Advanced Marksmanship Confused...

[Cserv]

As the title states, I am. Here is what's doing it. I have a Win. M70 300WSM Super Shadow, that I haven't been able to get to shoot as well as my cheapie Rem. Model 710 .270. Both rifles are bone stock, with the exception of me putting a Nikon Prostaff 3-9x40 on the M70, lightening the trigger to around 3lbs, and floating the barrel off the stock. I'm shooting off sand bags front and rear, so I am pretty steady. I try and apply the basics, good cheek weld, sight picture, breathing, squeeze, and follow-through. But getting better than 1.5-2 MOA@100yds is eluding me with the Winny. The 710 however, I can consistently keep 1MOA@100. And the trigger pull on this thing is like pulling a tank compared to the M70, and a cheap Bushnell scope. Just like it came.
Shouldn't this M70 shoot better than this, could it be the stock, or is it just my driving? I can shoot them back to back, and it kind of frustrates me that this cheap old 710 puts it down and my M70 chokes.
Anybody, any suggestions or tips appreciated. Thanks in advance.
Eric

 

[kraigWY]

Re: Confused...

Not all guns like free floated barrels.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: Confused...

Sounds like an issue with recoil.

 

[Cserv]

Re: Confused...

Sterling,
Please elaborate. Possibly an issue w/ me absorbing and controlling the rifle during recoil? While shooting from the bags, should I utilize my sling to maybe lock down the front of the rifle? Normally, my left hand is on the rear bag, and the rifle recoils freely. Most of the time from the bags I don't lose sight of the target, from my bi-pod however is a diffrent story. From the bi-pod, about half of my shots, the recoil bounces up and left. I realize this is due to me not "driving the reifle" properly. I don't really have these issues with the .270, but the 300 is another story. Thank you for any tips on this issue.
Eric

 

[Cserv]

Re: Confused...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kraigWY</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Not all guns like free floated barrels.</div></div>
Could it be this caliber and the pencil thin barrel? Or just a finicky gun? Should I try shimming the barrel channel to get contact w/ the barrel again? Thanks,
Eric

 

[Cserv]

Re: Confused...

OK. so have been doing ALOT more reading, and think I may have answered my own ?'s with some of the info you gents have posted in other topics.(i.e. bi-pod hop) Will get more ammo this week and put it practical use this weekend. Was just frustrated that I don't have this issue w/ the .270. I guess I may be having these issues due to the increased recoil impulse from the 300WSM. Am going to try using the sling or gripping the fore stock to help "control" the recoil pulse. Thanks for all the great info that is available, and any additional comments.
Eric

 

[Seth8541]

Re: Confused...

My dads been having the same issue with his Win 70 SuperGrade 300wm. He floated his barrel and bedded it and still wont get better that 1.25-1.50 MOA @ 100 yds. Yet he can grab his Rem 700 BDL .243 and shoot .3 MOA groups @ 100 yds all day long.

Could be ammo, gun, or YOU.
Before you assume that it is the equipment, you need to be honest with yourself. Ive done the same thing, shot like crap and assume that its the load, and then turned out it WAS me. Im not trying to disrespect you, 1 MOA isnt bad, but you can probably shoot alot better. When your shooting your groups, is your NPA changing from shot to shot? This will make your groups open up guite a bit. If it is the change in recoil between rifle calibers, try this

If your shooting prone:

Orient your gun to the target

Stand directly behind your gun and assume a "push up" position behind it.

The reason for this is to be perfectly inline with the rifle, so that the recoil of the rifle travels in a straight line from the bore, through the shoulder, through your hip, and straight down your leg. This action coupled with a strong grip of the rifle with a slight pull into the shoulder should enable the rifle to recoil straight up and down and back to the target. Make sure that when your shooting off your bipods, that you use your toes to push forward slightly against the bipods, this will reduce the amount of jump off the ground by your bipods.

If not in a straight line your recoil will always go in the path of least resistance. Which in most cases is NOT back to your target.Hope this helps a bit.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: Confused...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Cserv</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Sterling,
Please elaborate. Possibly an issue w/ me absorbing and controlling the rifle during recoil? While shooting from the bags, should I utilize my sling to maybe lock down the front of the rifle? Normally, my left hand is on the rear bag, and the rifle recoils freely. Most of the time from the bags I don't lose sight of the target, from my bi-pod however is a diffrent story. From the bi-pod, about half of my shots, the recoil bounces up and left. I realize this is due to me not "driving the reifle" properly. I don't really have these issues with the .270, but the 300 is another story. Thank you for any tips on this issue.
Eric
</div></div>

The angle/arc created going from bore at rest to bore at bullet exit is less consistent with the heavier recoiling .300.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: Confused...

Getting a sequence of rounds to go to the same place is not the same as hunting. Hunters need to stop thinking in terms of groups, and start thinking in terms of individual hits. Nobody shoots groups at deer, etc.

Take a cold gun, shoot it. Adjust sights to POI. Take the same gun, cold again, try again. Refine sights. Do this until POI/POA are identical.

Now shoot the gun five times, at anything, and then take another shot at your 'perfect hit' target. Two more. See where they go. Make a mental note.

Now you know your gun will hit what you aim at, and what it will do if you have to heat it up.

Clean it. Take one more shot at that 'perfect hit' target. Now you know where your cold/clean shot goes.

You're done.

Greg

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: Confused...

The OP was just wonderin' Greg.

 

[ubet]

Re: Confused...

OP, lots of great advice.

Just a quick add though, IF the problem is NOT YOU; I have a 300wsm savage 12, it would shoot tighter at 300 than it would at 100 (moa plus @ 100, .5m0a), the only thing I could figure out was that the bullet was not stabalizing until >100. Was using 185berger vld, n560, br2 .003 in the lands.

 

[Cserv]

Re: Confused...

Getting a sequence of rounds to go to the same place is not the same as hunting. Hunters need to stop thinking in terms of groups, and start thinking in terms of individual hits. Nobody shoots groups at deer, etc.

Greg,
I do understand that I am not shooting groups at game animals. But I would like some repeatable accuracy from my rifle. I understand that having a pencil barrel and shooting a magnum cartridge is going to heat my barrel and cause some shift in my POI. Am just trying to figure out why this rifle isn't shooting as well as my "cheaper" rifle, at 100yds, so I can stretch it out for some of the available shots in my hunting AO.
I do appreciate the tips for zeroing my "hunting" rifle, am just trying to get more out of it. Thanks,
Eric

 

[Cserv]

Re: Confused...

The angle/arc created going from bore at rest to bore at bullet exit is less consistent with the heavier recoiling .300. [/quote]


Sterling,
Was something I was thinking, and after some reading, am going to try and manage the recoil of the 300 differently to see if it is effective. Thanks again,
Eric

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: Confused...

You need to maintain a steady position until recoil has subsided. With a heavy recoiling, light rifle, getting all your bullets to go where aimed is a challenge.

 

[j-huskey]

Re: Confused...

The 300WSM Super Shadows were in the last production guns before Winchester went under, and they put out some real crap.

The WSSM's were the worst of the lot.

My 300WSM Super Shadow wears a new custom barrel, the old one held 3" at best. It was bore scoped and proven a piece of shit.

Every pencil barrel SS that comes to the range for zeroing has heat issues past three rounds. All of those I have handled are shit.
Repeat, the one I have now wears a custom barrel because the original barrel was a piece of shit.

I'd maybe find a gunsmith with a borescope and clean the barrel to the metal and let the scope tell the story. If your barrel looks like mine...

 

[Cserv]

Re: Confused...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jhuskey</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The 300WSM Super Shadows were in the last production guns before Winchester went under, and they put out some real crap.

The WSSM's were the worst of the lot.

My 300WSM Super Shadow wears a new custom barrel, the old one held 3" at best. It was bore scoped and proven a piece of shit.

Every pencil barrel SS that comes to the range for zeroing has heat issues past three rounds. All of those I have handled are shit.
Repeat, the one I have now wears a custom barrel because the original barrel was a piece of shit.

I'd maybe find a gunsmith with a borescope and clean the barrel to the metal and let the scope tell the story. If your barrel looks like mine... </div></div>

jhuskey,
Thanks for a heads up from someone else who owned and has had issue with the same make/model of rifle. definately worth looking into to, but I also don't discount my need to work on my shooting. Even though I don't have the same issues w/ my other rifles(.270 Rem.710, .223 Mini-14, or my old .22).
Thanks,
Eric

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: Confused...

The Winchester short and super short magnums were, in my opinion, examples of what happens when marketing folks, who need to survey it all before they can move at all, are running things. Nevertheless, introducing new calibers to support sales is nothing new, it's just that Winchester barrels have never, again in my opinion, been very good; and, the new calibers have just added injury to insult. I've seen bores off axis, a barrel marked .308 Win. which was actually bored for .243 Win., a .223 SSWM bore that ripped the jackets off bullets, with said bullets having a maximum effective range of about 10 feet, and countless Winchester barrels that would walk bullets further than I can walk my dog.

I hope FN can make it work but I have my doubts about it for a multitude of reasons. Just looking at a few late receivers suggests they still have no concern for quality--delineation is absent, with some receivers looking like they were used as all day suckers by King Kong. Reminds me of when AMF owned Harley-Davidson, but that's another story.

I always qualify my statement about the bullet always going in the direction the barrel is pointed with "unless the gun is broken"; and, for sure, there are plenty of late model Olin, as well as U.S. Repeating Arms M70's out there that indeed support the notion "that gun don't shoot".

Oh, one more thing, the one WSM, that never was, that could perhaps have made some sense would have been one necked for a .264 diameter bullet. But, who would expect their marketing folks to know that.