill, which could explain the lack of ignition (and possibly miserable velocity swings).

I did not run the numbers the past week. I just did not want to haul all that crap down there, set it all up, pack it up, haul it back. I just wanted to bang steel. So I can't comment on the numbers last weekend.

However doing the workup for the load I did all that. I don't have the numbers handy, but I do know the ES was acceptable to me, generally for "fun" shooting I want sub 100, and generally go for sub 50 if I can. That is really the number that post the most attn. to. Not sure if that is correct or not, but I thought if the shot to shots are close enough you are getting the same powder burn each time.

I had about quit shooting as I just did not want to fool with all that stuff, I think I talked about this in another thread where I was talking about my Krag. I generally mix up about 5 rounds of given recipes and haul all that stuff down and pick winners and losers. The pick is made on the group and how close the FPS numbers are to each other. Then I will mix up about two mags worth, or 10 rounds if a single shot, and do it again. If I am still happy that is it.

I still hauled all that gear down and wrote down every number. Not sure why but I just did, and had it in my mind that I might "miss" something if I did not do just that. A little like this time, did the numbers seem off? I don't think so as I was banging steel and poking holes with what I would call "normal" day.

This day I just went down and shot....just for the fun of it. And it was fun again....but I might have missed out on something.

I really think I am going to leave all the tripods and chronographs at home, just bring a spotting scope to see without getting up. It was a lot more fun, just hitting the plates.

 

[Doom]

You seem very reluctant to state the "published Load" which isn't very obvious from an internet search. N130 is a fast powder for that case. You would need about 43grains to have 80% case fill. That leaves a lot of room for the powder to spread around in. It would also be a very low pressure. As others have posted the primer fired but the powder didn't burn but the detergent/graphite did burn on some kernels.

Obvious sources of potential problem:
wet or ultrasonic cleaning and improper drying, wet powder.
cleaning media in flash hole.
bad primer, possible but not likely.
bad powder.
Insufficient case fill

 

[supercorndogs]

It seems like bad primers are exedingly rare.

 

[fpgt72]

You seem very reluctant to state the "published Load" which isn't very obvious from an internet search. N130 is a fast powder for that case. You would need about 43grains to have 80% case fill. That leaves a lot of room for the powder to spread around in. It would also be a very low pressure. As others have posted the primer fired but the powder didn't burn but the detergent/graphite did burn on some kernels.

Obvious sources of potential problem:
wet or ultrasonic cleaning and improper drying, wet powder.
cleaning media in flash hole.
bad primer, possible but not likely.
bad powder.
Insufficient case fill

Yea I am very reluctant. If I reference a load from the internet I will post up the link but not the data. It is just a me thing. Not sure why I am that way but I am that way. I tend to get data where I can. In this case it is easy as it is pretty popular, but the point is I have access to things like load data dot com. I have found that a good source for "dead" cartridges. I still use it for more "normal" flavors as well. I don't document where the load data for a given round comes from, perhaps I should start....but I know I did not pull it out of thin air. I also have quickload and have run things in that just to make me feel a bit better on a given loading, but I would not have done that. Usually that is more of an 11mm Mauser, or 351WSL type of tool. I don't think the powder that was called 4895 is the same formula as it was in 1963.

I don't wet clean anything, still use the old noisy vibrate thing that makes the dog hide under the bed for hours. So that is out, but I have seen a little bit of shell stuck in a primer hole, so you could be on to something there, I could have missed that when I clean flash holes.

As a rule I clean the flash hole in every case, I doubt I would not have cleaned one to shiny gold, but I could have missed a hole issue. Some of the cases have a less then round and centered hole. The others don't sound logical as the rest in that box worked just fine short the 5 or 6 where I stopped after having the issue.

With it being an "old" primer I think that might be where I am going to go. I could be dead wrong, but it is the only thing that would explain the other 40 something working just like they always had.

 

[918v]

Maybe you primed them with CCI pistol primers?

 

[hlee]

Are these, by chance boxer primed in berdan cases? That could be an issue…

 

[tomme boy]

Too long of a free bore will do this too. Most Mosins are shot out even though they look good. Seat the bullet to the exact length the book calls for and use a mag primer. Never try to seat the bullet out on these rifles because of the way the throat is. This can lead to a whats called a "SEE" but what it is, is a run away of the pressure. And very bad things can happen.

 

[fpgt72]

Too long of a free bore will do this too. Most Mosins are shot out even though they look good. Seat the bullet to the exact length the book calls for and use a mag primer. Never try to seat the bullet out on these rifles because of the way the throat is. This can lead to a whats called a "SEE" but what it is, is a run away of the pressure. And very bad things can happen.

I have several copies of the same rifle, including the Russian stuff. I say Russian because some of it is pre commie stuff.

The russian stuff I don't have boxes for just that rifle like I do with other things, I had not really thought about it why not, but I don't. I even have different boxes for Carcano, but not anything that is 54R. Like a box with 1234 on it, and those are the last 4 of the sn# of the rifle those go with, same with VAR on the box, various rifles. I don't have that with the russian stuff. Box just says 54R so I can see it at a quick look.

What I THINK is, I really just don't care with these. About the most weak 54R I have is an SVT40, so what they call "light ball" and softer loads with the gas system turned almost down to the bottom is where I started. Then I went to the PSL, first rounds would not cycle, so I got something that was happy with the two automatics and called it a day. GENERALLY I am 8" plate at 100 ok with these, a miss here and there, could be me, could be the load. To tell the truth I can't think of ever "really" putting them on paper. I do know that they are a "book" COAL with the light bullets I choose for them. And I know they shoot straight as I do poke a hole in paper now and again so I know they are not flying all stupid...nice round little hole.

I popped primers the other day out of the batch, and have not pulled down the last rounds from the box. I think I will just for safety sake, pop the primer (oh the pain) trash the powder, save the bullet and go again with "new" primers and run a box and see.

I don't really know how old they are but I did post up the package here a while back, and was contacted and asked permission to use the photo from someone. I bet I still have the PM.

Weather is starting to turn here tho, and I find it no fun shooting in the cold, so it might be till spring. I might load them up this weekend if I am not fooling with the VW again all weekend.

In looking for that above photo I found a photo of the primers. Now what one of these two packages I used, I don't know I did not make a note that deep. Again perhaps another thing i should do when using older stuff.

They did look fine, and did not smell funny like powder is suppose to smell when it turns.

Or it could just be one of those things that just happens now and again.

I think I am done chasing my tail on this. I have new primers and will just use those now.

 

[supercorndogs]

I am just finishing up shooting through 5k CCI250s that look like the top box.

I remember my dad having a box of shotgun primers that were all rusty and you could tell the box had been soaking wet. He put a couple in hulls and they went bang so he loaded up some trap loads with them. They all went bang.

 

[fpgt72]

What in the hell am I doing wrong?

I have been reloading for over 20 years and have never had this issue before. This time same as above but this time with 3006. I did not make a note of the powder, but I have the same odd discoloring as I had with the 54R.

I have not changed anything, and these 3006 got loaded roughly 6 months ago.

So odd I am getting colors like this, smells funky as well. Only one in the 20 did this. This time the primer did not even pop, flat dead. Had to wait till back at the house to pull the bullet.

I do crimp them so I don't think anything could be getting in there. Just strange.

 

[TheOfficeT-Rex]

Let’s see the primer from the case that didn’t go off.

Likely that either you’re still not getting ignition from case fill, or there’s some moisture or contamination.

 

[fpgt72]

Let’s see the primer from the case that didn’t go off.

Likely that either you’re still not getting ignition from case fill, or there’s some moisture or contamination.

I still have it in the case. I will try to take a photo of it when I get home.

 

[TheOfficeT-Rex]

I still have it in the case. I will try to take a photo of it when I get home.

If able, lets see one of the firing pin indent while it's still in the case, then decap it and show us the anvil side and the priming compound.

 

[fpgt72]

I did not remember yesterday, but when I went to take the photo I did remember. I had already pulled the round down and the case is in the box with all the others. So I am not sure what one it is.

Some of them do look a little funny in the photo, and when I saw the picture I went back downstairs to see if any where proud. They are all seated even with the bottom of the case so it must be the way the photo is taken.

Some sure do look funny however, that first one on the second row looks odd, but I am not sure it was the offender.

 

[TheOfficeT-Rex]

When you pop them out I’ll bet you find they’re all properly fired primers.

 

[Cascade Hemi]

It would be easier to help you if you posted the actual load specifics. It would also help if you included the ambient temperature since your location isn't in your profile.

 

[fpgt72]

It would be easier to help you if you posted the actual load specifics. It would also help if you included the ambient temperature since your location isn't in your profile.

Temp, that is a bit of a moving target. Yesterday it was 79, today it is 26.....tomorrow it is to be in the 60's.

Specifics on the load, I thought I had taken a photo of the bit of paper with all that on it, but I did not....again if I remember tonight, actually shocked I remembered to take a photo of the primers last night I will snap a pic of it and post it up.

The rifle is an '03 Springfield with a 1918 dated barrel in the 500k SN# range if you need that info as well. Yes one of the dreaded "low number" springfields, that will blow half the planet up if you look at it sideways.

 

[Cascade Hemi]

We don't need to know tomorrow's temperature unless you have another hangfire tomorrow. It shouldn't be this hard. If you want reasonable help then give us all of the pertinent information without guessing.

 

[fpgt72]

No clue what the temp was, me being me and not going if it is not at least comfortable in a sweat shirt and jacket, I would guess the temps at the time in the mid 50's minimum, but not over 70. Best you are going to get there.

I can't figure how to get a texted photo out of my phone, it does not go to the same place as other photos, so here is the info.

It was loaded on 3-20-22
Cartridge 3006
Powder Varget
Grains 44
Bullet Hornady 30370
Weight 150
COAL 3156

That is all I have for it.

We don't need to know tomorrow's temperature unless you have another hangfire tomorrow. It shouldn't be this hard. If you want reasonable help then give us all of the pertinent information without guessing.

You are going to need to get use to me rambling, if you have an issue with me running off on tangents this is going to get real frustrating for you.

 

[hlee]

I doubt the range environment is playing a role. Decap the cases. Did all of the primers “pop?” Those all look like pretty good strikes. If they all popped, sequester the powder and try again with fresh powder. If you have dead primers, sequester the primers and try again with fresh primers.

But, also disassemble and clean the bolt and firing pin assembly in your gun. Maybe start here, then move to fresh components…

 

[TheOfficeT-Rex]

It was loaded on 3-20-22
Cartridge 3006
Powder Varget
Grains 44
Bullet Hornady 30370
Weight 150
COAL 3156

You're below the Hornady 10th manual STARTING load for varget (listed from 44.9). Hodgdon lists different bullets at 150gn, but starting loads of 46 and 47 gn of varget. The Berger manual is similar.

GRT generic inputs put load density at 72% and low burn error codes. Just like the loads you started the thread with, you cant just download the case fill then bitch that they don't light.

 

[Cascade Hemi]

You're below the Hornady 10th manual STARTING load for varget (listed from 44.9). Hodgdon lists different bullets at 150gn, but starting loads of 46 and 47 gn of varget. The Berger manual is similar.

GRT generic inputs put load density at 72% and low burn error codes. Just like the loads you started the thread with, you cant just download the case fill then bitch that they don't light.

Add weak primers and the powder sitting at the front of the cartridge...

 

[fpgt72]

You're below the Hornady 10th manual STARTING load for varget (listed from 44.9). Hodgdon lists different bullets at 150gn, but starting loads of 46 and 47 gn of varget. The Berger manual is similar.

GRT generic inputs put load density at 72% and low burn error codes. Just like the loads you started the thread with, you cant just download the case fill then bitch that they don't light.

I did check that load last night, I have a couple three books, they ranged from 44 to 44.9 as a starting load for a 150 grain bullet of various types. The Sierra manual had 44.9, the old lyman had 44, I think the other had 44.5.

I generally check a few different sources and go with the lowest number for starters. Being a little sensitive to recoil I want them to be as soft as possible.

I came across some "youth" loads that had them in the high 30's, but did not find that till I already had these made up.

In my quest to get away from different loads for different guns, I usually try the bolt guns first, and then move to the autos. These all worked OK in the garand IIRC.

I have never pulled any of the others down, but the odd colors of the powder is really what is calling into question on me. This has happened to two different powders VV and Varget, in two different calibers, 54R and 3006. I am not sure primers would cause the powder to discolor like that. Perhaps I will pull a few others that have not been shot yet and see what the color looks like.

I generally don't record much info around the primer, past if it is old or not, CCI, Winchester, whatever.

I also use load data. com quite a bit, there is quite a bit of info in there.

 

[Cascade Hemi]

I did check that load last night, I have a couple three books, they ranged from 44 to 44.9 as a starting load for a 150 grain bullet of various types. The Sierra manual had 44.9, the old lyman had 44, I think the other had 44.5.

I generally check a few different sources and go with the lowest number for starters. Being a little sensitive to recoil I want them to be as soft as possible.

I came across some "youth" loads that had them in the high 30's, but did not find that till I already had these made up.

In my quest to get away from different loads for different guns, I usually try the bolt guns first, and then move to the autos. These all worked OK in the garand IIRC.

I have never pulled any of the others down, but the odd colors of the powder is really what is calling into question on me. This has happened to two different powders VV and Varget, in two different calibers, 54R and 3006. I am not sure primers would cause the powder to discolor like that. Perhaps I will pull a few others that have not been shot yet and see what the color looks like.

I generally don't record much info around the primer, past if it is old or not, CCI, Winchester, whatever.

I also use load data. com quite a bit, there is quite a bit of info in there.

View attachment 8361125

The odd powder color is from the primer igniting but not setting off the powder charge. This is very common when using SRP in cold climates.

I'll take a stab at the issue. This is multiple factors contributing to hangfires. You have a light charge/low case fill, old/weak primers, lower ambient temps, and the powder biased to the front of the cartridge (powder slides forward every time your fire). Your load on it's face isn't dangerous but the combination of factors are causing random ignition. It probably goes away when it's hot outside or you tip the gun back between rounds. You can test this by either using magnum primers or adding a couple of grains of powder. You're encountering the same issue in 54R because it has roughly the same case volume as 30-06 and you're using the same light load approach.

 

[TheOfficeT-Rex]

The odd powder color is from the primer igniting but not setting off the powder charge.

I’m not here to yuck your yum, but without moving to trailboss/tinstar/H4895 reduced loads you’re setting yourself up to chase issues- as you’re seeing now on two rifles. GLHF.

 

[fpgt72]

The odd powder color is from the primer igniting but not setting off the powder charge. This is very common when using SRP in cold climates.

I'll take a stab at the issue. This is multiple factors contributing to hangfires. You have a light charge/low case fill, old/weak primers, lower ambient temps, and the powder biased to the front of the cartridge (powder slides forward every time your fire). Your load on it's face isn't dangerous but the combination of factors are causing random ignition. It probably goes away when it's hot outside or you tip the gun back between rounds. You can test this by either using magnum primers or adding a couple of grains of powder. You're encountering the same issue in 54R because it has roughly the same case volume as 30-06 and you're using the same light load approach.

Thanks for that, I learned quite a bit in your post.

With what you say it is sounding right. I did not notice this last summer in the 3006, the 54R is a new recipe for me.

It could very well be the older primers, that is also new across the board.

 

[Cascade Hemi]

View attachment 8361182

I’m not here to yuck your yum, but without moving to trailboss/tinstar/H4895 reduced loads you’re setting yourself up to chase issues- as you’re seeing now on two rifles. GLHF.

4895 in all flavors will have worse fill percentage, pressure to pressure. The recoil would probably feel pretty similar but ignition may be worse, all things being equal. 44gr of Varget and 44gr of 4895 all hover around too little pressure. 52gr of H4350 would bring the load up to 40kPSI, 100fps more velocity, and 97% fill. Or try magnum primers.

 

[TheOfficeT-Rex]

4895 in all flavors will have worse fill percentage, pressure to pressure. The recoil would probably feel pretty similar but ignition may be worse, all things being equal. 44gr of Varget and 44gr of 4895 all hover around too little pressure. 52gr of H4350 would bring the load up to 40kPSI, 100fps more velocity, and 97% fill. Or try magnum primers.

I have no personal experience with reduced 4895 loads, but was referencing this paper from Hodgdon.

Like wildcats, the further off-piste you go, the more troubleshooting you're forced to do yourself.

 

[hlee]

Hodgdon might beg to differ on the suitability of H4895 for reduced loads…

https://hodgdonpowderco.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/04/h4895-reduced-rifle-loads-2.pdf

Edit- T. rex beat me to it.

 

[Cascade Hemi]

I have no personal experience with reduced 4895 loads, but was referencing this paper from Hodgdon.

Like wildcats, the further off-piste you go, the more troubleshooting you're forced to do yourself.

I meant if the OP wants to continue with reduced loads. The powder he's using now is more than suitable, as is 4895, if he just increases the load.

 

[fpgt72]

Hodgdon might beg to differ on the suitability of H4895 for reduced loads…

https://hodgdonpowderco.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/04/h4895-reduced-rifle-loads-2.pdf

Edit- T. rex beat me to it.

I have never used H but have used IMR quite a bit.

It just seems like IMR is just more available, I think I remember Hodgden distributing IMR as well, I want to say it is an Oz company, but not sure.

Varget and IMR 4895 in old "full power" military cartridges crosses a great many boxes. You can find a published load for about anything in one of those two powders.

I loaded up some more 54R this week, but this time using new primers. If it stays nice today I might give those a run and see how they do. I do want to run them in a few other rifles.

I have an almost too pretty to shoot US marked Westinghouse I have had for a while and never shot. Gun looks like it was made yesterday. I think today might be the day.