Searched but can’t find anything other than for sale ads. How do the Sinclair and RCBS do vs the NECO and 21st Century? Wanting one to check my reloading process.
Concentricity gauge
- Thread starter rickdavis81
- Start date
The Sinclair and others like it will perform about the same way as more expensive gauges.
But the more expensive are easier to use as well as many have more adjustments for taking measurements in different areas such as inside the neck.
You’ll likely find that runout doesn’t matter much. So if you just want it for occasional checking, the Sinclair and similar are fine.
If you’re gonna use it a lot and/or love nice equipment then the higher priced are the way to go.
But the more expensive are easier to use as well as many have more adjustments for taking measurements in different areas such as inside the neck.
You’ll likely find that runout doesn’t matter much. So if you just want it for occasional checking, the Sinclair and similar are fine.
If you’re gonna use it a lot and/or love nice equipment then the higher priced are the way to go.
Do you find a need to check runout? Are you experiencing issues with your reloads that you postulate is caused by poor runout?
If your ammo shoots good, I personally don't see the point. I've never measured runout of any of my reloads, don't see a need to.
If your ammo shoots good, I personally don't see the point. I've never measured runout of any of my reloads, don't see a need to.
If you do get one, make sure you get a model with the wheel. Often when you roll the brass with your fingers you can induce some variation, while the wheel is just a smooth rotation.
bullettipping.com
My personal favorite.
Accuracy One Concentricity Gauge
The Accuracy One Concentricity Gauge measures the internal and external neck runout of a cartridge case as well as seated bullet runout.
bullettipping.com
I sold my hornady one recently on ebay because I don't think there's a point.
I have a question about the Accuracy One linked above - since the case is being rotated on those metal wheels/bearings, how can you tell whether any of the "runout" measured at the bullet (as per the picture in the link) is due to it not being concentrically seated versus variation in the case wall/body? I see that as a major limitation of most of these devices.
Then there is this bit of horse manure in their marketing: "and can even measure your primer pocket runout."
I have a question about the Accuracy One linked above - since the case is being rotated on those metal wheels/bearings, how can you tell whether any of the "runout" measured at the bullet (as per the picture in the link) is due to it not being concentrically seated versus variation in the case wall/body? I see that as a major limitation of most of these devices.
Then there is this bit of horse manure in their marketing: "and can even measure your primer pocket runout."
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None of those things you guys posted measure concentricity. They measure runout.
You have targets for that, a gauge is not helpful.
Just for fun, check this page. It is the national benchrest shooters association (NBRSA) group size hall of fame. Notice the top guy, Tony Boyer with 176 points. Notice number 2, WAYNE CAMPBELL, 59 points. Boyer has just under three times as many points as the guy in second place. A long time ago when I shot BR, Tony had something like 100 or 120 points - more than everyone else on the list combined.
Many moons ago, someone showed up at a match trying to sell one of those runout gauges. It was a new thing so Boyer and a buddy took some loaded ammo over and let the guy measure it. He didn't know who Tony was. Based on their runout he said their ammo would not shoot very well and they should buy one of his gauges to improve their ammo. He didn't buy the gauge. This story comes from Tony's book.
Tony has more trigger time than almost everybody. He wins matches because he has an amazing skill of not shooting when he should not shoot. Most guns and ammo at a benchrest match could win the match, the same is not true of most of the shooters.
I use Wilson seaters for my precision ammo. In my opinion, I am not going to improve my group size by using a runout measurement tool. As evidence, I offer the story told by Tony Boyer.. . . especially if you're shooting at a barn door from 100 yds.
Prove your point. Take 5 rounds with zero runout, shoot a group. Take 5 rounds with larger runout - say 0.003 - shoot a group. Compare the groups. Show the targets. I submit that, with reasonable technique, runout is not the determining factor in group size.
It's the only thing holding you back from the 1/4 moa hall of fame....
We have tested up to .010-.012 and saw no difference on paper.
There’s plenty of documented testing out there showinf the same. And I don’t believe I’ve ever seen any data suggesting it does matter. Just anecdotal rules of thumb.
A chamber usually only has about .0005 clearance around the bullet diameter. So it can’t have but so much runout until it will hit the wall and be straightened out.
I use my Sinclair for every load i make. It is just another level of sorting to get the best of the best. It does sometimes find rounds that are broken. Usually i find the neck cracked but sometimes it isn’t obvious and have to use a jewelers loop. Or it just got seated sideways. Stuff happens
I too have done that experiment with my match rifle. This was a XTC 223. I sorted out 2 groups of 10. .003 and .007. I shot 1 group of 5 each runout and then went back and shot them again. There was no real difference in the same runout targets but the .007 were noticeably bigger by about 25%. The .007 groups were still X ring but that was on a 100 yard target of mr31 which is a 2 moa 10 ring.
So for me this is the last quality control check. I have had a couple of times the whole batch was messed up. Not only did it catch it rather than scratching my head, it helped me diagnose the issue that this batch of 68 had a pressure ring that other batches didn’t.
Confidence in your work is important on the firing line.
David
Since I don't see that, I'm curious. How do you seat bullets? Are you using factory bullets or custom bullets?
I use mostly Berger bullets but my 1000 yard is currently 115 DTAC. I use Redding competition seaters for all the calibers i load for. Lapua brass. I load in matched sets of brass of usually about 92 or so. I typically get about 40 in the .001 runout, 30 -40 in the .002 runout. The rest are 3’s with an occasional 4. For me is a match set of 72 foulers, sighters and shots for record plus a few backups.
David
David
Isnt that the theory of BR shooters and 0.002" jam into lands ? The jam technique "aligns" the bullet into the rifling, correcting any minor bullet runout ? So even the worst seated bullets would be corrected on chambering ?
Also, for fun, i took a concentricity gauge and a ogive seating depth gauge and tested 5 random loaded ammos from all but one competitor at a AU national PRS match. Like... 54 shooters ? I have the results and video'd them doing it. Interesting results of who has beat ammo and who placed top 10.
Jamming lands has quite a few advantages over jumping when looking for the best precision. However I don’t think it will matter much for runout. As when jumping, the bullet is still in an area that only has about .0005 clearance.
One of the bigger advantage of jamming bullets is consistent ignition and release. When you’re jumping, the initial resistance is from neck tension. Which even as much as we try, is going to have a decent amount of variance case to case.
The pressure has resistance from the neck, which lets go, and there’s another resistance with the lands. But, the initial release pressure from the neck is going to be different case to case.
When you jam, you’re already in the lands. Which are steel and much stronger than the neck. So, the pressure buildup virtually “skips” the initial release of the neck. As the lands will hold the bullet in place past the amount of pressure needed for neck release from each case.
That results in a much more consistent pressure curve. Which means more consistent velocity. It could be argued this matters more for things like long range BR and 1k F class. As short range BR is far less reliant on consistent velocity. And I won’t pretend that I yet understand the intricacies of short range BR.
This is why David Tubb says he doesn’t anneal if he’s going to jam the lands. As the neck tension variance from neck to neck doesn’t matter that much.
I had a 243 (factory rifle) that wouldn't shoot under 3/4" no matter what I loaded for it. So talking to my gunsmith he told me to bring some of my loaded anmo and fired cases over to look at.
He rolled my loaded ammo on his concentricity guage and the worst of the bunch was .003" out. The fired cases told the real story. The fired cases showed the chamber was not concentric to the bore.
We tried to clean it up with an ai reamer be it was too bad out of whack so the action was trued up and I've got to decide if I want another 6mm barrel or if I want to build a 7-08. I really want to try a 6bra but I've got no dies or brass and I've got a pile of 243 stuff already so...
Pic of bad chamber after we tried to clean it up. The guages have their place.
He rolled my loaded ammo on his concentricity guage and the worst of the bunch was .003" out. The fired cases told the real story. The fired cases showed the chamber was not concentric to the bore.
We tried to clean it up with an ai reamer be it was too bad out of whack so the action was trued up and I've got to decide if I want another 6mm barrel or if I want to build a 7-08. I really want to try a 6bra but I've got no dies or brass and I've got a pile of 243 stuff already so...
Pic of bad chamber after we tried to clean it up. The guages have their place.
Wooow. Thats bad. Years ago i had a customer piss and moan about my screwing up his 22-250 barrel. Long story short, his dies were the issue. 5000+ reloads on them and they were bending his brass like a banana. I used my dies to "fix" the brass he supplied. I did the whole thing on video, he still didnt believe me. Some customers are no-brain drop kicks.
You need to make a 7-08. Do it. 7-08ai is also fun if you wanna do that to.
You need to make a 7-08. Do it. 7-08ai is also fun if you wanna do that to.
I agree.
Runout gauges are better used finding problems such as the barrel above, or issues with your dies.
They are far less valuable predicting if your ammo is going to perform or not.
Runout gauges are better used finding problems such as the barrel above, or issues with your dies.
They are far less valuable predicting if your ammo is going to perform or not.
That's right on!
I see concentricity gauges are nothing more than a diagnostic tool for my reloading, where I simply try to keep within my own prescribed tolerances.
Interestingly to me, not long ago I found a solution to a concentricity issue I was having with a bushing sizing die in my Forster Co-Ax. I was getting .004 - 007 of TIR of neck runout (without the expander ball), which just isn't acceptable in my book. I tried everything to get better results, like using a little lube on the neck to reduce resistance; going slow to allow the die and bushing to line up; rotating the die to different positions in the press; etc., etc. Finally I tried something that seemed counter intuitive to me, I ran the cases into the die very fast and that resulted in TIR's of .0005 - .001 . . . . consistently. So, my concentricity gauge helped me modify my method for sizing cases with this sizing die. How much that might help with performance on paper, I have no idea. But, I feel certain that improvement in the neck's TIR can't hurt.
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A small group at my club were discussing this, among other aspects. One had a good point. How many reloaders do things, that in their own mind, make a difference regardless of proven data / results?
All of them.
How many of them had the means to test a theory, measure results and get a conclusion, that WASNT biased to what they wanted, vs what they found ?
@straightshooter1 showed this, found whats works, and modified his process to suit the true results.
