Considerations on a new build

[Scarface26]

Gents,

Thanks in advance for your replies. Currently shooting a RRA 3 gun model that I picked up in 2014. Great, but heavy rifle. It holds a minute and a half out to 700 with Frontier 75 gr and Freedom munitions 77gr. Currently running a leupold Mk4 LRT in 3.5 to 10 with a TS 32 MOA reticle. Sweet scope. I am considering going to a 16" bbl to get one more step away from the "musket" AR.

Assuming that I am willing to invest the time and training at distance, will a high quality 16" barrel still get me to 7=800 ish? Reliably?

If I stick with the 18" option should I go with a rifle gas, and then what about buffer weights?

I'm not a big fan of adjustable anything so if I can save weight should I go with a fixed stock ala mag pul? Maneuvaerabiity in a vehicle is not a concern, unless I can get everything good that comes from a collapsible stock with no downsides re: reliability.

Front sight gas block or adjustable gas block? I usually run the cheap ammo 300 yards and under and save the good stuff for 500 and up.

Finally, Something like a criterion CORE chome lined is where I'm going with the barrel 7 or 7.7 twist 223 "wylde."

Considering replacement of the leupold with a bushnell 3-12.

Obviously, I don't know what I don't know. Have fun and God bless America.

 

[roostercogburn98]

Spend money on the best barrel and have the bolt head spaced to it if you possibly can. If possible and feasible, buy a blank and have someone make the barrel you want. Unless the barrel you want is a production run. I ended up with a bartlein 1:7:7 twist that started life as a heavy service contour blank. It was cut down to 18 inches, .750 gas, and 5/8-24 threads. White oak competition barrel extension and a seekins bolt head spaced to it and a Superlative arms adjustable GB. I went with a wylde chamber because a good buddy who builds custom guns said that is all they use in their 223 chambered guns.

 

[Hobo Hilton]

Are you reloading ?

 

[BCP]

How "heavy" is your rock river? The 3gun ones I see in pics don't look like heavy rifles.

I like those older leupold scopes, if you decide to sell I'd be interested in it.

 

[Scarface26]

@roostercogburn98, I'm tracking with you on the barrel and bolt combo. I'm a big believer in a complete system and am not opposed to a complete rifle, but had hoped to be able to get to the same destination with a few high quality components chosen to work well together. That said, I would like to buy the bbl, bolt, and bcg from the same manufacturer if possible. I am willing to budget 7-800 for this piece.

@Hobo Hilton, Yes I reload, but sadly not for 223 due to the shortage of small rifle primers. I had intended to get into the dillon 550 world about a year ago, since I currently load everything, even revolver, on a single stage, but, you know how that goes.

@BCP, my rock river weighs 10 lbs 4 ounces with a half a magazine. You can call me Nancy but I was hoping to keep this rifle under 8 1/2 - 9 pounds with only a streamlight on the end of it - a light one. Realistic? I think so, certainly with a 16" barrel.

The question for me is "is 700 -800 yards doable with a 16" barrel?" Because it IS for me with the 18" barrel I have on there right now, which is RR factory offering. With something a little more "custom" with the right ammo I was hoping 16 would get me there.

Paging @TonyTheTiger to chyme in on gas lengths.

I don't plan on running this suppressed.

Thanks for your patience and God bless America

 

[Scarface26]

How "heavy" is your rock river? The 3gun ones I see in pics don't look like heavy rifles.

I like those older leupold scopes, if you decide to sell I'd be interested in it.

Appreciate the offer on the scope. It's the first scope I bought back in 2007. Back then it had mil dots and moa turrets. Now it has the TS32 moa reticle (cool, but busy) and moa turrets. I'm sentimental. I can't shake the idea that it belongs on a R700 in .308.

 

[TonyTheTiger]

You can call me Nancy but I was hoping to keep this rifle under 8 1/2 - 9 pounds with only a streamlight on the end of it - a light one. Realistic? I think so, certainly with a 16" barrel.

The question for me is "is 700 -800 yards doable with a 16" barrel?" Because it IS for me with the 18" barrel I have on there right now, which is RR factory offering. With something a little more "custom" with the right ammo I was hoping 16 would get me there.

Paging @TonyTheTiger to chyme in on gas lengths.

I don't plan on running this suppressed.

Thanks for your patience and God bless America

Rifle weight will be drastically more effected by barrel contour than 2" of length either way. A pencil 18" will be way lighter than an hbar 16".

700-800 yards? Depends on what you're shooting at I guess. I've been very successful with a 13.7" at 800 on 2 moa targets but if I wanted to shoot at smaller stuff I'd want more velocity to buy me room for error. Either way, you'll see next to zero difference in capability by losing 2" of barrel. Your optic and ammo choice will have way more effect than a small barrel length difference.

I would never even consider an 18" barrel with shorter than rifle gas. If you go 16" I would highly recommend an intermediate gas system. It's noticeably better than mid length without the potential for being finicky that a 16" rifle gas barrel has. Buffer weight will depend on your goals, for utmost precision I typically try to go as heavy as will run. For speed I use a piece of plastic that weighs like .3 of an ounce.

 

[SalomonQST99]

JP makes a nice buffer. Buffer

 

[roostercogburn98]

My gun weighs 11.2 pounds with a Lancer 10 round mag full up on 77g IMI Razor Core. I didn’t put the can on, but that would add 25 ounces plus mount.

 

[BCP]

I really doubt my 16" rifle is over 7lbs without the scope etc. The barrel is .740" thick for most of the length and it has KAC keymod rail and a magpul carbine stock.

 

[TonyTheTiger]

I really doubt my 16" rifle is over 7lbs without the scope etc. The barrel is .740" thick for most of the length and it has KAC keymod rail and a magpul carbine stock.

I'll take that bet.

 

[BCP]

I'll take that bet.

Ha! Well the bathroom scale says 7 and it reads just under 10 for 1000 69gr bullets so it's gotta be close. Barrel is 1.8lbs handguards are 14oz.

What are we wagering? I'll go to sportsmans and buy a trigger scale.

 

[TonyTheTiger]

Ha! Well the bathroom scale says 7 and it reads just under 10 for 1000 69gr bullets so it's gotta be close. Barrel is 1.8lbs handguards are 14oz.

What are we wagering? I'll go to sportsmans and buy a trigger scale.

Dick pics obviously! The only currency not affected by inflation.

 

[Scarface26]

Always hilarious. That is until your retinas get assaulted!!

I concur with the advice about the contour making more difference wrt weight than 2". I'm not looking for a heavy barrel or a pencil barrel. IF I stick with 18" then something along the hybrid or hanson profiles - around 2#. I'm not even opposed to a government profile, but all the cuts and steps, etc. seem to be counter productive. I'll keep my eyes peeled and if anyone has suggestions, let's hear them. Barrels are a hot commodity right now.

Thanks gents.

 

[TonyTheTiger]

If you were buying off the shelf and sticking with a lighter 18" I'd look at this Rainier:

Rainier Arms Match .223 Wylde Lightweight Barrel

Rainier Arms Match .223 Wylde Lightweight Barrel Many have asked us to build a barrel with the same workmanship as our UltraMatch barrels while keeping it more affordable. We are able to reach our goal by sourcing a very high end barrel blank at an afford

www.rainierarms.com

The best 16" barrel I've ever had was this one:

STRETCH 16 Legend AR15 Barrel (Graphite Black)

The fluted elite red STRETCH 16 Precision AR15 Barrel is extremely accurate and soft shooting due to its hand lapped bore and intermediate or stretched gas system.

www.stretchprecision.com

That thing always shot 3/4 moa or slightly better, which is as good as I can shoot with an LPVO, I'm sure it had more to give with a higher mag scope. I've got the same barrel in a 15" that hammers just as well.

 

[BCP]

Dick pics obviously! The only currency not affected by inflation.

OK well...

First I tested the scale using a bag of 1000 nosler 69s (6900 grains vs 7000 grains per pound)

Which weighed a hair over 10 according to my little fishing scale (I also tried a 5lb weight, again it's accurate):

And the moment of truth (rifle without scope and accessories):

Soooo how about tonight around 8pm eastern for those nudes? Bear Pit OK? I'll start the thread I promise.

Oh this is the rifle, minus the scope and bipod of course:

 

[TonyTheTiger]

OK well...

First I tested the scale using a bag of 1000 nosler 69s (6900 grains vs 7000 grains per pound)

Which weighed a hair over 10 according to my little fishing scale (I also tried a 5lb weight, again it's accurate):

And the moment of truth (rifle without scope and accessories):

Soooo how about tonight around 8pm eastern for those nudes? Bear Pit OK? I'll start the thread I promise.

Oh this is the rifle, minus the scope and bipod of course:

Well son of a gun. That rifle is lighter than it looks! It looks like my lack of reading comprehension caused me to make a losing bet, I thought I read 7lbs WITH scope, and just realized I was wrong. Oh well.
I thought the loser was the one that would be cursed by receiving unsolicited dick pics from the winner though? I know if I won a bet and the prize was seeing someone else's dick I'd be pissed.

 

[SalomonQST99]

Well son of a gun. That rifle is lighter than it looks! It looks like my lack of reading comprehension caused me to make a losing bet, I thought I read 7lbs WITH scope, and just realized I was wrong. Oh well.
I thought the loser was the one that would be cursed by receiving unsolicited dick pics from the winner though? I know if I won a bet and the prize was seeing someone else's dick I'd be pissed.

Unsolicited dick pic.

 

[Scarface26]

OK,

Starting to pick up steam.

Shopping Cart

Rainier Arms - Pursue Your Passion | AR-15 Parts & Accessories | Uppers, Barrels, Lowers, Grips & Stocks

www.rainierarms.com

Do I need to keep shopping for a different BCG? Between the two is Rubber City better than Rise?

What about a gas block? Ranier has the Superlative Arms - which everyone on here raves about, and I could be convinced to go that way as long as after I get the adjustment finalized, that there won't be any "non-operator induced adjustments." I spent 20 years in Aviation and I like simple, powerful, and reliable.

Thanks gents.

The picture thing still has me rocking back and forth thinking about the crying game.

 

[HogsLife]

Gents,

Thanks in advance for your replies. Currently shooting a RRA 3 gun model that I picked up in 2014. Great, but heavy rifle. It holds a minute and a half out to 700 with Frontier 75 gr and Freedom munitions 77gr. Currently running a leupold Mk4 LRT in 3.5 to 10 with a TS 32 MOA reticle. Sweet scope. I am considering going to a 16" bbl to get one more step away from the "musket" AR.

Assuming that I am willing to invest the time and training at distance, will a high quality 16" barrel still get me to 7=800 ish? Reliably?

If I stick with the 18" option should I go with a rifle gas, and then what about buffer weights?

I'm not a big fan of adjustable anything so if I can save weight should I go with a fixed stock ala mag pul? Maneuvaerabiity in a vehicle is not a concern, unless I can get everything good that comes from a collapsible stock with no downsides re: reliability.

Front sight gas block or adjustable gas block? I usually run the cheap ammo 300 yards and under and save the good stuff for 500 and up.

Finally, Something like a criterion CORE chome lined is where I'm going with the barrel 7 or 7.7 twist 223 "wylde."

Considering replacement of the leupold with a bushnell 3-12.

Obviously, I don't know what I don't know. Have fun and God bless America.

16” 1:7.7 Douglas in a 223 Wylde Mid Length Gas should do your solid to 600. Rounds on target will always depend on you more than It willl the barrel. Mk12 Holland’s that setup for awhile.


I don’t see a need for adjustable GB on a a small frame but I could be wrong.

I’d give Compass Lake a call and have them set you up

Edit: I’d be looking at a true LPVO a Razor 1-10 with an offbeat RMR would be perfect for running and gunning

 

[TonyTheTiger]

Do I need to keep shopping for a different BCG? Between the two is Rubber City better than Rise?

What about a gas block? Ranier has the Superlative Arms - which everyone on here raves about, and I could be convinced to go that way as long as after I get the adjustment finalized, that there won't be any "non-operator induced adjustments." I spent 20 years in Aviation and I like simple, powerful, and reliable.

RCA is absolutely better than Rise. All my Rise parts have had cool designs and fancy machining, and have always fallen short on fitment and QC. It's possible someone reputable makes the Rise BCG's and they're fine but I wouldn't chance it.

If you plan on using an adjustable gas block as a set it and forget it part just get any of the $60ish AGB's like the Seekins and call it a day.

 

[Scarface26]

RCA is absolutely better than Rise. All my Rise parts have had cool designs and fancy machining, and have always fallen short on fitment and QC. It's possible someone reputable makes the Rise BCG's and they're fine but I wouldn't chance it.

If you plan on using an adjustable gas block as a set it and forget it part just get any of the $60ish AGB's like the Seekins and call it a day.

Is adjustable gas even required? Regarding recoil reduction, quick follow ups, etc. - with a 223 - I'm not good enough to notice the difference. My preference is to go with the A2 front sight non-adjustable gas block and have rainier install it. I'm gonna call them tomorrow and chat them up about some of the other details. FWIW, the 20" ultra match was 3 ounces heavier than the lightweight barrel you recommended - which I almost went with - and I figured with the reputation of their ultra match and the things guys on here have said about those barrels, coupled with my desire to take a longer distance poke with this particular rifle, I thought it might not be a bad idea. 7.5 twist, rifle gas, cool flutes - and if it looks too goofy at 20" then I'll send it back and have them chop some off.

@TonyTheTiger , thank you for the effort you've put in to helping a total stranger put together a better shooting rifle. Gents like you make this forum a gold mine.

S/F

 

[HogsLife]

Is adjustable gas even required? Regarding recoil reduction, quick follow ups, etc. - with a 223 - I'm not good enough to notice the difference. My preference is to go with the A2 front sight non-adjustable gas block and have rainier install it. I'm gonna call them tomorrow and chat them up about some of the other details. FWIW, the 20" ultra match was 3 ounces heavier than the lightweight barrel you recommended - which I almost went with - and I figured with the reputation of their ultra match and the things guys on here have said about those barrels, coupled with my desire to take a longer distance poke with this particular rifle, I thought it might not be a bad idea. 7.5 twist, rifle gas, cool flutes - and if it looks too goofy at 20" then I'll send it back and have them chop some off.

@TonyTheTiger , thank you for the effort you've put in to helping a total stranger put together a better shooting rifle. Gents like you make this forum a gold mine.

S/F

I don’t think an adjustable GB is needed on a small frame. Never seen the need for it myself. LF ? Most Definetly.

figure you’re gonna lose about 25fps-ish per 1” of barre length. So going from a 20 to an 18 you’re only looking at 50 FPS or So. Thats pretty negligible. You’re not hon a lose accuracy, you’ll just give up a litte of wind drift and drop is all’

 

[TonyTheTiger]

Is adjustable gas even required? Regarding recoil reduction, quick follow ups, etc. - with a 223 - I'm not good enough to notice the difference. My preference is to go with the A2 front sight non-adjustable gas block and have rainier install it. I'm gonna call them tomorrow and chat them up about some of the other details. FWIW, the 20" ultra match was 3 ounces heavier than the lightweight barrel you recommended - which I almost went with - and I figured with the reputation of their ultra match and the things guys on here have said about those barrels, coupled with my desire to take a longer distance poke with this particular rifle, I thought it might not be a bad idea. 7.5 twist, rifle gas, cool flutes - and if it looks too goofy at 20" then I'll send it back and have them chop some off.

Required? Probably not. It's up to you. Your car probably gets you to work just fine with the OE spec tires, and if that's what you want then great. But if you mostly drive it on sunny weekends on your favorite curvy mountain roads why wouldn't you buy some stickier tires? The far end of this analogy is your car is meant for track fun, in which case you are absolutely giving up real measurable performance with the otherwise suitable factory tires. I hope that analogy properly translates into adjustable gas the way it does in my head.

With the fluted Ultramatch barrels, just be aware that depending on where the flutes are it may look really weird to cut the barrel down later.

And no problem on telling you what I know. Many here disagree with me, but all I'm telling you is what I've experienced after spending way too much money experimenting with rifle tuning.

 

[HogsLife]

OP, @TonyTheTiger knows a lot more about this type of setup than I do. He’s the one you wanna listen too.

 

[BCP]

Is adjustable gas even required? Regarding recoil reduction, quick follow ups, etc. - with a 223 - I'm not good enough to notice the difference. My preference is to go with the A2 front sight non-adjustable gas block and have rainier install it. I'm gonna call them tomorrow and chat them up about some of the other details. FWIW, the 20" ultra match was 3 ounces heavier than the lightweight barrel you recommended - which I almost went with - and I figured with the reputation of their ultra match and the things guys on here have said about those barrels, coupled with my desire to take a longer distance poke with this particular rifle, I thought it might not be a bad idea. 7.5 twist, rifle gas, cool flutes - and if it looks too goofy at 20" then I'll send it back and have them chop some off.

@TonyTheTiger , thank you for the effort you've put in to helping a total stranger put together a better shooting rifle. Gents like you make this forum a gold mine.

S/F

Rainier ultramatch are good barrels, the one I had was from a shilen blank.

A2 fixed sight? I would go a regular lowpro gasblock since you are using a scope.

If you have it cut down then you'll need to open up the gas port a little more.

IMHO you don't need an adjustable gas block unless you want to try lighter carriers and buffers.

 

[Scarface26]

Rainier ultramatch are good barrels, the one I had was from a shilen blank.

A2 fixed sight? I would go a regular lowpro gasblock since you are using a scope.

If you have it cut down then you'll need to open up the gas port a little more.

IMHO you don't need an adjustable gas block unless you want to try lighter carriers and buffers.

Thanks for the advice. Concur, I'm looking to stay away from some of the more gucci things like low mass bolt carrier groups and lightweight buffers. Right now there's a standard mass bcg on order and a rifle weight buffer and spring. I figure with the rifle length everything and the 20" barrel (why have I considered it long in the AR world and short in the bolt world?) coupled with the fact that it's a 223, it ought to be a soft shooter and with the praise these barrels have received, a good shooter.

 

[SalomonQST99]

Is adjustable gas even required? Regarding recoil reduction, quick follow ups, etc. - with a 223 - I'm not good enough to notice the difference. My preference is to go with the A2 front sight non-adjustable gas block and have rainier install it. I'm gonna call them tomorrow and chat them up about some of the other details. FWIW, the 20" ultra match was 3 ounces heavier than the lightweight barrel you recommended - which I almost went with - and I figured with the reputation of their ultra match and the things guys on here have said about those barrels, coupled with my desire to take a longer distance poke with this particular rifle, I thought it might not be a bad idea. 7.5 twist, rifle gas, cool flutes - and if it looks too goofy at 20" then I'll send it back and have them chop some off.

@TonyTheTiger , thank you for the effort you've put in to helping a total stranger put together a better shooting rifle. Gents like you make this forum a gold mine.

S/F

AGBs are not required. If you know the recipe for your barrel, gas system, and buffer, you can go without it. But when it comes time to an adjustment, then you're probably going to be swapping parts in and out to find the right buffer type. Or you can just turn a screw.