Correcting for wind

[Rastoff]

OK, I'm sure this subject has been hashed a million times, but I can't seem to find a concise answer. So yeah, dumb question....

You have your $500 rifle with the $2,500 glass on it. You've chrono'd your hand loads and know the exact muzzle velocity. You have a $300 bipod and a rear bag that is super solid. You pull out the range finder and see that the target is 700 yards away. You've plugged all the relevant data into the ballistics calculator. You glance at the brand new Kestrel and read the wind as 5mph from the left so you dial in....wait, as you look down range, you see a streamer waving in the breeze, but it's pointing left so the wind is coming from the right at about 420 yards. Then further down range, another streamer is hanging straight down.....

Yeah, fun little story, but I'm sure we've all seen it. The question is, what do I believe as I attempt to correct for the wind? Do I simply input whatever the Kestrel tells me at my location or do I try to get an average based on all the down range indicators? Does the wind affect the shot more at the muzzle or down range? My relatively new-to-serious-precision-shooting mind says that the projectile will be more affected by the wind way down range where it's slowed considerably. If that's true, then why did I spend $800 on a Kestrel (I haven't, but it works with the story/question)?

 

[brianf]

Fair question..
Try the search function.
it’s been discussed a few times before.

 

[Olen_4504]

Your “$800” kestrel gives you a lot more info than just wind speed. If all you wanted was wind speed you wouldn’t buy a “$800” kestrel.
(I’m putting quotes around $800 cuz idk who is spending $800 on kestrels - even the elite 5700s)

anyways -

I’ll let others come and dive into the wind reading/mirage reading/etc

wind is the hardest part of all this.
There is not a simple - do all - answer.

 

[Deleted member 113831]

All wind matters. Your Kestrel won't solve that problem for you.

You have to consider the effect of each one of those zones and make a composite call based on your prior experience.

If you don't have prior experience...then this is how you get it.

 

[1moaoff]

Hold center ... why... because I put a $2500 scope on a $500 rifle.

 

[smoothy8500]

Aside from the OP's ridiculous example, flags, mirage, and practice coupled with note-taking will help with getting more experience.

 

[Steel head]

Wind is the fun part!
I have a kestrel-rarely use it for wind but when it starts blowing in the 15mph range and more it becomes an awesome wind tool.

Calling an accurate wind call comes from experience, experience comes from the wind dropping constant reality deuces on your ego.

 

[brianf]

the most beneficial use of a wind meter/ kestral

learning wind speed effects on vegetation and alike at your current location

once you learn that a 10 MPH wind makes a certain size tree limb sway, you can then look down range and watch for those effects

if you have no idea what a 10 MPH wind does in general youll have no idea what the wind is doing down range

if you have no idea what its doing down range, it wont matter what style of "wind calling" you use it will be wrong

 

[stello1001]

3 things...

You need a more expensive rifle.

You can forget about the kestrel, especially if it is an 800dlr kestrel.

Lastly, hold dead center, fire away, spot your miss, correct for the amount of windage that you missed based on your recorded miss.

That will put you somewhere in the ballpark proximity. Yeah, gusts will make your shots somewhat inconsistent. But if you fire away based on your correction from the previous miss, at least you've already gotten an idea of how much the wind has affected the bullet.

 

[Underaverage]

I'm also relatively new to serious precision shooting and with the limited experience that I have gotten, along with the counsel and advice from more experienced shooters, I have learned that calling wind just simply takes time and practice. Do like @stello1001 just said above... Hold dead center and spot your miss, then make your correction. The only thing I would add to that is to make sure that you take either mental or physical notes of everything you observed during that interaction so that you can reference it later to make a more educated wind call the next time around. Practice, practice, practice.

 

[Lowlight]

Have a Plan upfront

The MPH Gun system works, the BC Model we discuss.

Take the first number of your G1 BC and that is your basic MPH

6.5CM for example is .58, which in some rifles can be rounded to .6 so you have a 6 MPH Gun

you base all your calls off 6 MPH, not some arbitrary number but one that is actually related to your system

6 MPH Gun @ 6 MPH Full Wind value

200 - .2
300 - .3
400 - .4
500 - .5
600 - .6

Your next wind bracket is 12 MPH

6 MPH Gun @ 12 MPH Full Wind Value

200 - .4
300 - .6
400 - .8
500 - 1.0
600 - 1.2

If you are winds are inbetween you base it percentage-wise.

How this works then is using your Kestrel you make sure you line this up to match. Then you know your kestrel is correct. Read the wind at your location. The more experience you get the farther downrange you can estimate your calls. Wind at the Shooter has the biggest effect so play the odds, read the wind at you and then put the plan into action.

If you are set up correctly, and blew the call or muffed the shot, you have the scope and reticle to measure the error and follow up. This is where believe the bullet comes in. Whatever the answer is downrange regardless of what you expected, believe the bullet, measure with the reticle, and correct.

Fuck vegetation, it's not always present the farther you shoot the higher the bullet is off the ground so grass matters very little. Vegetation is used after you gauge the values not before. Those references to objects moving via wind are too broad to be accurate. Not all vegetation moves the same.

You use your Kestrel on your free time to calibrate your senses and create a personal database. How that work is looking at the conditions, reading them using your senses, what do you see, what do you feel on your body (Better indicator than veg because your body is always there) and what do you hear in your ear pro. Then say, I think the wind is 6 MPH, read the kestrel and calibrate. The wind is actually 8 MPH, then repeat this over time. Eventually, you will have enough data points to say, I think the wind is 6 MPH and you know you are always 2 MPH less or more so you can fix it. You have an actual frame of reference. With vegetation when you have objects to look at, use the Kestrel to read the wind for at least 2 Minutes, note what the objects do while looking at the Kestrel. That tree moves more when the wind is 10 MPH vs when it's 7 MPH, so you have an actual number applied to everything. This calibrates your senses and programs your personal database teaching you the wind.

Wind moves, not in a straight line, it ebbs and flows like waves on the ocean. Software is looking at it in a straight line as if the value was constant across the entire path of the bullet.

The old mantra of go out in the wind and shoot is missing an important set of points. The Plan,
One you have no idea upfront what you are doing so this trial and error approach is time-consuming and leaves a lot to be desired. Two, you need a frame of reference otherwise you are wasting ammo. This approach works fast, gets people on target in a way that is easily repeated across any situation.

If you don't have a plan you are just throwing rounds at a problem hoping for a hit. When you get one, you don't know why, you just know at that moment X worked. A plan tells you why X worked hence is repeatable

The old wives tales from 1978 no longer apply

 

[want2learn]

fascinating, thank you

 

[Newbie2020]

Have a Plan upfront

The MPH Gun system works, the BC Model we discuss.

Take the first number of your G1 BC and that is your basic MPH

6.5CM for example is .58, which in some rifles can be rounded to .6 so you have a 6 MPH Gun

you base all your calls off 6 MPH, not some arbitrary number but one that is actually related to your system

6 MPH Gun @ 6 MPH Full Wind value

200 - .2
300 - .3
400 - .4
500 - .5
600 - .6

Your next wind bracket is 12 MPH

6 MPH Gun @ 12 MPH Full Wind Value

200 - .4
300 - .6
400 - .8
500 - 1.0
600 - 1.2

If you are winds are inbetween you base it percentage-wise.

How this works then is using your Kestrel you make sure you line this up to match. Then you know your kestrel is correct. Read the wind at your location. The more experience you get the farther downrange you can estimate your calls. Wind at the Shooter has the biggest effect so play the odds, read the wind at you and then put the plan into action.

If you are set up correctly, and blew the call or muffed the shot, you have the scope and reticle to measure the error and follow up. This is where believe the bullet comes in. Whatever the answer is downrange regardless of what you expected, believe the bullet, measure with the reticle, and correct.

Fuck vegetation, it's not always present the farther you shoot the higher the bullet is off the ground so grass matters very little. Vegetation is used after you gauge the values not before. Those references to objects moving via wind are too broad to be accurate. Not all vegetation moves the same.

You use your Kestrel on your free time to calibrate your senses and create a personal database. How that work is looking at the conditions, reading them using your senses, what do you see, what do you feel on your body (Better indicator than veg because your body is always there) and what do you hear in your ear pro. Then say, I think the wind is 6 MPH, read the kestrel and calibrate. The wind is actually 8 MPH, then repeat this over time. Eventually, you will have enough data points to say, I think the wind is 6 MPH and you know you are always 2 MPH less or more so you can fix it. You have an actual frame of reference. With vegetation when you have objects to look at, use the Kestrel to read the wind for at least 2 Minutes, note what the objects do while looking at the Kestrel. That tree moves more when the wind is 10 MPH vs when it's 7 MPH, so you have an actual number applied to everything. This calibrates your senses and programs your personal database teaching you the wind.

Wind moves, not in a straight line, it ebbs and flows like waves on the ocean. Software is looking at it in a straight line as if the value was constant across the entire path of the bullet.

The old mantra of go out in the wind and shoot is missing an important set of points. The Plan,
One you have no idea upfront what you are doing so this trial and error approach is time-consuming and leaves a lot to be desired. Two, you need a frame of reference otherwise you are wasting ammo. This approach works fast, gets people on target in a way that is easily repeated across any situation.

If you don't have a plan you are just throwing rounds at a problem hoping for a hit. When you get one, you don't know why, you just know at that moment X worked. A plan tells you why X worked hence is repeatable

The old wives tales from 1978 no longer apply

That MPH gun is brilliant stuff! I read it a month ago and it didn’t click. But it’s so clear now! I can’t wait to use it.

 

[Nap Mag]

“once you learn that a 10 MPH wind makes a certain size tree limb sway, you can then look down range and watch for those effects”

What good is being accurate at guaging wind speed down range if you can’t tell DIRECTION of the wind? Do you mean to tell me you know the difference between the tree limb sway from a 11o’clock wind vs. a 7 o’clock wind?

 

[Lowlight]

Work the wind at the shooter,

Don't worry about downrange starting out, set up your tools to gauge strength and direction at you, later you can start looking downrange, that comes by default.

Sure there are some tricky wind situations out there, but as a new shooter, you are probably confused by the basics, so work on that first. Crawl, then walk, after you can run.

Direction and Speed from your position, work the problem using what you know, my gun is 6 MPH, the wind is 8 MPH which means at 600 yards I want to hold .8 Mils into the wind, and see what happens from there.

The issue we see is people read and hear so much about wind voodoo they overload their brain thinking all the worst-case stuff. Even in the most difficult winds with this method we get guys on target in less than an afternoon.

Shooting the Valkyrie, you can see me step up and the winds are moving, especially against a 224V at 2112 yards. Brian had some dope dialed on the rifle and I used that to formulate my plan, but I have a plan in my head what I am using. The main part of the dialog is knowing where his rifle was doped to so I can pay attention to what I was gonna use.



The nice part of the video is, we don't have any real indicators out there, the grass is there, but it's too close to the ground, a 36 Mil hold has the bullet way up in the air, so we are into the second, third and fourth wind gradients. All the wind we use is from the shooter.

 

[brianf]

What good is being accurate at guaging wind speed down range if you can’t tell DIRECTION of the wind? Do you mean to tell me you know the difference between the tree limb sway from a 11o’clock wind vs. a 7 o’clock wind?

Yes and yes.

My first class I was a disaster, couldn’t shoot for shit and couldn’t read wind for shit. Pretty useless all things considered. Lol

And I’m not being a jerk, it’s just time.

Not rushing and watching the conditions as everyone is saying.

Mirage, veg, any and all “natural wind indicators”. Try/learn them all, then use that you see through optics and relate.

I was taught a slightly different method by a old school guy, but it made sense to me.

He had me call every shot and write down what conditions I saw. No pda ballistic app stuff back then. Back then (early 2000’s) the ballistic apps only had 1 wind input. If you wanted to use those programs you needed a little vudoo or a ton of time in the field. Which he knew new shooters didnt have and didn’t want us getting overloaded.

It was in the hills mountains on the east coast. Winds on this side of the country are a little different than the more consistent t winds of the central plains and east side of the Rockies.

If I was too far off I’d get off the rifle and we’d both get on spotting scopes and he’d talk me through wind direction, speeds, ebbs and flows at 2-3 locations (shooter, mid, target).

 

[Underaverage]

Gotta love having somebody like Frank on here to give out wisdom like that. Read up fellas. That information is absolutely invaluable.

 

[Rastoff]

Thank you lowlight for those two very insightful posts. That's exactly what I was wondering and asking about. Learning that the wind has more affect on the bullet closer to the shooter helps me understand better.


I hope everyone realizes that my OP was just a fiction about the equipment. I know a Kestrel doesn't cost that much and I have spent a little more on my rifle. I really was just interested in learning to understand the wind and it's affects on my shooting better.