Sidearms & Scatterguns Combat zero RMR

[Centuriator]

Hell just do Dot Torture at 5 yards. Most people can't clean it and it's easier than your drill.

My favorite warm up drill when drilling with my handgun is to begin nearly as close to the target as possible. Focus on putting three shots in same hole. Take large step back, repeat. Step back, repeat, and so forth, striving each time to put the shots in the same hole, until they start to spread out beyond a fist-sized group, then I walk it back in.

From there, my favorite drills are dot torture, followed up by Bill drills.

Quite honestly, I've played around with red dots on handguns and for my purposes, I found it not needed at all. For that matter, I don't much pay attention to the sights at 10-12 yards, but focus on getting the shots into the center mass area as quickly *and accurately* as possible. I don't see a red dot making much difference at those self-defense ranges.

But it is fun using a red dot at longer ranges and I can see in steel plate competition it might be a help.

 

[308pirate]

My favorite warm up drill when drilling with my handgun is to begin nearly as close to the target as possible. Focus on putting three shots in same hole. Take large step back, repeat. Step back, repeat, and so forth, striving each time to put the shots in the same hole, until they start to spread out beyond a fist-sized group, then I walk it back in.

From there, my favorite drills are dot torture, followed up by Bill drills.

Quite honestly, I've played around with red dots on handguns and for my purposes, I found it not needed at all. For that matter, I don't much pay attention to the sights at 10-12 yards, but focus on getting the shots into the center mass area as quickly *and accurately* as possible. I don't see a red dot making much difference at those self-defense ranges.

But it is fun using a red dot at longer ranges and I can see in steel plate competition it might be a help.

I was surprised to read in Ben Stoeger's latest book that he shoots everything, regardless of distance, with target focus. I've started doing the same and amazingly I don't lose that much in practical accuracy out to 30 yards.

 

[Centuriator]

I was surprised to read in Ben Stoeger's latest book that he shoots everything, regardless of distance, with target focus. I've started doing the same and amazingly I don't lose that much in practical accuracy out to 30 yards.

"Practical accuracy" ... A concept lost on many.

 

[Centuriator]

You have to push yourself when drilling and for me that means using a shot timer. You get a "flash" sight picture and go for it.

 

[clcustom1911]

So bullets leave the barrel and rise?

Got it.

Duh. Spin drift is vertical for right hand twist barrels. You didn't know that? I bet you didn't even know mils is more accurate!








?

 

[clcustom1911]

Hell just do Dot Torture at 5 yards. Most people can't clean it and it's easier than your drill.

That drill is such a mind fuck.

 

[Centuriator]

That drill is such a mind fuck.

"The Humbler"

 

[308pirate]

That drill is such a mind fuck.

I've cleaned it once. At 3 yards, with a CZ P-01.

The closest I've come with a revolver (I modified the original, LMK if you want a target posted) was 47 (out of a possible 48) at 5 yards with a S&W Model 64

 

[Centuriator]

I clean it all the time...from 3 feet.

 

[308pirate]

Hmmmm, maybe I should start a SH Dot Torture challenge.

 

[308pirate]

I clean it all the time...from 3 feet.

But muh sight offset..............

 

[Centuriator]

I have not had a good training day with handguns for several weeks...this thread inspired me to hit it hard this Saturday at my gun club.

 

[Centuriator]

But muh sight offset..............

I zero my sights for three feet and compensate for bullet rise.

 

[308pirate]

I zero my sights for three feet and compensate for bullet rise.

Roger that shipmate, because that's how The Teams do it

 

[308pirate]

I have not had a good training day with handguns for several weeks...this thread inspired me to hit it hard this Saturday at my gun club.

This will give you something to do: http://www.snipershide.com/shooting/threads/sh-handgun-dot-torture-challenge.6960141/

 

[Mackay Sagebrush]

Duh. Spin drift is vertical for right hand twist barrels. You didn't know that? I bet you didn't even know mils is more accurate!



?

Duh. Spin drift is vertical for right hand twist barrels. You didn't know that? I bet you didn't even know mils is more accurate!


?

@clcustom1911

I thought vertical spin drift only mattered if you were south of the equator?

 

[clcustom1911]

@clcustom1911

I thought vertical spin drift only mattered if you were south of the equator?

Depends on the ground speed of an unlaiden Swallow.

 

[Centuriator]

Although a definitive answer would of course require further measurements, published species-wide averages of wing length and body mass, initial Strouhal estimates based on those averages and cross-species comparisons, the Lund wind tunnel study of birds flying at a range of speeds, and revised Strouhal numbers based on that study all lead me to estimate that the average cruising airspeed velocity of an unladen European Swallow is roughly 11 meters per second, or 24 miles an hour.

 

[Mackay Sagebrush]

What kind of ammo do they shoot in comps?

Depends on the ground speed of an unlaiden Swallow.

That is a good point.

In order to maintain air-speed velocity, a swallow needs to beat its wings forty-three times every second, right?

 

[clcustom1911]

That is a good point.

In order to maintain air-speed velocity, a swallow needs to beat its wings forty-three times every second, right?

Well, ummm....

I don't know...dammit

 

[clcustom1911]

Although a definitive answer would of course require further measurements, published species-wide averages of wing length and body mass, initial Strouhal estimates based on those averages and cross-species comparisons, the Lund wind tunnel study of birds flying at a range of speeds, and revised Strouhal numbers based on that study all lead me to estimate that the average cruising airspeed velocity of an unladen European Swallow is roughly 11 meters per second, or 24 miles an hour.

 

[RyanScott]

Zeroing too close isn’t going to help because it’s a terrible way to compensate for mechanical offset. Just like with an AR. If you zero too close you’ll just screw your mid range trajectory.

As to long shots, I’ve met an LEO with a fatal OIS at 150 yards. With an iron sighted rifle. On a stabbed if I recall who was currently stabbing the victim. That’s good shooting, and while you don’t want to let the “my shooting” fantasy run your training and mindset, guys that can shoot well at longer ranges typically shoot better at shorter ranges because there is no advanced shooting just fundamentals applied better and faster...and long range shooting will reveal issues with your fundamentals immediately.

 

[SuckitTrebek]

If someone is preparing for when their position might be overrun at 25 yards and planning to use their pistol to fight their way to grab their rifle to engage in the fight, then 25 yards makes sense. There will about 11" of bullet rise between the pistol muzzle and the 25 yard target. A CrownVic and Suburban are about 21-23 feet long. A Wall Mart aisle may be 30 yards long without any exit. Most convenience store aisle's are shorter than a Suburban. Then there is Tueller's 21 foot (CrownVic again) Rule / Drill.
There are not too many tales of civilians engaging the bad guy at 25 yards without a Negative Outcome for the shooter. IF you need to engage at 25 yards, hold over the ~ width of your dot, again not likely you will be making a precision assassination shot.

https://tacticalprofessor.wordpress.com/serious-mistakes-gunowners-make/

Bad guys don't care what distance they are shot at or what they got shot with.

The distance one sights their CCW is the least of the issues that will face a civilian if a Negative Outcome results.

However , zeroing the firearm about the distance of a CrownVic or Suburban should serve you well, even at that distance the vertical discrepancy of the point of impact is less important the making sure one hasn't completely snatched the trigger right / left and completely missed the man sized target!

View attachment 7136573

Hell maybe you are 100% right. But I'm going to call bullshit on an 11inch rise between 0 and 25 yards for a pistol.

Bottom line:

Zero at 10, 15 or 25. don't make a rats ass of a difference when you are hitting center mast.

Just zero'd in my cz scorpion for 15 yards. made sense for a home defense weapon.

Does it really matter when aiming center mast? shit no. so what if the round is a few inches higher or lower if I happen to be shooting at something a little closer or further.


Here comes someone with the " a few inches could be the difference between hitting your target and not"

Yeah well. maybe if you suck in the first place. I'm center mast all day long. factor in whatever high pressure situation and a few inches higher or lower vertically won't matter. not in any situation from 0 to 50 yards.

32 round mags are a blessing too.

 

[RyanScott]

Mass. Center mass.

 

[Mute]

Are you people suggesting that coconuts migrate? Geez...

 

[Centuriator]

Are you people suggesting that coconuts migrate? Geez...

Swallow-born coconuts migrate.

 

[Anb618]

My favorite warm up drill when drilling with my handgun is to begin nearly as close to the target as possible. Focus on putting three shots in same hole. Take large step back, repeat. Step back, repeat, and so forth, striving each time to put the shots in the same hole, until they start to spread out beyond a fist-sized group, then I walk it back in.

From there, my favorite drills are dot torture, followed up by Bill drills.

Quite honestly, I've played around with red dots on handguns and for my purposes, I found it not needed at all. For that matter, I don't much pay attention to the sights at 10-12 yards, but focus on getting the shots into the center mass area as quickly *and accurately* as possible. I don't see a red dot making much difference at those self-defense ranges.

But it is fun using a red dot at longer ranges and I can see in steel plate competition it might be a help.

Your first drill reminded me of something a recent instructor had us do. Called it the 5 In 5, or maybe 5 And 5?

5 shots, in 5 seconds, in 5 yard increments, at 5 distances (5, 10, 15, 20, & 25). All done from LE duty/retention holster on a thoracic cavity target (10”x6” if I remember correctly?) . Very difficult. I consider myself a good shot with a handgun, and I can’t come close to cleaning the target. Requires a perfect grip, excellent recoil management, perfect trigger control, and great sight picture. Highly recommend it as a humbler for anyone who thinks they’re God’s gift to shooting handguns.

 

[Centuriator]

I'll give that drill a whirl, sounds great. Vickers runs a similar drill in his classes..I love the challenge. The handgun will keep you humble, that's for sure, and there is always room for improvement, which I enjoy! I suppose golf would get boring if every t-off resulted in a hole in one.

 

[Mute]

Swallow-born coconuts migrate.

A five ounce bird could not carry a one pound coconut.

 

[Mile High Shooting]

10 yd zero

 

[Herstal 12]

14.5 meters is all you need to zero a glock 19 at