Click No Bang With Reloaded Ammo

[mikehill85]

This past weekend I went to the range to shoot hand loads out of my Bergara B-14 HMR in 308 and 2 out of the 30 rounds didn't go off. I hit both of them twice and neither one detonated on the 2nd strike.

My reloading process is generally:
1. Deprime
2. Anneal
3. Clean in vibratory tumbler for 3 hours
4. Resize in F/L sizing die (Lee F/L sizing die with expander ball removed).
5. Neck size with expander mandrel
6. Trim
7. 1 hour cleaning in vibratory tumbler to remove any case lube and/or metal shavings
8. Prime
9. Add powder
10. Seat bullet

I didn't clean my brass with an ultrasonic cleaner and no moisture/water got into them (I made the ammo about 2 days before shooting it). Below are pictures of the two primers with a primer that successfully detonated for reference. To me it looks like the edges of the two primers have some scorching but they didn't go off all the way. The marks on the back don't look like light strikes to me. They are Remington 9 1/2 Large Rifle primers.

Anyway, I am wondering if anyone has any idea why this happened. The only thing I have been doing different recently (although I've had several range sessions using this method without incident) was switching from using my Lee F/L sizing die with expander ball to removing the expander ball and using an expander mandrel after running the brass through the F/L sizing die. Could this have perhaps made my brass slightly shorter resulting in more head space and a less solid hit on the brass? I just find it hard to believe that it could be the primers themselves that were to blame.

 

[Doom]

Either headspace was too large or more likely the primer wasn't set deep enough in the pocket to set the anvil into the priming compound.

 

[Huskydriver]

Was their actually powder in the cases those primers were pulled from?

What's your priming process?

 

[diverdon]

Is your bolt firing pin area clean/free from gunk?

 

[mikehill85]

Was their actually powder in the cases those primers were pulled from?

What's your priming process?

Yes. There was powder in both cases. IMR 4064. For priming, I use the primer arm that came with my LEE turret press.

 

[mikehill85]

Is your bolt firing pin area clean/free from gunk?

I took a look at this last night. The firing pin channel was clean and free of any debris.

 

[ShtrRdy]

Can we see a picture of the firing pin strike in the primer that didnt fire?

 

[mikehill85]

Can we see a picture of the firing pin strike in the primer that didnt fire?

There should be a picture in the original post. I show the strikes on the two that didn't fire. They look pretty solid to me.

 

[2aBaC̶a̶]

My guess is something to do with how you're seating primers. from what I've come to understand there should be a slight level of crush into the pocket.

 

[mikehill85]

Either headspace was too large or more likely the primer wasn't set deep enough in the pocket to set the anvil into the priming compound.

That's a good point. I hadn't considered that maybe the primers weren't seated deep enough. I think headspace is also possible but seems unlikely given how solid the hits on the primers look.

 

[mikehill85]

My guess is something to do with how you're seating primers. from what I've come to understand there should be a slight level of crush into the pocket.

Interesting. Yes, I think this is the most likely culprit. I had thought it might be a headspace issue (I'm going to double check that later on today) but it doesn't really fit with how solid the hits on the primers appear to be. How do you recommend ensuring the primers are properly seated? I am using the primer arm on a LEE turret press.

 

[TxWelder35]

Make sure there wasn’t any tumbler media in the flash holes

 

[Doom]

If you look at a new primer you will see the legs of the anvil protruding from the primer body. The crush that is often described is actually compressing the anvil into the compound and setting the primer body firmly against the case. That way the energy from the firing pin is concentrated on the priming compound and not is setting the anvil. Usually a primer that has this issue will often fire when re-fired.

 

[mikehill85]

Make sure there wasn’t any tumbler media in the flash holes

Good point. I am always very cautious to check there is no tumbler media in the flash holes after cleaning. I visually inspect each one to make sure I can see daylight through the flash hole. I also checked the extracted powder and primer and didn't find any tumbler media. That said, it is quite annoying that it seems all tumbler media is the perfect size to get stuck in the flash hole.

 

[2aBaC̶a̶]

Interesting. Yes, I think this is the most likely culprit. I had thought it might be a headspace issue (I'm going to double check that later on today) but it doesn't really fit with how solid the hits on the primers appear to be. How to you recommend ensuring the primers are properly seated? I am using the primer arm on a LEE turret press.

Im not sure on your setup, youll have to tinker with that. I set my primers just below flush on the case.

The theory is that when you seat it the little 3 armed metal spoke (anvil) that you see in the primer gets pushed back and sandwiches the explosive media in the back of the primer cup. then when the firing pin hits the cup it pinches against the anvil and ignites. if the anvil is not close enough to the back of the cup you dont get that pinch and no bang.

 

[NH4X]

Either headspace was too large or more likely the primer wasn't set deep enough in the pocket to set the anvil into the priming compound.

Could be a case of both of them at the same time

OP ,set primers to when you "feel them stop " in the bottom of primer pocket . I'd like to see a picture of the primer pocket of one of your fired cases.........if primers are set correct ,one will see a perfect "peace sign "....... assuming bottom of primer pockets are " square / level "

 

[Taylorbok]

Anvil looks compressed from the pics. I had one round like this not long ago. I chalked it up to a bad primer. The cup was very deformed from the firing pin, after I popped the primer I set it on the floor and hit with a hammer and it still didn't go off.

 

[mikehill85]

Anvil looks compressed from the pics. I had one round like this not long ago. I chalked it up to a bad primer. The cup was very deformed from the firing pin, after I popped the primer I set it on the floor and hit with a hammer and it still didn't go off.

Yeah, it is possible that there was an issue with that lot/batch of primers. Maybe they are rushing them out the door to meet the crazy demand over the past two years. That's the only thing, other than a reloading issue, that could explain getting two bad primers in one shooting session.

 

[mikehill85]

Could be a case of both of them at the same time

OP ,set primers to when you "feel them stop " in the bottom of primer pocket . I'd like to see a picture of the primer pocket of one of your fired cases.........if primers are set correct ,one will see a perfect "peace sign "....... assuming bottom of primer pockets are " square / level "

Here you go. From one of the rounds that fired. I always thought it looked like the radioactivity warning symbol myself.

 

[NH4X]

Here you go. From one of the rounds that fired. I always thought it looked like the radioactivity warning symbol myself.


View attachment 7988693

PERFECT

 

[Doom]

Anvil looks compressed from the pics. I had one round like this not long ago. I chalked it up to a bad primer. The cup was very deformed from the firing pin, after I popped the primer I set it on the floor and hit with a hammer and it still didn't go off.

They usually do. The anvil gets compressed by the firing pin, on the second strike they usually fire. It is very infrequent for a primer to be bad. I have never actually had one. I have had seating issues, in my case more frequently on pistol rounds than on rifle.

 

[Taylorbok]

They usually do. The anvil gets compressed by the firing pin, on the second strike they usually fire. It is very infrequent for a primer to be bad. I have never actually had one. I have had seating issues, in my case more frequently on pistol rounds than on rifle.

Ya it's the first and only time in several thousand reloads I've had one not go off. Seemed to be seated in the pocket just fine but the firing pin could have possibly pushed it in

 

[mikehill85]

David hit Paul with a hammer twice he didn't get off either oh shit wrong thread.

Savage...

 

[OREGUN]

The only time I’ve ever had a failure to fire in reloading tens of thousands of rifle rounds in every conceivable action (firing pin) from finely tuned customs (light spring) to factory Remingtons, with new cases and cases so worn out that the primer would barely stay in the pocket, the problem was that I opened a can of sparkling water and set it beside a block full of primed cases.

Point being, if it was only two out of many, I’ll bet 20$ it was a fouled primer. Light strikes from a bad spring would show up more frequently and all this “crush fit” business is more urban myth than real problem.

 

[Baron23]

Sure looks like those primers were well struck and have a nice indentation. to me this also means that the energy of the strike went into the primer rather than being absorbed by pushing a high prime inward in the case.

Bad primers happen…it’s an actual thing in both factory ammo and primers for reloading.

But I’ve been known to be wrong before.

 

[mikehill85]

I went to the range today with ammo I prepped in the exact same way and all of them detonated no problem.

 

[OREGUN]

That’s a few bad primers. Out of box failures, contaminated somehow, blocked flashhole maybe.

 

[Doom]

I went to the range today with ammo I prepped in the exact same way and all of them detonated no problem.

I'll pass this on for information. May not apply here. Federal Primers, especially LRP, are more sensitive than CCI, Remington and Winchester. I often see reports of CCI primer failure when switching from Federal. This is sometimes do to firing pin spring issues but more commonly not seating the primers properly.

 

[acudaowner]

with out knowing exactly it was do you by chance dry your cases after washing them , and double check if they are dry only takes a tiny bit of moisture to rain in on your parade .

 

[Modoc]

I'll pass this on for information. May not apply here. Federal Primers, especially LRP, are more sensitive than CCI, Remington and Winchester. I often see reports of CCI primer failure when switching from Federal. This is sometimes do to firing pin spring issues but more commonly not seating the primers properly.

I have seen this in revolvers that have been heavily tuned for competition. Super light springs and finely polished internals to make cycling easier, but will not ignite CCIs.

 

[mikehill85]

with out knowing exactly it was do you by chance dry your cases after washing them , and double check if they are dry only takes a tiny bit of moisture to rain in on your parade .

No. I don't dry them because I dry tumble them in a vibratory tumbler. My cleaning process doesn't introduce moisture into the cases.

 

[mikehill85]

I have seen this in revolvers that have been heavily tuned for competition. Super light springs and finely polished internals to make cycling easier, but will not ignite CCIs.

Interesting. I think the primers look well struck. So I'd say the primers probably got contaminated somehow or they were simply defective. It's entirely possible they could have been primers that I fumbled and dropped when using my LEE Safety Primer Feed. That thing is finicky and I have dropped primers with it before. If dust got in them or they were somehow damaged from the fall this could probably cause the failures.

 

[mikehill85]

I'll pass this on for information. May not apply here. Federal Primers, especially LRP, are more sensitive than CCI, Remington and Winchester. I often see reports of CCI primer failure when switching from Federal. This is sometimes do to firing pin spring issues but more commonly not seating the primers properly.

I did actually used to use Federal 210M primers before I ran out. I had no issues with those. It could have been a seating issue (though I do feel each primer to ensure it is slightly recessed after seating), it could be the primers got contaminated somehow, or simply bad primers (rare but possible). I don't think it's a weak firing pin spring, based on the way the primers were dented.

 

[mtrmn]

I did actually used to use Federal 210M primers before I ran out. I had no issues with those. It could have been a seating issue (though I do feel each primer to ensure it is slightly recessed after seating), it could be the primers got contaminated somehow, or simply bad primers (rare but possible). I don't think it's a weak firing pin spring, based on the way the primers were dented.

And your pics disprove the blocked flash hole theory--those primers never ignited. From what I've seen, primers are powerful enough to blow anything out of a flash hole short of maybe a broken off drill bit or something similar.
ETA: I once had a primer push a 230gr lead bullet all the way out the barrel (3 1/4"??) of a Detonics 45. I'd missed charging the case with powder.

 

[mikehill85]

And your pics disprove the blocked flash hole theory--those primers never ignited. From what I've seen, primers are powerful enough to blow anything out of a flash hole short of maybe a broken off drill bit or something similar.
ETA: I once had a primer push a 230gr lead bullet all the way out the barrel (3 1/4"??) of a Detonics 45. I'd missed charging the case with powder.

Yeah. I once missed putting powder in one of my rounds (out of the many 1,000s I've reloaded). In my case the bullet didn't make it out of the cartridge. That said 308 has much higher cartridge volume, which means the pressure the primer generated would be lower.
Yes, I think you're right. Even if the flash-hole was blocked, I think it would get unblocked in a hurry. Also, the primers clearly didn't go off, so a blocked flash-hole wasn't the culprit. I think either the primers got damaged/contaminated somehow or they were duds from the manufacturer.

 

[2aBaC̶a̶]

mandrel and arbor press to work on neck tension and seating consistency.

 

[Sdvldog1371]

Was their actually powder in the cases those primers were pulled from?

What's your priming process?

^^^^^^
This....I did that a few times when I was first learning to hand load and fighting all kinds mediocre equipment. You get frustrated or distracted or you don't have a set routine and its easy to miss a case.

 

[mikehill85]

^^^^^^
This....I did that a few times when I was first learning to hand load and fighting all kinds mediocre equipment. You get frustrated or distracted or you don't have a set routine and its easy to miss a case.

Yes. Both cases had powder in them.