Competition Registration Thoughts

[GasLight]

Hello all,

Just some thoughts on the recent craze of competitions filling up in just the first few seconds of match registration. I think on face value that the idea of submitting an email and filling the competition first come first serve is valid, however I personally think it lends somewhat of an advantage to some people. For instance if someone is at work during the first few minutes, it isn't always possible to be sitting with a mouse held over the 'submit' button allowing you a chance at being in the first 00:00:00.1 seconds of the registration. Also, internet connection speeds and the like create issues for submission times. Don't take this the wrong way as a guy bitching because he didn't get into a comp, because so far thanks to a waiting list and the generousity of Rifles Only to extend their match to 2 seperate events, I have made it in to every competition that I have registered for. I am just musing on ways to maybe make things better or easier for both match directors and competitors.

SO, with that, here is my thought. I know ever match has a select number of slots for sponsors and possibly for mil/LEO. That is an awesome practice, and I think is at the heart of why these matches have grown and become so popular. This leaves a few slots that are basically up first come first serve. This is where I could see a change in practice. Instead of first come first serve, what does anyone think of a 'lottery' style drawing of people who would like to compete? Fill the slots for the Sponsors/Mil/LEO, and then put everyone else into a drawing, should be easy enough to do this randomly on a computer, assigning everyone left a number. You can fill up the waiting list in the same manner.

I know it is hard for the match directors, as there has become an overwhelming number of shooters interested in shooting. It is awesome to see the interest, and I would love to see the sport grow even more.

Anyway, just some thoughts, and would be curious to hear others' input and opinions too.

Dave

 

[Outsydlooknin75]

Re: Competition Registration Thoughts

I think the way Ft Benning 3gun has done it is a great way.

Match is in December, sometime in April/May they will have registration. Registration is a click of the button at 2130 EST, that is late enough that people on the west coast can be home but still early enough for the east coasters. With the click of the button you can get yourself and another person a registration number. With that registration number you are either IN or on the waiting list. Once you are originally IN, you then get the application and you need to put your number on it then send in your aplication and your money by a specific date. If your money and app isnt in by that date, then basically you just gave your spot up to someone on the wait list.

It was mentioned in the SB the other day that one MD likes the idea of comps by invite only. I personally think that is a HORRIBLE idea. I feel that the sport would never grow and that it would become nothing but a popularity contest if it was by invite only.

 

[bmarc69]

Re: Competition Registration Thoughts

The FB3G registration is exactly the type he is talking about. Faster connection speeds and such do make a difference no matter what time of day you hold the registration. The lottery doesn't sound like a bad idea but there is no way to make everyone happy. We just need more comps.lol I'm very interested in what others have to say on this and will be following this thread closely.

 

[NorCal Vu]

Re: Competition Registration Thoughts

Outsy,

If you want to refer to my comments, do so by my name...I have nothing to hide.

This sport doesn't grow by national level comps, it grows by having monthly venues that shooters can learn from and develop their skills at.

Events like SH Cup, Bash, ASC, TPRC, and other high level comps are where accomplish shooters want to go test thier skills against other accomplished shooters.

People will vote with their dollars, and if we as a club decide that we want to go "invite only" to avoid the heartache of ass hats being there, we will go that route.

Just a lil thought before you start talking growing the sport...I think it is safe to say that NCPPRC has grown the Tac LR game here on the West Coast quite well.

100 members strong with 45 on the wait list.

We ran over 650 competitors through our monthly events last year. We take the time and effort to put on two big clinics a year to bring new shooters online as well.

Anyone that has shot with our club know that we promote and encourage new shooters ALL the time.

Tell you what, when you put on a national level comp for about 4 to 5 years, we'll talk.

 

[NorCal Vu]

Re: Competition Registration Thoughts

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bmarc69</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The FB3G registration is exactly the type he is talking about. Faster connection speeds and such do make a difference no matter what time of day you hold the registration. The lottery doesn't sound like a bad idea but there is no way to make everyone happy. We just need more comps.lol I'm very interested in what others have to say on this and will be following this thread closely. </div></div>

+1 on more comps! How about it Outsy...put your money where your mouth is bud.

 

[bmarc69]

Re: Competition Registration Thoughts

Vu,
Just a question. If you were to go to "invite only" and say you went through your invite list and you still have openings due to schedule conflicts and such, What would be a good way to fill those remaining spots? Or would you just leave them open? I guess that's two questions.lol

 

[TEAMSENDIT]

Re: Competition Registration Thoughts

Vu I couldn't agree with you more. It is one thing to do invite only for monthly matches, but it is fine for the really big matches.

Think about this in other top level sports, you don't get to sign up to play in the nfl, nba, or even college athletics of any type you have to demonstrate your abilities to go and alot of that is based on reputation. This isn't like fclass or highpower where you shoot the same course of fire at every match. There is no national organization you can register with to qualify as a "high master".

I say if you want to get into the nationally known matches shoot some local matches and win a few or at least place in the top 5. If you shoot well enough they will want you at the major comps, you will get noticed and invited if you are good enough.

Take all this with a grain of salt, I am fairly new to this sport and have shot in a half dozen matches. I just know that if you are a good enough shooter competitively that some company will want you to represent them, which will in turn get you into alot of matches. Look at team blaster guys they are a great model, they have shot tons of matches and have done very well. In doing so they have quite a few top level sponsors. I know if i were holding a match that i wanted to be a nationally known match i damn sure would invite them. I think terry cross can probably get into damn near any match he wants, along with other big names in the sport.

If you want to play with the big boys, shoot like the big boys and your time will come. at least i hope so because thats what keeps me practicing and trying to improve all the time.

"Don't whine about it, do something about it!!!!"

Rant over sorry

 

[Tribe]

Re: Competition Registration Thoughts

Word.

 

[GasLight]

Re: Competition Registration Thoughts

For the record, the intent of this thread was not to start complaining or bitching about how any of the match directors are currently doing anything, I was just throwing my idea out there about using a lottery style registration. If not, it won't stop me from trying to hit the 'submit' button

there was nothing personal intended, so hopefully we can keep that the theme here...

 

[desertratdad]

Re: Competition Registration Thoughts

Keep throwing out the ideas. None of these matches are the same. That's why we like them. Directors will use what they can or want. Wish I could make it to more of them.

Clint

 

[Hellbender]

Re: Competition Registration Thoughts

It really sucks but let the American way prevail...

Add $100 (or whatever) to the entry fees and let some of these MD's start making money for all their hard work and time.

If people start making money, there WILL be more comps!!

An extra $100 is nothing compared to the total outlay for going to a big match. Esp. if you could have several more and different matches to attend.

 

[Unknown]

Re: Competition Registration Thoughts

I really like the lottery idea. The only additional suggestion I would make would be that there be some way to insure some of the top level competitors get into the competition.

Almost all of us would like to see how we would fare against the "top guns". Perhaps a way to do that would be to have a few different classes, each with their own lottery.
1. Professionals (and known "top guns")
2. Intermediate level shooters
3. People not quite as skilled in these events, but still safe, and learning the craft

Each classification would receive X number of lottery picks, so all skill levels would have a fair chance at competing, and seeing how the really top level shooters perform.

The really encouraging thing in all of this is that, although most of these competitions fill up very quickly, that is an indication showing that interest in this type of event is growing rapidly. Having so much interest in this type of competition gets sponsors interested, because we all have to buy our rigs somewhere. Like Willie the bank robber said "Go where the money is."

 

[GasLight]

Re: Competition Registration Thoughts

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Unknown</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I really like the lottery idea. The only additional suggestion I would make would be that there be some way to insure some of the top level competitors get into the competition. </div></div>

I think most of the top level shooters are typically shooting under some of the sponsorship slots. I am not 100% sure about that, but thinking that most of these companies that are donating are wanting to send some of the top level shooters to represent their company.

That said, if that isn't how its done, I would agree that the MD at their discretion would make sure there are 'saved' slots for some of the better shooters to keep attention at the match.

DD

 

[ColoWyo]

Re: Competition Registration Thoughts

I think mailing it in is the bet way to go. As DD said, not everybody can be on a computer at a certain time on a certain date. Cops, military, pilots, and guys with desk jobs who can't access certain sights would really be at a huge dis-advantage with an on-line registration. Virtually everybody can get things over nighted sometime during the day.

 

[NorCal Vu]

Re: Competition Registration Thoughts

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DebosDave</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Unknown</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I really like the lottery idea. The only additional suggestion I would make would be that there be some way to insure some of the top level competitors get into the competition. </div></div>

I think most of the top level shooters are typically shooting under some of the sponsorship slots. I am not 100% sure about that, but thinking that most of these companies that are donating are wanting to send some of the top level shooters to represent their company.

That said, if that isn't how its done, I would agree that the MD at their discretion would make sure there are 'saved' slots for some of the better shooters to keep attention at the match.

DD </div></div>

DD,

Actually, a lot of the top shooters in our game are not sponsored by anyone.

Here is how I do TBRC. 60 slots total.

6 slots are giving to our top sponsors by MSRP.

4 Go to active duty military folks in the precision rifle game. These mainly go to a few friends from the 1/5 SS Platoon out of Camp Pendleton.

12 - 15 slots go to NCPPRC members. Even our own guys have to compete for these slots. They do so by shooting monthly matches. They also travel to matches away from home and have to place well.

That leaves me with around 35 slots.

These 35 go to open registration, however I always try to get the top shooters around the country in if they sign up. Sorry, if TERRY CROSS is late on registration. I will still give him a slot due to the fact that he is one of the best in the game, and donates a ton to this community. That is just a fact of life.

After all that, I always throw in as many "wildcards" as possible.

The true competitors go to events like SHC, Bash, ASC, TPRC and the likes for pure bragging rights. High level shooters want to have the chance to say they competed amoung the best and placed well.

 

[GasLight]

Re: Competition Registration Thoughts

Vu,

That sounds like a perfect setup. I was only speculating on the lottery style due to the mass signups and matches filling in seconds. This left me wondering if 50 people hit 'submit' at the same time, how does the computer line them up in your email. I suppose this is about as equitable as a lottery, but it does lend itself to what I view as a hinderance to some folks. Like I said, I have been accepted to shoot at every match I have tried so far, and wasn't just whining.

The fact that these matches are filling up so quickly speaks to the growing popularity of the sport, which has a TON to do with matches and Match Director's such as TBRC and yourself. I have nothing but the highest respect for you, and if you think invitational is the way to go, I would totally respect that, because you have WAY more knowledge than I do about how these things go, and what kind of people show up to them.

Thanks for giving your information here and helping us all understand better.

Dave

 

[BOLTRIPPER]

Re: Competition Registration Thoughts

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ColoWyo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I think mailing it in is the bet way to go. As DD said, not everybody can be on a computer at a certain time on a certain date. Cops, military, pilots, and guys with desk jobs who can't access certain sights would really be at a huge dis-advantage with an on-line registration. Virtually everybody can get things over nighted sometime during the day.</div></div>


for you retards that do in fact got a desk job that can not access certian sites.........HAVE YOU EVER CONSIDERED HAVEING SOMEONE ELSE DO IT FOR YOU,,,THAT CAN ACCESS ON TIME.......



I MEAN WHATS SO DIFFICULT ABOUT THAT......adapt and improvise



us platinum club members have been doing this technique for years

.....(in my best napolean dynomite)....gosh, flippin idiots....

 

[michael_aos]

Re: Competition Registration Thoughts

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DebosDave</div><div class="ubbcode-body">mil/LEO. That is an awesome practice</div></div>

Pet-peeve of mine. I really despise the LEO-"only" matches, whether they include active military or not.
--

 

[michael_aos]

Re: Competition Registration Thoughts

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Hellbender</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If people start making money, there WILL be more comps!!

An extra $100 is nothing compared to the total outlay for going to a big match. Esp. if you could have several more and different matches to attend. </div></div>

I can't say I disagree.

 

[michael_aos]

Re: Competition Registration Thoughts

Along the lines of the invite-only...

What about some kind of qualification system?

Where you have to place in the top-10 in local or similar matches, or at least be active in the community to participate?

It would potentially encourage people to participate locally as well.

 

[Rob01]

Re: Competition Registration Thoughts

But wouldn't work for us people with no "local" matches.

 

[NorCal Vu]

Re: Competition Registration Thoughts

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Michael Aos</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Hellbender</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If people start making money, there WILL be more comps!!

An extra $100 is nothing compared to the total outlay for going to a big match. Esp. if you could have several more and different matches to attend. </div></div>

I can't say I disagree. </div></div>

You have got to be joking right? 100.00 extra x 60 = 6000.00 for 4 days of work DURING the comp, plus numerous hours of prep prior to game week.

Now take that 6000.00 and divide that by the range crew *we run 30*, that comes out to 200.00 per, which comes out to 50.00 per day. LMAO.

 

[BOLTRIPPER]

Re: Competition Registration Thoughts

i think i drink $50.00/day in gatoraide.....

 

[NorCal Vu]

Re: Competition Registration Thoughts

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Michael Aos</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Along the lines of the invite-only...

What about some kind of qualification system?

Where you have to place in the top-10 in local or similar matches, or at least be active in the community to participate?

It would potentially encourage people to participate locally as well. </div></div>

Qualifications would be from "major" matches around the country of the likes of ASC, SHC, Bash, TPRC, TBRC, Oregon Sniper Challenge, basically matches that have been considered a national level event that are successful.

I haven't decided on next years event yet, just thinking of invitational only due to the clowns that wanted to debate why they need to be in this years event.

 

[BOLTRIPPER]

Re: Competition Registration Thoughts

i swear...them dudes in coloradro so love to lick stamps..........

 

[c ward]

Re: Competition Registration Thoughts

for you spoiled children that are married to the computer that can not get to the post office.........HAVE YOU EVER CONSIDERED HAVEING SOMEONE ELSE DO IT FOR YOU,,,THAT CAN ACCESS ON TIME.......


I MEAN WHATS SO DIFFICULT ABOUT THAT......adapt and improvise

 

[NorCal Vu]

Re: Competition Registration Thoughts

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bmarc69</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Vu,
Just a question. If you were to go to "invite only" and say you went through your invite list and you still have openings due to schedule conflicts and such, What would be a good way to fill those remaining spots? Or would you just leave them open? I guess that's two questions.lol </div></div>

Bmarc,

I apologize I did not get to this question sooner.

If we did not fill with the invites, which can happen. We will open up registration to the public at that time.

Just a note, we have yet to decide if we are going invite only yet, it was something that was under consideration. Not set in stone.

 

[Zak Smith]

Re: Competition Registration Thoughts

Wow, it's pretty obvious that someone wants to talk utter shit at every turn and almost everyone else is capable of being productive and adult.

Anyway.. My thoughts on registration:

In '07, as part of Colorado Multigun, I was involved in running the Camp Guernsey Invitational Multi-Gun match (carbine, pistol, bolt gun). We send out invites, to a list of highly-skilled shooters we knew would be interested. While that match turned out really good, I don't think the "invitational" aspect helped and I probably wouldn't do it again.

As a shooter, I hate trying to get registered for a match that is bound to sell out very quickly. In 2008, C.Ward and I got in to the Fort Benning 3-Gun match. It had online registration and sold out very quickly.

As a match director, I hate turning shooters away. Ideally, I want everyone who wants to shoot and has the capability to compete, to get a shooting slot.

It's great to have well known talented shooters show up, but I don't think it's fair to bump someone up the list simply because they are more well known.

Having company reps show up and shoot is great because of the connections the shooters can make with the companies, and the reps learn more about how our sport actually works and what we really want. On the other hand, a sponsor slot helps the shooters via the prize table; it does not help the match bottom line. I won't run a match that loses money, but nobody is making money either. If we had to run this like a business and not an amateur sport, the entry fees would have to be much, much higher.


<span style="font-weight: bold">One of the things I think is great about "Outlaw" matches like these field long-range matches is that anybody can show up and compete head to head with the best. No BS, no big-names needed, no "qualification" system. Just bring your A game and see how you stack up. </span>

These sports are "dynamic" and change from region to region. There are no "qualifier" stages and this is a good thing. If a local club puts on a "modified F class" match because that's all they can do, and they run a qualifier to get into a real field match, what is the relevance of pounding rounds on a KD range to hiking around in the desert trying to find targets?

For example, we have a lot of really good shooters show up from Oklahoma, but you don't hear about a lot of long-range matches going on there.

I don't really like the idea of a lottery because it rounds "down" the level of effort required for a chance to get into the match, and it's basically random. At a match like the SS, I want people to come who are highly motivated to get into the match-- to be self directed in their problem solving skills. If I leave registration open for two months and get 300 people in the lottery, the guy who wasn't paying attention or didn't have his shit together and applies after 8 weeks has the same chance in the lottery as the guy who applied as soon as it was open and is overall focused on getting into the match and succeeding. As a competitor, I want there to be something I can do to make it almost certain I'll get in, not just a crap shoot. If you think people get upset by having to mail registration or click like crazy on the internet, imagine the - legitimate IMO - complaints people would have if someone gets in because he places in the top 10 at a Podunk match with 11 competitors shooting dots at 200 yards, while the guy who places in the top 25% at a 60-guy 100-1000 yard UKD field match doesn't based on the arbitrary "local match place" criteria.

When demand for a match exceeds the supply of shooting slots, some people will be disappointed or pissed off. There's really no way around that. All match staff can do - without adjusting supply or demand - is make sure the signup process is well defined, transparent, and provides and equal opportunity to all-- this is fair.

Raising entry fees is one obvious way to match supply and demand. Nobody really wants this to happen but it provides natural matching of supply and demand and it certainly would help compensate those who spend countless hours to make the matches happen.

Another way to match supply and demand would be an application process that put more requirements on the applicant (ie not necessarily cost). This could be stuff that happens during the match or before the match. For example, matches that are extremely physically demanding have less demand than matches that a 50 year old fat guy can finish. Another example, team matches almost always have less demand than individual matches. Multi-gun matches (e.g. pistol, carbine, rifle) almost always have less demand than more conventional formats.

I might also add that matches that have a poor vision statement, or poor rules, or poor administration, or are likely to be a cluster**** have less demand.

I was originally attracted to field long-range shooting by stories from the ITRC. This was a super physical match with people puking due t exhaustion during stages and really hard shooting challenges, with round counts that put weapon reliability to the test. To me, those challenges are part of what field shooting is all about. One thing I would like to see are more matches with this level of intensity, for example, if we could run the entire 20-stage Steel Safari course as a "start at midnight and run it straight through for time" challenge. The level of fitness, organization, and skill required would scare away a lot of people who prefer bullet golf.

 

[ColoWyo]

Re: Competition Registration Thoughts

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BOLTRIPPER</div><div class="ubbcode-body">i swear...them dudes in coloradro so love to lick stamps.......... </div></div>

I find it rather amusing that you can't even spell Colorado correctly as you try to insult us.

 

[Swan]

Re: Competition Registration Thoughts

Could be worse.

Could have even more matches only open to mil/LEO.

Now that, is lame.

 

[GasLight]

Re: Competition Registration Thoughts

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Zak Smith</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I don't really like the idea of a lottery because it rounds "down" the level of effort required for a chance to get into the match, and it's basically random. At a match like the SS, I want people to come who are highly motivated to get into the match-- to be self directed in their problem solving skills. If I leave registration open for two months and get 300 people in the lottery, the guy who wasn't paying attention or didn't have his shit together and applies after 8 weeks has the same chance in the lottery as the guy who applied as soon as it was open and is overall focused on getting into the match and succeeding. As a competitor, I want there to be something I can do to make it almost certain I'll get in, not just a crap shoot. If you think people get upset by having to mail registration or click like crazy on the internet, imagine the - legitimate IMO - complaints people would have if someone gets in because he places in the top 10 at a Podunk match with 11 competitors shooting dots at 200 yards, while the guy who places in the top 25% at a 60-guy 100-1000 yard UKD field match doesn't based on the arbitrary "local match place" criteria.
</div></div>

Zak,

Some really great feedback here! I appreciate your input, and this statement that I quoted makes me think twice about the lottery idea myself. I like the thought of being motivated and adaptive if you really want to shoot.

DD

 

[Zak Smith]

Re: Competition Registration Thoughts

I realized reading it again that I should have written that as two paragraphs. The last part was in reference to the idea of using local matches as a qualifier.

Along the lines of "motivation" and how it relates to registration:

Long-range shooting is not easy, and it doesn't get any easier when you add stress, heat, time, movement, and "terrain" shoot positions. To succeed, you need to go past the bare minimum effort-- you need to anticipate the challenges and figure out what you have to do to excel and win. The creme of the crop succeed. This is why I see little point in catering to the lowest common denominator in registration. If you want to win the match, you have to get there first.

That's the "task, conditions, results desired" that C.Ward posted before. For all the complaining in the 2011 SS thread, that's what it came down to: people who did not correctly ascertain the tasks that would give the desired results given the conditions. (Actually two of the three didn't even try to apply for 2011.)

I don't want shooters who can only do the minimum or those that cannot follow simple directions. I don't mind if you show up and don't shoot great, but if I have competitors who wander off the course, fire at the wrong targets, cannot relay instructions verbatim to the next shooter, decide to do something ad-hoc when a target goes down, or yack incessantly when they need to get another shooter on the clock-- then the match starts to have problems. Nobody wants match delays, dropped stages, or vague differences in stage procedure, but these can be the result of people who are not "switched on". So I don't feel too bad that there isn't a long, lazy sign-up period for the SS where anyone can try for a spot by clicking a web-site sometime in a six month period. I'd rather have the guys who are strongly motivated to show up and take action to ensure their success.

 

[NorCal Vu]

Re: Competition Registration Thoughts

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Zak Smith</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I don't want shooters who can only do the minimum or those that cannot follow simple directions. I don't mind if you show up and don't shoot great, but if I have competitors who wander off the course, fire at the wrong targets, cannot relay instructions verbatim to the next shooter, decide to do something ad-hoc when a target goes down, or yack incessantly when they need to get another shooter on the clock-- then the match starts to have problems. Nobody wants match delays, dropped stages, or vague differences in stage procedure, but these can be the result of people who are not "switched on". So I don't feel too bad that there isn't a long, lazy sign-up period for the SS where anyone can try for a spot by clicking a web-site sometime in a six month period. I'd rather have the guys who are strongly motivated to show up and take action to ensure their success. </div></div>

+1 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[BOLTRIPPER]

Re: Competition Registration Thoughts

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ColoWyo</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BOLTRIPPER</div><div class="ubbcode-body">i swear...them dudes in coloradro so love to lick stamps.......... </div></div>

I find it rather amusing that you can't even spell Colorado correctly as you try to insult us.</div></div>


dude....i was going to put marble licker.......but i figured it would be lost on a drone such as yourself......

you guys will have a fine match....and once again some of the savvy that have shot your local match before....years before...did in fact see the writing on the wall, and trust me on this one ....you can not win by trying to beat one day mail service....unless you fuckin cheat......

 

[Zak Smith]

Re: Competition Registration Thoughts

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">dude....i was going to put marble licker.......but i figured it would be lost on a drone such as yourself......

you guys will have a fine match....and once again some of the savvy that have shot your local match before....years before...did in fact see the writing on the wall, and trust me on this one ....you can not win by trying to beat one day mail service....unless you fuckin cheat......</div></div>
Every - every - alleged complaint you brought up in the "2011 Steel Safari" thread I responded to in detail, multiple times.

I'll rephrase the answer to this one again here- A very, very small number of people who used USPS regular mail got into the match. Even for people in the Denver area, I would have considered this a gamble. The vast majority of people who got into the match used an overnight service (USPS ovenight, FEDEX, UPS, etc) - even people who lived in the Denver area used these overnight services. Your complaint has no merit. Futhermore, you have no standing to complain as you didn't even submit an application the last two years.

In fact, you can beat USPS mail delivery simply: by using one of the overnight services that delivers before the USPS mail is delivered (that's most of them). This year it was very simple: if you used overnight service for Tuesday delivery, you got in.

For the sake of everyone else, and this pretty interesting and productive thread, please, if you have additional shit to talk about the SS registration, go back and do it in that thread.

 

[ColoWyo]

Re: Competition Registration Thoughts

Bolt, if you're going to continue with the weak attempts at personal attacks, show a little class and do it with a P.M. instead of high jacking threads with your pathetic bitching and moaning.

Savvy?????

 

[Lindy]

Re: Competition Registration Thoughts

I think I'm going to sit on my hands.

 

[gunrunner]

Re: Competition Registration Thoughts

The club I belong to hosts a rifle match, in addition to other matches, once a month. No slots are reserved for anyone and you don't have to qualify to enter. If you want to shoot, simply show up. You register when you arrive. We don't turn anyone away since we feel that if you are willing to drive to our club to shoot, then your hard earned money is as good as anyone else's.

 

[c ward]

Re: Competition Registration Thoughts

What I think will speak wonders is how much one person is bitching and moaning but if you happen to look at his posts about matches its all on the shooter side and not the admin side . Never have seen any about helping run a match .

Also there has still been no answer to how internet sign up would have changed the outcome . The same results would have happened , match fills up faster than expected , people who want too shoot can't , and somebody gets butt hurt and bitches on the internet . I think what it boils down to is they thought that the internet sign up would have benefited them and it doesn't matter that it was fair to everyone .




Now on the registration discussion , my view that has always been first come first served . This is the only true fair way for everybody . Whether the match has internet , mail in , or other ways to sign up is up to the match director . In my view mail in registration is the most fair in that manner as the availability of overnight service is world wide and affords the same desired results to everyone regardless of location .

The local match that I help run at NRAWC simply has the gates open on the day of the match and sign up runs until they close at 8am . We have gone from 6 - 10 guys a month to 50 - 70 since it started in '05 . This is all first come first served with no preregistration .

The fact that matches that previously that took weeks or months to sell out now go in minutes or seconds is testament to the popularity of long range precision shooting . The 3gun world dealt with this years ago and haven't been able to come up with a fair workable solution either other than a bunch of new matches .

How long a match takes to fill up is simple supply and demand . The Ft Benning 3 gun match that Zak discussed sold out , 200 shooters , in .8 seconds online and my submission went in at 1.1 seconds and was 125th or so on the waiting list . This was the first year that they had online set up and on the day they published as the test day for the sign up process the number of responses crashed the server forcing them to start over and rewrite the registration program . The next year IIRC it sold out in under .1 seconds .

Online registration isn't the answer it is just how some match directors choose to handle it , neither good or bad .

In my view though it does cater to the people how have a situation that permits them to set at the keyboard with the application filled out and there finger hovering over the mouse waiting for the submission time .

Now people that have jobs that force them to be away from the internet for long periods , such as LEO's and military , are basically SOL on the big matches that sell out in seconds , doesn't seem entirely fair does it ?

Lottery's for the reasons stated before do not reward the shooter who works to make things happen to get into the match and really sucks when you have to request vacation at the first of the year and then gamble on whether or not you will even get to shoot .

The answer is not in how sign up is done and honestly with the way long range precision shooting has grown in the last 5 or so years I can't give one .

From where I'm sitting there needs to be more opportunities to shoot to reduce the demand on the matches that are all ready here .

 

[JasonB]

Re: Competition Registration Thoughts

Only true fair way to have match registration is to give people ample time to get the app in ... Say 2 weeks(or whatever) ... and then randomly pick your shooters ...

Im not saying that is the way I would do it or how I want to see it done... I am only saying that is the only true fair way.

I like the way NCPPRC does Reg.

As it is now you have to be semi-selective on who gets accepted... there are a number of assclowns out there I wouldn't want shooting at TBRC ...

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Competition Registration Thoughts

The only way you can satisfy everyone is to keep adding dates until everyone is happy, which is just silly. Nobody can do a weeks worth of competition just to make a few people satisfied.

At the Bash we sold out in 53 seconds, we use online registration because it is easy to track times and it allows Lisa to manage everyone as well as respond in a timely manner to tell them they have entered. The key here is getting your money in, failure to pay bumps you from the list so we can get someone off the waiting list.

Raising the fees is another way, and as a match director I am all about it, same work more money in my pocket. The issue with that is you reach a point where you hurt more people than you are helping. I try to keep it reasonable, and honestly with the size of our prize tables, I don't know anyone who hasn't left with all their money back in prizes. One way or another you money is returned in full.

The biggest issue we see, and to be perfectly blunt, it's people who sign up knowing full well they are not going to attend. Then they drop out with bs excuses at the last minute. A week later these same people will be crying for a refund even though it clearly states no refunds. Heck we had a guy drop out for a "medical emergency" at the last minute only to post how he shot a local match. This fucks the next guy, and you hate it because you know you have good people on the waiting list. it becomes a case of not being able to move someone off the waiting list because it is last minute.

Really, the biggest problems we see are exactly what is happening here, the few squeaky wheels that bitch and complain but then are the first to screw their fellow competitor over by taking a slot they can't use. They are usually our problem children during the match. Slowing things up, getting in the way.

For SH & RO, we feel the online registration is the best way to go, also we added a second day to both matches, because we can accommodate more shooters. It screws us during the CUP because that was originally 3 days and we had to gear it back to 2, but this way we know, we can pass 100 shooters through in 4 days , and it runs much better. 2 matches with 50 shooters each is better than one match with 65, at least in our opinion.

As far as manufacturers slots, we had to change that a bit to only give slots to those manufacturers who give more. I think our cut off is around $5k for a manufacturer slot. Had to be, because we take up a lot of space with sponsors wanting slots.

Finally, I will also say we have a black list, where if you screw up, you don't get to come back, I don't care how fast you send in your registration. And we pool our black list, it's not just one person's opinion but a combination of recommended names. Do we use it, damn straight...take a slot and drop out at the last minute, you may find yourself missing a year or two of SH Matches. There are plenty of other things may get you black listed as well.

 

[Zak Smith]

Re: Competition Registration Thoughts

Great points, Lowlight.

 

[LRS_Ranger]

Re: Competition Registration Thoughts

How about having a hybrid system, where half qualify by scoring well in local matches, and those who don't place so well can still do the lottery thing? That way, you would have both high caliber shooters to compete with, and people who might not be as good still have a chance with the lottery. Perhaps make it so that you have to shoot one local match to enter the lottery as an effort to weed out any D-bags. Another idea could be to identify key jobs and tasks to make the match run, and then guarantee a shooter spot to anyone who volunteers for the job.

 

[NorCal Vu]

Re: Competition Registration Thoughts

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The only way you can satisfy everyone is to keep adding dates until everyone is happy, which is just silly. Nobody can do a weeks worth of competition just to make a few people satisfied.

At the Bash we sold out in 53 seconds, we use online registration because it is easy to track times and it allows Lisa to manage everyone as well as respond in a timely manner to tell them they have entered. The key here is getting your money in, failure to pay bumps you from the list so we can get someone off the waiting list.

Raising the fees is another way, and as a match director I am all about it, same work more money in my pocket. The issue with that is you reach a point where you hurt more people than you are helping. I try to keep it reasonable, and honestly with the size of our prize tables, I don't know anyone who hasn't left with all their money back in prizes. One way or another you money is returned in full.

The biggest issue we see, and to be perfectly blunt, it's people who sign up knowing full well they are not going to attend. Then they drop out with bs excuses at the last minute. A week later these same people will be crying for a refund even though it clearly states no refunds. Heck we had a guy drop out for a "medical emergency" at the last minute only to post how he shot a local match. This fucks the next guy, and you hate it because you know you have good people on the waiting list. it becomes a case of not being able to move someone off the waiting list because it is last minute.

Really, the biggest problems we see are exactly what is happening here, the few squeaky wheels that bitch and complain but then are the first to screw their fellow competitor over by taking a slot they can't use. They are usually our problem children during the match. Slowing things up, getting in the way.

For SH & RO, we feel the online registration is the best way to go, also we added a second day to both matches, because we can accommodate more shooters. It screws us during the CUP because that was originally 3 days and we had to gear it back to 2, but this way we know, we can pass 100 shooters through in 4 days , and it runs much better. 2 matches with 50 shooters each is better than one match with 65, at least in our opinion.

As far as manufacturers slots, we had to change that a bit to only give slots to those manufacturers who give more. I think our cut off is around $5k for a manufacturer slot. Had to be, because we take up a lot of space with sponsors wanting slots.

Finally, I will also say we have a black list, where if you screw up, you don't get to come back, I don't care how fast you send in your registration. And we pool our black list, it's not just one person's opinion but a combination of recommended names. Do we use it, damn straight...take a slot and drop out at the last minute, you may find yourself missing a year or two of SH Matches. There are plenty of other things may get you black listed as well. </div></div>

BAM, and shit gets done.

There you have it....that is how a lot of MDs do it. One of the biggest things that will get you on the magical list is safety. I have had a very well respected MD/RO call me with a name due to the shit that happened at his match. The competitor was talking about signing up for TBRC that year, luckily I got the needed intel and avoided the hassle of a safety hazzard on the line.

 

[Sumpter Steve]

Re: Competition Registration Thoughts

Registration is a bitch but I agree with Frank and Vu 100%. I value their knowledge as they have ran many more matches than myself. This thread has given me a few ideas that I will incorporate into next years registration process.

 

[KeithR41]

Re: Competition Registration Thoughts

The local qualifer idea has merit. However, it doesn't solve one problem and perhaps would even worsens it.

The closest montly tactical/long range style match to me, that I know of anyway, is in Sacramento, which is a minimum 6hrs from here.

If there is a need to attract new shooters, how many new guys are going to travel that far just to maybe get a spot in a major match? I would, but I can't think of anybody else that I shoot with or know that would.

I personally(not that my opinion matters for shit) don't have an issue with online registration. I was able to get into Steve's match and the TBRC by hovering over the keyboard just like everyone else.

41

 

[BOLTRIPPER]

Re: Competition Registration Thoughts

i am so smoking a great cigar......cuban actually.....sorta kinda rough.......ah but alas, boltripper sits on his hands......as per agreement........

 

[2156SMK]

Re: Competition Registration Thoughts

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KeithR41</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I personally(not that my opinion matters for shit) don't have an issue with online registration. I was able to get into Steve's match and the TBRC by hovering over the keyboard just like everyone else.</div></div>

My only problem with online registration is when they are on the weekend.
I shoot a LOT and I am usually on the road coming home from or going to a match when those registration deadlines hit.
I have used automated email sending services, but even those are not real timely when seconds matter!

During the week, especially in the evening would probably work good for more people than weekends if an email must be sent in at a specific time.