Night Vision Combine thermal and IR? Not fusion…combined setup.

[91Eunozs]

OK, it’s probably been discussed here, but I can’t find a thread on it. Also, either my search skills are limited (likely), or there’s really not a lot of discussion on combining thermal and traditional night vision in one setup…not a fusion system, but one eye looking through a traditional NVD, and the other with a thermal.

Or possibly use the thermal for scanning, then flip down the IR to use with my IR laser.

Maybe it’s not discussed because it’s a bad idea, or maybe folks just tend to fall in one camp or the other…I honestly don’t know, but want to learn more!

Background: I flew aircraft, and later in my career also drove various vehicles, including MHE with NODs all the time when I was in the military. I also got to play with some of the early fusion systems a couple years before I retired, and wasn’t really impressed…but I’m sure tech has gotten a lot better in the 8+ years I’ve been retired. While I’m sure the tech will eventually trickle down, don’t think the civvie legal fusion stuff is quite where I want it to be yet.

In the other thread I started a few months ago, as I began my journey to replace my outdated kit, led me to believe I need to go straight thermal, with dual SkeetIR on my helm. And that would be a sweet setup! However, this approach will take me well above my self-imposed (and by ‘self’, I mean my CPA wife, LoL) limit of around $20K.

And I also recently upgraded my night vision game with a MAWL C1+ on my primary pig gun, so I’m a little reluctant to just completely jump off that band wagon:

Also considered a COTI but I’m actually trying to decrease total weight on my helm, not go heavier.

A new wrinkle, and the thing that inspired this thread is that one of the vendors here is offering a system where you can combine IR and thermal on the same bridge; this deal: https://www.customnightvision.com/product/night-vision-monocular-thermal-bridge-package/

…which is similar to one of the setups @wigwamitus recommended in post number 15 on my other thread; which really got the hears turning.

For close to that potentially unreasonable $20K limit I can get the latest L3 night vision tube on one eye, probably my dominant eye to use with the MAWL, and have a SkeetIR for scanning..or I could pop it off and use it as a hand-held scanner or rifle-mounted system.

Very tempting…. Pic is lifted from their website, so if this is verboten, I’ll delete the image:

Would appreciate any input from folks who have tried a similar setup…


Edit: Here’s the combo I’m considering; of course, I want the most ex$pensive options! LoL

 

[wigwamitus]

... don’t think the civvie legal fusion stuff is quite where I want it to be ...

AFAIK there are no legal restrictions - they are "vendor agreements" and "contracts" and such - by which goobermint orgs restrict who suppliers can sell contracted gear to.

... Pic is lifted from their website, so if this is verboten ...

AFAIK its not as long as you (or I) aren't shill's posting for CNV trying to hawk their wares ! Which I am definitely not doing !!
Restated, AFAIK we are allowed to make PSAs for vendor's products even if those vendors aren't hide supporters. As long as we aren't affiliated with the vendor.

But here is link for those who want to look further.

https://www.customnightvision.com/product/night-vision-monocular-thermal-bridge-package/



Also here's another screen shot - as we can see - they have multiple thermal monocular choices - so the poors can substitute chinese thermals for the skeet if desired.

They don't mention that they collimate the 2 optics together to try to help "merge" the images. In my experience running dual band setup like this is not about having the images merged. Its about having both nv and thermal hands free on my head so I can use them both hands free while moving. If your expectation was that the 2 units would magically 100% overlay each other, you might be disappointed.

Somehow my brain can either "merge" or switch between the 2 just by willing it to happen. I am not sure that happens for everyone. If I think there is a safety issue (like when rolling fast on 4 wheeler) I can use the on off switches built into my mkI EB (my eye lids) to shut one or the other off instantly without waiting for brain swap software to engage - and I have used this feature a number of times.
When I "merge" the images, I can definitely see both, but there is an offset. Essentially I see double. But hecque I've seen double all my life - I'm used to it - it doesn't bother me !!
But I do believe a knowledgeable person might be able to spin the rear ends of these critters ( removing / adjusting / reattaching ) to improve the collimation. The images between the 14 and thermal probably aren't the same size (I've used q-14, gen1 ATN ODIN, skeet, patrol, breach and n18 up there that I can recall and none matched on size exactly) nor are they the same shape - the thermals are retangular, the 14 is a circle. So even if collimated only the center of the dual image might not be seeing double. The outer edges probably will still see double (primarily due to the 2 optics not matching on actual magnification).

The cotis, whether 640 or 320 do line up exactly due to how they work. So we call that "fusion" while we call the 14 + thermal monocular on bridge "dual band" as some means of differentiating.
Some will arge that even coti+ 14 is not "True Fusion" but we leave those nuances for the higher philosophers. The images do line up and that is worth something even for me, because I want to be able to use the laser and hit what I am aiming at and there are a surprising number of cases - involving vegetation - where the thermal can see the target but the 14 can't but the 14 can see the laser and the thermal can't and I still have a shot and get critters I couldn't otherwise get. And again that is worth something even to me. Hence I sometimes go out with BOTH.

Left to right

L - China ecoti 640 + 14

M - 2x14s and 320 coti

R - 1 x 14, coti 320 and thermal monocular

Plus of L is lightest least bulky but enables shooting with laser and has improve thermal PID over the 320 cotis.

M - offers depth of field for driving conveyances with "glass" on front, but still allows shooting with laser at targets hidden behind vegetation

R - Offers shooting with laser with fused image AND offers long distance PID with thermal

I use them all depending on what I am doing that night.

 

[mrtoyz]

Firstly, I am a newb lto NV, so please keep that in mind.
OP, why not the Jerry FB? It’s “fusion” and in this price range if I recall.

 

[rlsmith1]

What is your goal / use case?

You might be surprised what a set of binos + a COTI actually weights compared to a thermal + 14 + bridge. Especially is you use RPO optics or snag a set of 31’s.

If you’re hunting, thermal all the way! I run a single NOX on my helmet and am mot left wanting (I’m sure if I ran duals I’d never go back)

 

[91Eunozs]

Firstly, I am a newb lto NV, so please keep that in mind.
OP, why not the Jerry FB? It’s “fusion” and in this price range if I recall.

Weight, for me.

And if I decide to go ‘fusion’, I want to get the real deal…no fucking around at that point.

I want the benefits of both IR and thermal, and would seriously consider cashing in some stock to get the fused binoculars currently being used by the folks my teams supported when I was still somebody, if they were available outside .mil channels. May call TNVC…I’m sure anything’s available for the right money. That said, it looks like at least a year-long wait even for agencies, so availability is very much a consideration too.

Just wondering if this route is a viable intermediate step…

 

[91Eunozs]

What is your goal / use case?

You might be surprised what a set of binos + a COTI actually weights compared to a thermal + 14 + bridge. Especially is you use RPO optics or snag a set of 31’s.

If you’re hunting, thermal all the way! I run a single NOX on my helmet and am mot left wanting (I’m sure if I ran duals I’d never go back)

Almost exclusively pig hunting on a few thousand acres owned by some family friends. Some LARPing with my son and some shooting buddies too…

and yeah, @TheHorta recommended dual thermal and I love the idea of dual Skeets, but not super stoked about spending almost fusion money for straight thermal, even though I think it’d work great for 90% of my needs.

But man, I’ve really come to like that IR laser since I go the MAWL.

 

[rlsmith1]

Almost exclusively pig hunting on a few thousand acres owned by some family friends. Some LARPing with my son and some shooting buddies too…

and yeah, @TheHorta recommended dual thermal and I love the idea of dual Skeets, but not super stoked about spending almost fusion money for straight thermal, even though I think it’d work great for 90% of my needs.

But man, I’ve really come to like that IR laser since I go the MAWL.

If you’re just hunting, thermal is the way to go. If you see any use case outside of that, then I2 is still relevant.

Pigs are good size animals, I’d bet you get detection with a COTI in an open field out to 200-300 yds. Hard to beat a dedicated thermal (even fusion isn’t equal from what I’ve heard); I’ve spotted deer in CRP grass at 500-600 yds and cattle in the middle of a pasture at well over 1k.

Personally, I run an NOX on my helmet and a PVS30 on my rifle to scratch my I2 itch. I do miss the point and shoot capability of the MAWL I had (and sold). I’ll own a thermal clip on someday but not yet.

Hate to throw another variable in there, but you might consider a Voodoo S, that would allow you to run a thermal clip on if you decide that is something you’re after (and still give you good HMT capability). The Skeet / NOX units will excel at HMT while the Voodoo will be better as a clip on (simply due to the FOV)

 

[mrtoyz]

Weight, for me.

And if I decide to go ‘fusion’, I want to get the real deal…no fucking around at that point.

I want the benefits of both IR and thermal, and would seriously consider cashing in some stock to get the fused binoculars currently being used by the folks my teams supported when I was still somebody, if they were available outside .mil channels. May call TNVC…I’m sure anything’s available for the right money. That said, it looks like at least a year-long wait even for agencies, so availability is very much a consideration too.

Just wondering if this route is a viable intermediate step…

Newb question alert: Looks like the Jerry FB weighs 21oz sans battery pack. If I recall light weight NV goggles (31’s) weigh 17’ish. Given the addition of thermal I wouldn’t think 4oz is out of line. I’m super curious about what you are referring to as the real deal fusion and what it weighs. Sounds like it’s a fortune.

 

[91Eunozs]

Newb question alert: Looks like the Jerry FB weighs 21oz sans battery pack. If I recall light weight NV goggles (31’s) weigh 17’ish. Given the addition of thermal I wouldn’t think 4oz is out of line. I’m super curious about what you are referring to as the real deal fusion and what it weighs. Sounds like it’s a fortune.

Maybe I’m mistaken, and please correct me if I’m wrong, but the Jerry is a clip on…right? So that weight would be additive to the IR/NVG weight.

Edit: Just looked up the FB…. Pretty cool. May be the 1/2 step answer I’m looking for over my current filmed 14s. Looks kind of ‘plasticky’ though…Anyone here using them? Durable?

’Real deal’ fusion stuff for me would be the gen 3 ENVG that were coming out when I retired in 2015, and lately have added wireless connected weapons sights. I’m sure there’s far better stuff out there now. Those were just under two pounds for the helmet system and battery pack IIRC, and cost almost $40K for a set, though that price included some spares and accessories if memory serves. Probably double that now.

The closest to a civvie version I’m aware of is the AGM F14, at around 1 pound. (Edit: jerry FB mentioned above too). While I’ve admittedly never even seen one in person, let alone looked through it or worked with one, it’s probably similar to the Gen 1 ENVG stuff I did get to work with in the 2010-2012 timeframe…cool stuff, but I wasn’t all that impressed with the ‘fusion’ effect in those early systems. That said, for < $8K, that AGM system may be worth a closer look.

 

[mrtoyz]

Maybe I’m mistaken, and please correct me if I’m wrong, but the Jerry is a clip on…right? So that weight would be additive to the IR/NVG weight.

Edit: Just looked up the FB…. Pretty cool. May be the 1/2 step answer I’m looking for over my current filmed 14s. Looks kind of ‘plasticky’ though…Anyone here using them? Durable?

’Real deal’ fusion stuff for me would be the gen 3 ENVG that were coming out when I retired in 2015, and lately have added wireless connected weapons sights. I’m sure there’s far better stuff out there now. Those were just under two pounds for the helmet system and battery pack IIRC, and cost almost $40K for a set, though that price included some spares and accessories if memory serves. Probably double that now.

The closest to a civvie version I’m aware of is the AGM F14, at around 1 pound. (Edit: jerry FB mentioned above too). While I’ve admittedly never even seen one in person, let alone looked through it or worked with one, it’s probably similar to the Gen 1 ENVG stuff I did get to work with in the 2010-2012 timeframe…cool stuff, but I wasn’t all that impressed with the ‘fusion’ effect in those early systems. That said, for < $8K, that AGM system may be worth a closer look.

Appreciate the info. I’ve been causally researching fusion and the Jerry FB looked to be the newest commercial offering. I do know there’s some experience with the Jerry FB on the Hide as it’s been discussed in at least one thread that I’ve seen. I am really curious to hear more about it and I’ll definitely spend some time looking up the other options you mentioned above. Appreciate you taking the time.

 

[LawnMM]

Consider your brain may not like it. Looking at fusion through one or both eyes when combined is one thing, trying to make your head do the combining may not be very comfortable.

I tried it, and hated it. NV on my head, thermal on the weapons IMO.

 

[pyplynr]

I'm running a 14 on the right side and a IRay MH25 on the left. Then have dedicated thermal on rifle.

 

[ggmanning]

Side by side didn't work well for me...I didn't like it. I now keep NV on by head, thermal scanner around my neck and thermal sight on the rifle. I can hold up the thermal scanner to the other eye if both are needed but I don't. The more I night hunt the less I use NV in favor of thermal. I just don't have the need for IR heads up shooting vs using the thermal scope on the rifle.

 

[LawnMM]

If your brain will do it, then it's great. It gave me a hellacious headache. Maybe the newer thermals are better I tried it with a FLIR breach. Major yuck.

I do like thermal on a rifle, if you're going to do stationary observation anyway. Moving around at night, I still like NV the resolution and depth perception are much better and don't make me sick.

 

[Charger442]

I'm running a 14 on the right side and a IRay MH25 on the left. Then have dedicated thermal on rifle.

View attachment 8240337

im glad i searched here more. im going with an upgraded thermal clipon and i have one PVS 14 on my helmet , and was looking at the Jerry FB.... but i have heard some friends running a similar setup to this, but for some reason i didnt entertain it right away.

are you truly using two eye open "fusion" or are you one eyeing it with both of these down? is it possible to run seperate, independent arms to raise one and lower the other and vice versa?

 

[pyplynr]

im glad i searched here more. im going with an upgraded thermal clipon and i have one PVS 14 on my helmet , and was looking at the Jerry FB.... but i have heard some friends running a similar setup to this, but for some reason i didnt entertain it right away.

are you truly using two eye open "fusion" or are you one eyeing it with both of these down? is it possible to run seperate, independent arms to raise one and lower the other and vice versa?

Yes, I run both at the same time, both eyes open. Some can do it, some can't. There are nights where my brain will only see the dominate eye (NV) until I close it and then the non-dominate eye (Thermal) will then overlay on top of the NV. This bridge will let me move both independently and I've done that from time to time depending on the situation.

 

[AmmoFort]

Yes, I run both at the same time, both eyes open. Some can do it, some can't. There are nights where my brain will only see the dominate eye (NV) until I close it and then the non-dominate eye (Thermal) will then overlay on top of the NV. This bridge will let me move both independently and I've done that from time to time depending on the situation.

I do the same. It doesn't cause me any stress, but I'm usually only looking through them for an hour or 2 tops. PVS14 and a NOX18

im glad i searched here more. im going with an upgraded thermal clipon and i have one PVS 14 on my helmet , and was looking at the Jerry FB.... but i have heard some friends running a similar setup to this, but for some reason i didnt entertain it right away.

are you truly using two eye open "fusion" or are you one eyeing it with both of these down? is it possible to run seperate, independent arms to raise one and lower the other and vice versa?

I don't always try to fuse the images in my head. I do at certain times, but definitely not all the time. For me it's like I focus my attention to one device at a time and the other is a peripheral view. Best way I can explain it.

For anyone wondering if this could work for them, do the eye poke block like this. If it doesn't bother you to mentally switch between the left and right side you might be good. You also have to think about the fact that the images will be different colors, brightness levels, and possibly magnification differences. And I see a lot of grumbling about refresh rates as well.