Controlled round feed

[1911JMB]

I am a hunter and a very long time ago reloaded to shoot woodchucks before range finders and ballistic calculators. I am just starting to get back into trying some long range shooting. Does anyone build a long rang rifle with controlled round feed? I know the Remington 700 action was the standard for custom guns but if you have spent time running model 70 and Mauser 98 actions push feeds just simply don't fell right.

Maybe there is a reason push feed bolts are better to suited to the extreme long rang game? Hoping you folks can educate me

 

[Steel head]

American rifle company and Zermatt

 

[Tokay444]

Defiance.
LAW.
Kimber.
Montana Rifle Company.
Fierce.
Sako.
FN.
Savage.

 

[b6graham]

i prefer CRF.

Zermatt all the way

 

[King_beardsly]

Can’t really go wrong with CRF, especially with the great offerings from zermatt.

 

[1911JMB]

That is what I always thought but there certainly seems to be a limited amount of them. I assume push feed is less expensive to manufacture but you rely on a spring for ejection. It seems like an added point of failure and I really don't see that CRF should be much more expensive

 

[King_beardsly]

It’s definitely easier to manufacture a push feed since your tolerances can be off and it still works well enough. I only have experience with the bighorn/zermatt stuff and it’s worked pretty flawlessly but I could see if a manufacturer didn’t do their homework or get the tolerances right it could be pretty messy

 

[SnowMan]

Probably just depends on what you are doing and personal preference. I prefer push feed for the type of shooting I do. Most of the time, I just feed one round at a time, so CRF is really not needed. Once you get deep enough into this stuff, trying to save a few bucks seems futile.

 

[kthomas]

I second ARC and Zermatt.

I have an ARC Mausingfield and love it. While I don't consider it a necessity, CRF certainly has some nice benefits to it.

 

[hereinaz]

I run only ARC Nucleus now.

Also, the big list includes Savage... their stuff is pretty much all push feed.

 

[Tokay444]

I run only ARC Nucleus now.

Also, the big list includes Savage... their stuff is pretty much all push feed.

Savage Arms Bolt Head Short Action Savage 10 to 16 Left Hand

This is a factory replacement stripped bolt head without the extractor or ejector assembly. It is built to the same specifications and made of the same...

www.midwayusa.com

 

[SmartDonkey]

I think that most of those actions are a "somewhat controlled round feed" with a more robust extractor. Nothing wrong with that- it gives you the option to single feed- and if the case doesn't get presented to the bolt right you are still good to go-- but what qualifies as CRF is getting watered down.

 

[BadAccountant]

MRC, Winchester, Bighorn, or if you really want a project, get a Mauser.

 

[Tokay444]

- but what qualifies as CRF is getting watered down.

How so?

 

[SmartDonkey]

Just my opinion..... But I have some older CRF rifles and they really grip that cartridge. Obviously they have to let go of the case for ejection- but it takes substantially more force than my newer CRF rifles (nuke and origin). If I pull the bolts out and snap a cartridge in the bolt face- then just a little tap and it will fall right out.

Also, as I mentioned- you can single feed them. My older CRF actions have to be fed from the magazine (the case has to come up into the bolt face from the bottom and be "controlled) or they will not grab the case rim. The new ones that I have seen will work as a push feed. I'm not saying that is a bad thing- I find it handy. My favorite action right now is a push feed so I don't see that as a problem. But I also don't see them as true controlled round feed, more of a hybrid.

 

[hereinaz]

Just my opinion..... But I have some older CRF rifles and they really grip that cartridge. Obviously they have to let go of the case for ejection- but it takes substantially more force than my newer CRF rifles (nuke and origin). If I pull the bolts out and snap a cartridge in the bolt face- then just a little tap and it will fall right out.

Also, as I mentioned- you can single feed them. My older CRF actions have to be fed from the magazine (the case has to come up into the bolt face from the bottom and be "controlled) or they will not grab the case rim. The new ones that I have seen will work as a push feed. I'm not saying that is a bad thing- I find it handy. My favorite action right now is a push feed so I don't see that as a problem. But I also don't see them as true controlled round feed, more of a hybrid.

What are your older control round feed actions?

 

[hereinaz]

Savage Arms Bolt Head Short Action Savage 10 to 16 Left Hand

This is a factory replacement stripped bolt head without the extractor or ejector assembly. It is built to the same specifications and made of the same...

www.midwayusa.com

Yeah, that's the one model. Savage made their WSM in control round feed before 2009. Other than that, all Savage are push feed as far as I recall. Since 2009 all Savage rifles are push feed.

 

[1911JMB]

You can single feed mausers and model 70 obviously the round isn't under control when you do. The way the full length extractor rides in the bolt chase makes it the smoothest and slickest bolt action I have felt. I haven't yet seen a push feed that can match it. My Cooper is nice but it isn't even close

 

[SmartDonkey]

Well, maybe I'm the one wrong here.... But I have 2 older CRF and neither of them will chamber push feed... so I was just going with that's how they all were. The one is a old Ruger dangerous game (or safari) and the other is a build on a 98 clone... and I know that many of the Rugers being produced today wont single feed.

In either case- (and I know this depends on setup- cartridge- how you run the bolt etc) my nuke does not gain control of the case (in the approx 75% of the time that it does) until the cartridge is so far into the chamber that it is a moot point. At that point crf is no advantage over push. But it still feeds reliably however they are getting in there- so not a issue.

 

[b6graham]

Well, maybe I'm the one wrong here.... But I have 2 older CRF and neither of them will chamber push feed... so I was just going with that's how they all were. The one is a old Ruger dangerous game (or safari) and the other is a build on a 98 clone... and I know that many of the Rugers being produced today wont single feed.

In either case- (and I know this depends on setup- cartridge- how you run the bolt etc) my nuke does not gain control of the case (in the approx 75% of the time that it does) until the cartridge is so far into the chamber that it is a moot point. At that point crf is no advantage over push. But it still feeds reliably however they are getting in there- so not a issue.

some Mausingfield extractors cannot be single fed without a trimming

that is not my preference...ever

 

[MarinePMI]

The inability to single fed in some CRF actions is more of an issue from mass production. CZ's had the same issue; the radius on the face of the extractor wasn't cut large enough to allow the case head to push the extractor aside, so the case head could snap onto the bolt face. Most Pre'64 Winchesters allowed this. Some had to be tweaked. It is a fitment issue, not a constraint of the design.

Honestly, I haven't tried with an Origin...but I will.

 

[MarinePMI]

Okay, just checked. An Origin will snap over the rim if single fed, but you have to get the case partially in the chamber with the Valkyrie case, since it's too skinny to use the feed ramp (it'll butt up against the breech face). But if the tip of the bullet is in the chamber, the CRF exteactor will slip over the case head.


BTW, the beauty of CRF isn't feeding, it's extraction. It's just stronger since there's physically no way for the extractor to come off the case rim until the case has been extracted (or the rim has been ripped off). The mechanical ejector is important, because with shorter cases, the case will stay on the bolt face until it hits the mechanical ejector blade, which means the case is always presented to the ejection port when it is pushed off the bolt face. Unlike a push feed, spring loaded ejector, where a short case can come off the bolt face, and foul the action...sometimes when a second round is needed to keep the shooter from being eaten by something pissed off.

 

[Northernjets]

Okay, just checked. An Origin will snap over the rim if single fed, but you have to get the case partially in the chamber with the Valkyrie case, since it's too skinny to use the feed ramp (it'll butt up against the breech face). But if the tip of the bullet is in the chamber, the CRF exteactor will slip over the case head.


BTW, the beauty of CRF isn't feeding, it's extraction. It's just stronger since there's physically no way for the extractor to come off the case rim until the case has been extracted (or the rim has been ripped off). The mechanical ejector is important, because with shorter cases, the case will stay on the bolt face until it hits the mechanical ejector blade, which means the case is always presented to the ejection port when it is pushed off the bolt face. Unlike a push feed, spring loaded ejector, where a short case can come off the bolt face, and foul the action...sometimes when a second round is needed to keep the shooter from being eaten by something pissed off.

Another small bonus is being able to control how hard that brass goes flying. Digging for brass in 4ft of snow sucks and the mechanical ejector solves this quality of life problem for us northern shooters.

 

[CowboyBart]

All that "snapping" over will eventually weaken and break the extractor. It may take 5500 rds, but it will eventually happen. If you want to single feed a CRF, pull the bolt out, them slip a round under the extractor, then put the bolt back in the gun. Yup, it's a lot of work, but why single feed??

 

[celltech]

CRF also saves your good Lapua brass from getting nicked by the receiver as the spring loaded ejector constantly tries to throw it..

 

[stello1001]

If you want to go custom, then all the options people are recommending here are good. If you want to stay with a factory or commercially produced rifle, I would go win70 or FN SPR. They are great actions and mine is super smooth. Bolt lift also seems incredibly light. And yes, people do build range guns or competition guns out of them.

 

[kthomas]

My Mausingfield wouldn't single feed with AICS mags, but does it perfectly with MDT mags. I haven't spent any time to try and figure out why, but I doubt it would be difficult to get it to work with AICS.

Another advantage to CRF, which I don't think was mentioned, is that it helps prevent double feeds due to short stroking the bolt.

 

[SmartDonkey]

CRF has nothing to do with the ejection of the brass.... that is the mechanical ejector. And those can easily be installed on push feed actions, but for whatever reason mechanical is the standard for crf and plunger for push.

As far as the extraction (once again I think either style is more than enough and if you are having that many extraction issues then you need to find the problem) if the extractor has room to snap over the rim from a non- controlled position..... shouldn't it in theory be able to slip off of the rim on a very tough extraction?

 

[SmartDonkey]

I didn't word that very good.... crf actions can't have plunger style ejectors because it would be in the way of the case head being grabbed- but push feed can have mechanical.

 

[BadAccountant]

The inability to single fed in some CRF actions is more of an issue from mass production. CZ's had the same issue; the radius on the face of the extractor wasn't cut large enough to allow the case head to push the extractor aside, so the case head could snap onto the bolt face. Most Pre'64 Winchesters allowed this. Some had to be tweaked. It is a fitment issue, not a constraint of the design.

Honestly, I haven't tried with an Origin...but I will.

The late model CRF Winchesters will single feed without any issues at all, including the 90s models out of New Haven. I can't speak to the true pre-64 actions.

Another often overlooked action that was designed with this specific problem in mind is the Legendary Arms Works M704 action.

 

[Steel head]

My Mausingfield wouldn't single feed with AICS mags, but does it perfectly with MDT mags. I haven't spent any time to try and figure out why, but I doubt it would be difficult to get it to work with AICS.

Another advantage to CRF, which I don't think was mentioned, is that it helps prevent double feeds due to short stroking the bolt.

To me the CRF is a bonus.
The mechanical ejector is what I really wanted.
I can dribble or launch a case.

 

[MarinePMI]

CRF has nothing to do with the ejection of the brass.... that is the mechanical ejector. And those can easily be installed on push feed actions, but for whatever reason mechanical is the standard for crf and plunger for push.

As far as the extraction (once again I think either style is more than enough and if you are having that many extraction issues then you need to find the problem) if the extractor has room to snap over the rim from a non- controlled position..... shouldn't it in theory be able to slip off of the rim on a very tough extraction?

No, because the case snaps onto the bolt face before the bolt goes into battery, before it even gets to the lug recesses. Once the bolt is into battery, there's no way for the extractor to move away from the case head.

Mechanical ejection isn't part of CRF; it's a by product of it. And (as I mentioned) has a benefit specifically for short cases. A regular length case doesn't really care (other than dented case mouths from a spring loaded plunger, smacking the case mouth into the chamber wall as it extracts). Today, as mentioned by others, the ability to control ejection force is a big benefit.

Where the added strength in extraction really provided value, was the older rimmed military cartridges. Ammo was notoriously erratic in the early 1900's, so over pressure cases were pretty common. So were wallowed chambers that created bloated cases that were difficult to extract ("A Rifleman Went to War" by H.W. McBride, talks about the issues of ammo at that time; an excellent read if you can find a copy BTW).

Think about it, 8mm Mauser, 303 Enfields, 30-40 Krags; they were all rimmed cases when the CRF Mauser design was used/copied...and for good reason. Today that much additional strength isn't usually needed, but that is where it came from. Necessity is the mother of all inventions.

Anyways, I think we're in violent agreement...just from different perspectives.

 

[Hawk in WY]

Can I single feed my Mausingfield with BDL?

 

[Tokay444]

The late model CRF Winchesters will single feed without any issues at all, including the 90s models out of New Haven. I can't speak to the true pre-64 actions.

Another often overlooked action that was designed with this specific problem in mind is the Legendary Arms Works M704 action.

I mentioned it.

 

[BadAccountant]

I mentioned it.

They're cool actions if you can find them.

 

[b6graham]

Can I single feed my Mausingfield with BDL?

probably depends more which extractor you have

i can remember a match where a friend tried to single feed on his M5 mausingfield with the polished extractor versus the older black one i had. pushed it in, didn't cam over. couldn't fire or extract it either.

cost him a few points that stage.

happened again on a long range stage. i ran over to my rifle. pulled my bolt out and threw it to him. he switched bolts and finished the stage almost clean

 

[Hawk in WY]

Thank you.

Mine is a recent M 7. I’m waiting for a barrel and the stock.

Not being able to single feed is something I had not considered.

 

[kthomas]

Thank you.

Mine is a recent M 7. I’m waiting for a barrel and the stock.

Not being able to single feed is something I had not considered.

It may very well work perfectly out of the box, or may require some minor tweaking. Apparently CRF actions usually benefit from some minor tweaking to optimize their performance, specifically tuning the claw extractor. @LongRifles Inc. or @Ledzep can speak to this much better then I.

I have an M5, one of my absolute favorite actions. I haven't had any tuning done. It runs great, but as I mentioned above, it won't single feed with an AICS mag inserted, but single feeds flawlessly when an MDT mag is inserted. Perhaps it has something to do with the geometry of the mag and the extractor. Haven't really played around with it to figure it out, since I'm mostly using MDT mags now.

 

[Ledzep]

Thank you.

Mine is a recent M 7. I’m waiting for a barrel and the stock.

Not being able to single feed is something I had not considered.

Properly fitted, almost all CRF actions (that I can think of right now) should snap over the rim in a "push feed" situation. The American Rifle Co. Mausingfield has gone through several revisions since it's initial release. Early versions of the M5 came with an extractor that sometimes needed some Dremel love. It depended mostly on the case manufacturer/caliber that you were shooting and how big the extractor cut was in front of the rim of the case. Newer versions of the M5, and now the M7 *I believe* do not have the issues the early M5's had. If they exist, nobody talks about it anymore so I have to assume it's dramatically less common.

You will hear people say that M70's and small/large ring Mausers don't snap over a rim. By design that isn't true. I think what happens (with Mausers especially) is that parts that were hand fitted and numbered to match the action get swapped around and aren't necessarily as interchangeable as people want them to be. I own/have owned a few examples of all matching Mauser produciton rifles and all of them will snap over a rim. The M70 is no different provided the extractor is the right shape. Caveat to that-- I've seen some factory M70's that didn't like snapping over the rim. American Rifle Co. Nucleus/Archimedes actions have zero problems with fitting extractors or snapping over rims. Bighorn/Zermatt actions snap over rims just fine, too. We're talking well into the land of diminishing returns here, but I do prefer ARC's extractors over Bighorn/Zermatt but as with any action purchase it comes down to your own personal preferences vs. what's offered.

The argument for CRF and not double feeding is, IMHO, mental masturbation more than anything. As far as I see it, it comes down to preference on plunger vs. manual ejectors. That and most CRF actions (esp. Mauser patterns) have more extractor purchase on the rim.

 

[LRI]

Controlled round feed actions that utilize a non-rotating Mauser type extractor should be able to single feed a cartridge without excessive effort or damage to the rim. Historically, this requires some minor fitting work when putting the gun together with brand new parts or when altering a bolt face diameter.

Shell pressure plays into this as well. For the action to function properly, the extractor claw must exert some force into the root of the case's extractor groove once it has full purchase of the case head body on the bolt face. This is the entire "point" of a CRF action. The bolt face strips the cartridge off the feed lips early in the stroke towards the breech. The case pops up and should engage the boltface with the extractor claw holding it in place. The idea being a line of sight entry into the chamber. (No climbing of the ramps)

This is why these type of actions demand a fixed ejector of some kind, be it a pin or blade. Shell pressure from a spring/pin like an M700 would be counterproductive to what needs to happen.

Hope this helps.

C.

 

[Hawk in WY]

That's very helpful, Chad. Thank you.

I will assemble the parts and see how it runs with single feed.

The rifle may be on its way to you if it doesn't single feed.

I understand that's not how it's supposed to work and I might be able to push the round down while single feeding since it's BDL and I'm not dealing with an AICS magazine.

Thank you for the advice.

 

[LRI]

That's very helpful, Chad. Thank you.

I will assemble the parts and see how it runs with single feed.

The rifle may be on its way to you if it doesn't single feed.

I understand that's not how it's supposed to work and I might be able to push the round down while single feeding since it's BDL and I'm not dealing with an AICS magazine.

Thank you for the advice.

Just to make sure we're on the same page: "Single feeding" in the context that I'm using it simply means you throw a round on top of the follower and push the bolt forward. In this instance, the extractor does not grab onto the case until its completely captured by the chamber. The bolt should resist slightly (like almost nothing) and a faint click should be heard as the claw slips over the rim and capture it.

How the cartridge behaves in the magazine box or with he follower is irrelevant because it's not actually being used.

 

[jbuck88]

I'm actually waiting for another m70 from LRI. I have several m70's and most will feed a shell tossed in the receiver, most of the time. They feel like you are jamming the shell into a wall, then take a decent force to snap the extractor over the rim. All will feed 100% of the time if you press it down into the magazine. The factory M70 extractors had a bad reputation for breaking and Williams made a good replacement. I'm not sure how true that is.

 

[Hawk in WY]

Just to make sure we're on the same page: "Single feeding" in the context that I'm using it simply means you throw a round on top of the follower and push the bolt forward. In this instance, the extractor does not grab onto the case until its completely captured by the chamber. The bolt should resist slightly (like almost nothing) and a faint click should be heard as the claw slips over the rim and capture it.

How the cartridge behaves in the magazine box or with he follower is irrelevant because it's not actually being used.

We are on the same page.

The point I was trying to make is if a round thrown on top of the follower does not feed 100% of the time, with a BDL, I always have the option of pushing the round down into the magazine box. I wouldn't have that option if I was running an AICS magazine.

Sorry if that was confusing.

 

[NaciremaToirtap]

probably depends more which extractor you have

i can remember a match where a friend tried to single feed on his M5 mausingfield with the polished extractor versus the older black one i had. pushed it in, didn't cam over. couldn't fire or extract it either.

cost him a few points that stage.

happened again on a long range stage. i ran over to my rifle. pulled my bolt out and threw it to him. he switched bolts and finished the stage almost clean

Why isn’t this talked about as widely as all other aspects that people keep repeating? Thank you for this. Seems like a huge point.

 

[Ledzep]

Why isn’t this talked about as widely as all other aspects that people keep repeating? Thank you for this. Seems like a huge point.

Because it's not a design feature. It's an artifact of an incomplete rifle build/fitting.

15 minutes with a fine file and it's gone.

 

[NaciremaToirtap]

Because it's not a design feature. It's an artifact of an incomplete rifle build/fitting.

15 minutes with a fine file and it's gone.

Thank you for the insight

 

[b6graham]

Because it's not a design feature. It's an artifact of an incomplete rifle build/fitting.

15 minutes with a fine file and it's gone.

right but it shouldn't have ever shipped imho

 

[r.ellison2010]

If you want to go custom, then all the options people are recommending here are good. If you want to stay with a factory or commercially produced rifle, I would go win70 or FN SPR. They are great actions and mine is super smooth. Bolt lift also seems incredibly light. And yes, people do build range guns or competition guns out of them.

View attachment 7383368

I just sent my old model 70 CRF to the gun smith have a new barrel, stock and trigger installed.