Criterion barrels - Accuracy

[TonyAngel]

A while back, I decided that I wanted to go with barrels that would stand up to hard use a bit better than the run of the mill Ballistic Advantage or Roscoe type barrels and decided to go with Criterion.

I went with a 14.5 Core to run with a 10x scope, a 13.9 Core to run with an ACOG and a 12.5 Hybrid to run with a red dot and suppressed. The 12.5 gets the hardest use.

I don't handload anymore and when hunting for ammo, I look for a bang for the buck. I've run 77gr Razor Core, AAC 77gr and some other upper quality heavy rounds. I've also run 55gr V-Max from Black Dot Ammo, AAC 55gr V-Max, ADI 55gr Blitzking, etc.

The best all three barrels will do for me when running the heavier stuff is about 2 MOA. When running the lighter stuff, shooting MOA or better is easy. I can get 2.5 MOA with good M193 and M855.

Is this a characteristic of Criterion barrels or did I just manage to get three barrels that act the same way?

 

[moaorbust]

I have had two Criterion barrels and they were both 1 MOA barrels with a decent load.

 

[Redlion]

My 18" Criterion 6.5 grendel barrel shoots moa or better. I even get moa with Hornady Frontier 123gr ammo.

 

[simonp]

I suspect it's more a characteristic of the factory ammo especially if you are choosing the ammo based primarily on price as you indicate.

 

[BCP]

A while back, I decided that I wanted to go with barrels that would stand up to hard use a bit better than the run of the mill Ballistic Advantage or Roscoe type barrels and decided to go with Criterion.

I went with a 14.5 Core to run with a 10x scope, a 13.9 Core to run with an ACOG and a 12.5 Hybrid to run with a red dot and suppressed. The 12.5 gets the hardest use.

I don't handload anymore and when hunting for ammo, I look for a bang for the buck. I've run 77gr Razor Core, AAC 77gr and some other upper quality heavy rounds. I've also run 55gr V-Max from Black Dot Ammo, AAC 55gr V-Max, ADI 55gr Blitzking, etc.

The best all three barrels will do for me when running the heavier stuff is about 2 MOA. When running the lighter stuff, shooting MOA or better is easy. I can get 2.5 MOA with good M193 and M855.

Is this a characteristic of Criterion barrels or did I just manage to get three barrels that act the same way?

77gr AAC and Razorcore is really 1.5MOA ammo imho if you want tiny groups 55-60gr varmint stuff is where it's at (if you are limited to factory only). Criterion barrels are typically 1MOA at best unless it's custom chambered or you get lucky.

 

[SpeedyR]

If you want to see what the ammo/barrel combination is capable, most companies consider Federal Gold Medal Match to the industry standard when looking at group sizes. For 223, usually 77gr SMK, 175gr 308, etc. You don't have to go buy a case but 2 boxes should give you a solid representation of what the rifle is capable of shooting. Also have a buddy that it is a good shot have a go and see what he can do as well. Maybe try a box or two of FGMM and maybe Black Hills 77gr OTM or TMK. Those would be the top two factory loads that I think most would expect to be one or both sub MOA at 100' with a premium barrel.

 

[Niles Coyote]

To give you an idea of what 77 razorcore can do in the best of circumstances, fired from my tactical division prs rig.

 

[TonyTheTiger]

My Core likes any load with a 69 or 77gr SMK on top.

 

[TonyAngel]

I have had two Criterion barrels and they were both 1 MOA barrels with a decent load.

My Core likes any load with a 69 or 77gr SMK on top.

Yes, this was my expectation. I know I'm not shooting match grade ammunition, but it isn't trash either. I questioned my shooting, but then I couldn't explain good results with light loads, but not so good with heavier loads. I didn't think I was being unreasonable expecting MOAish performance.

After criterions being out of stock for a while, they came back in stock, so I ordered all three at the same time from the same vendor. I wonder if all three were from the same lot which might explain similar behavior.

It's been a good while since I got the ones I have. Maybe I'll order one more and see. Maybe I'll try a geissele. I'd like to have one barrel that does well with 77s.

 

[TacticalPlinker]

I hoping Criterion offers a 1/7 twist option for the CORE series. I'm not a fan of 1/8 for 77 gr

 

[TonyAngel]

I hoping Criterion offers a 1/7 twist option for the CORE series. I'm not a fan of 1/8 for 77 gr

Yeah, that's why I'm considering something else. I want chrome lined and figure i might as well go hammer forged as well.

Geissele, Centurion, Daniel Defense, FN. I'm gonna have to draw a name out of a hat.

 

[BCP]

Those will likely be the same or worse, look at stainless Hbar like white oak for an off the shelf. I’ve had good luck with green mountain too, or if you want to spend the money craddok or lothar walther come to mind.

 

[TonyAngel]

Those will likely be the same or worse, look at stainless Hbar like white oak for an off the shelf. I’ve had good luck with green mountain too, or if you want to spend the money craddok or lothar walther come to mind.

I have a WOA barrel and they do shoot very well. I'm hunting for something that i can put a lot of rounds through. Something duty grade. As mentioned, I'm not looking for match grade, just MOAish with decent ammo. I'd like to run 77s for over 400 yards.

 

[MSTN]

I firmly believe that the Criterion CORE barrel is the best bang for the buck you can find. Close to the very best regardless of price.

Spend some time inside a dozen or so of them with a borescope and you'll appreciate why. They're gorgeous inside.

With top shelf ammo, they will shoot top shelf groups.

Their Wylde chamber with 1x8 twist gives you 1.5" - 2.0" barrel length worth of velocity over a NATO chamber 1x7 twist, too.

My latest Criterion barrel GPR:

 

[TonyTheTiger]

I hoping Criterion offers a 1/7 twist option for the CORE series. I'm not a fan of 1/8 for 77 gr

Why?

 

[fedupflyer]

I have a Criterion 18' hybrid that shoots sub MOA with 77g FGM.
As in I have been getting groups as small as .55 with FGM 77g.


I am guessing the OP build is probably a sloppy fitting upper to the barrel extension.
or
The harder you push a 77g (above FGM velocities) the more accuracy you loose.


I also have a Core barrel in 16' and another one in 11.5'.
They shoot well but I haven't had the opportunity to measure them the way I want to.
IE, match ammo, 10x+ optic and at least 100 yds prone.

 

[TonyAngel]

I firmly believe that the Criterion CORE barrel is the best bang for the buck you can find. Close to the very best regardless of price.

Spend some time inside a dozen or so of them with a borescope and you'll appreciate why. They're gorgeous inside.

With top shelf ammo, they will shoot top shelf groups.

Their Wylde chamber with 1x8 twist gives you 1.5" - 2.0" barrel length worth of velocity over a NATO chamber 1x7 twist, too.

My latest Criterion barrel GPR:

View attachment 8519546

I noticed that about the velocity too. I'm getting 3000 fps out of M193 and 2900 fps out of M855 from my 13.9 Core. In comparison, I got the same velocities out of a BA 16" barrel.

I have a Criterion 18' hybrid that shoots sub MOA with 77g FGM.
As in I have been getting groups as small as .55 with FGM 77g.


I am guessing the OP build is probably a sloppy fitting upper to the barrel extension.
or
The harder you push a 77g (above FGM velocities) the more accuracy you loose.


I also have a Core barrel in 16' and another one in 11.5'.
They shoot well but I haven't had the opportunity to measure them the way I want to.
IE, match ammo, 10x+ optic and at least 100 yds prone.

Although the subject of a "sloppy" fit having an impact on accuracy could be the subject of some debate, my rigs were assembled insuring that the receiver face was square and the extension thermal fit into a BCM upper.

 

[JohnDeereGuy1996]

I’ve had two criterion’s and neither shot well.

 

[fedupflyer]

I noticed that about the velocity too. I'm getting 3000 fps out of M193 and 2900 fps out of M855 from my 13.9 Core. In comparison, I got the same velocities out of a BA 16" barrel.


Although the subject of a "sloppy" fit having an impact on accuracy could be the subject of some debate, my rigs were assembled insuring that the receiver face was square and the extension thermal fit into a BCM upper.

I don't see how it is up for debate.
A tight fitting upper to barrel extension will improve accuracy as compared to a sloppy fit.
That is how I took my blemished BCM upper and criterion barrel from 1.5 MOA to somewhere between .8 MOA and .55 MOA.
I had to use shims and green loctite to achieve that.
I no longer recommend BCM uppers after my last few retail uppers from them.

It is possible that you might have a bad barrel. It just happens sometimes.

If you are going to test a barrel with factory ammo. Use Federal Gold Match 77g.
If it wont shoot that well, it probably wont shoot anything else well either.

 

[db2000]

My 20” Wylde Criterion SS 1:8 shoots my hand loads well. 1 MOA x 10.

 

[Redlion]

I don't see how it is up for debate.
A tight fitting upper to barrel extension will improve accuracy as compared to a sloppy fit.
That is how I took my blemished BCM upper and criterion barrel from 1.5 MOA to somewhere between .8 MOA and .55 MOA.
I had to use shims and green loctite to achieve that.
I no longer recommend BCM uppers after my last few retail uppers from them.

It is possible that you might have a bad barrel. It just happens sometimes.

If you are going to test a barrel with factory ammo. Use Federal Gold Match 77g.
If it wont shoot that well, it probably wont shoot anything else well either.

How old was the BCM upper? They have been thermal fit for at least the past 4-5 years. Shimming not required.

 

[fedupflyer]

How old was the BCM upper? They have been thermal fit for at least the past 4-5 years. Shimming not required.

That particular blemished upper is more than 10 yrs old probably closer to 15). It was the first AR I built as a project gun to learn on, so if I screwed up too bad I would not be out a bunch of $$$s. Even back then folks were saying the blems were as good as the retail and needed a thermal fit.

The BCM uppers that I am referring to are between 2-4 yrs old (The ones that made me change my mind about BCM).
The last two retail uppers I purchased from BCM, only had a slight tightness about them. I could force the barrel in by hand and no heat needed. I think I tried three (or more) different barrels mad by different manufactures and same things happened.

I have one I built with a BCM retail upper and a Mcgowan barrel that did require a small amount of heat and it is a sub MOA shooter.
I plan to disassemble it and use green loctite on the barrel extension to see how much it will tighten the groups up.
Looks like a winter project for me.

Aero Precision is even worse, can spin the barrel easily in the upper.

I do have a couple of uppers from another manufacturer that are true thermal fits. They require a torch to heat it up to put the barrel in but I am not ready to share the name of that particular company just yet. Their uppers are hard enough to get.

 

[Jsp556]

I have 308 and 6.5 Creedmoor barrels from criterion that shoot good groups. I wouldn’t hesitate to use one of their cl 223wylde barrels

 

[Redlion]

That particular blemished upper is more than 10 yrs old probably closer to 15). It was the first AR I built as a project gun to learn on, so if I screwed up too bad I would not be out a bunch of $$$s. Even back then folks were saying the blems were as good as the retail and needed a thermal fit.

The BCM uppers that I am referring to are between 2-4 yrs old (The ones that made me change my mind about BCM).
The last two retail uppers I purchased from BCM, only had a slight tightness about them. I could force the barrel in by hand and no heat needed. I think I tried three (or more) different barrels mad by different manufactures and same things happened.

I have one I built with a BCM retail upper and a Mcgowan barrel that did require a small amount of heat and it is a sub MOA shooter.
I plan to disassemble it and use green loctite on the barrel extension to see how much it will tighten the groups up.
Looks like a winter project for me.

Aero Precision is even worse, can spin the barrel easily in the upper.

I do have a couple of uppers from another manufacturer that are true thermal fits. They require a torch to heat it up to put the barrel in but I am not ready to share the name of that particular company just yet. Their uppers are hard enough to get.

Weird, but I believe you. I have built a couple 16" AR's using BCM uppers the past couple of years. One was using an FN barrel and the second was using a SOLGW barrel. Both required me to use the heat gun. I had a bear of a time getting the SOLGW barrel fully in.

 

[.505gibbs]

If you truly believe it is the barrel, contact Criterion. Their warranty/customer service is exceptional in my experience.

 

[TonyAngel]

I don't see how it is up for debate.
A tight fitting upper to barrel extension will improve accuracy as compared to a sloppy fit.
That is how I took my blemished BCM upper and criterion barrel from 1.5 MOA to somewhere between .8 MOA and .55 MOA.
I had to use shims and green loctite to achieve that.
I no longer recommend BCM uppers after my last few retail uppers from them.

It is possible that you might have a bad barrel. It just happens sometimes.

If you are going to test a barrel with factory ammo. Use Federal Gold Match 77g.
If it wont shoot that well, it probably wont shoot anything else well either.

Man, i asked the original question because I'm getting a disparity in performance between heavy and light bullets and was wondering if anyone else was getting similar results.

As I said, I'm getting the same results across three different barrels.

Personally, if I had an upper that needed to be shimmed and bedded, I wouldn't use it. Uppers are cheap. Still, if you're saying that you turned a 1.5 MOA rifle into a .5 MOA rifle just by shimming and bedding the barrel, I'd need to see it to believe it.

 

[bfoosh006]

What specific muzzle device are you using ?

And how snug is the fit between the upper and lower ? It does matter when wielding the AR consistently for precision shooting.

Plenty of clearance between the gas block and handguard ? Nothing close to the gas block, that could make contact ? No rail screws close to the gas block ?

And for what it is worth, Truing and loctiting a barrel in, can help with flyers, as well as tighten up group sizes in ammo ( YMMV ) , but not every single load. For my uppers that are not thermal fit, I did see dramatic enough differences to True and Glue every barrel in place.

In my experience, and given the little added assm. effort, I will always TnG in a loose fitting / non thermal fit upper.

Through my 20" PSA barreled PSA upper ... before and after TnG
Some of the rounds that showed the most improvement are ... ( no specific order.. ) Again group size does not have .264 subtracted from them.

Difference in group size, FGMM 130gr Hybrid OTM..... Before 2.3660" 5rds, .... After .9580".

Difference in group size, .Hornady 140gr ELD Match.... Before 2.2045" 5rds, .... After .9290".

Difference in group size, PRIME 130gr HPBT Match.... Before 1.9165" 5rds, .... After .9620"...

Difference in group size, Federal Fusion 140gr..... Before 2.1445"... After... 1.4355"

Difference in group size, Hornady American Gunner 140gr BTHP.... Before ...1.1950" .... After.... .7520"

Difference in group size...Creedmoor Sports 140gr Nosler BTHP... Before 1.5135"... After... .8770"

Please note, not every factory load I tried showed dramatic improvement, a few were moderately worse... and some remained close enough to the same to as before , but for the most part the improvements made it worth while to me... especially considering the cost of the complete uppers used.



I had the same results with a .308 18" Criterion and 22" 6.5CM barreled upper that are TnG'd

Here is a pic of each of my Criterion barrels better groups... (10rds each, both 100yds, benched, scoped, rapid'ish fire ( no barrel cool down ) all the accuracy improvement assm. tricks I could do easily.
NOTE: I threw the flyers in both... I got to giddy from the group sizes.

Both LFAR's assm.d with an Adj. GB ( SLR ), heavy buffer weights, 9.3oz for the 6.5CM, Tubbs 308 Flatwire , .308 carbine stocked / 5.3oz buffer , Tubbs .308 Flatwire, Both TnG'd , I made sure there was no chance of gas block contact with the handguards, and snug fitting upper to lower.

10rds Horn. AG 140gr 6.5CM, PSA upper with 22" Criterion, TnG

.308 18" 155gr Horn. AG, PSA Upper, with 18" Criterion, TnG

Another 308 with a cheap nitrated barrel w/ 20rds DAG surplus after TnG>

I am not saying TnG will always do this...
But my results, proved its worth to me.

So , again... I say do it, if your upper is not thermal fit.

I have a ton of before and after TnG pics... with various barrels ( cheap and moderate priced ) , with various surplus, and factory ammo .
To many photos to repost them all, Lol



Ultimately, done properly, it shows a worthwhile improvement to me across various TnG uppers.

 

[Huskydriver]

Isn't criterion a step below ba? I mean... Both button rifled and all

 

[bfoosh006]

Isn't criterion a step below ba? I mean... Both button rifled and all

Not in my experience.... I did the same experiment ( as above ) with a 22" 6.5CM BA / Aero heavy barrel, and it never came close to shooting as well as my Criterion's. ( Heck my 20" PSA OEM nitrated barrel did better then my BA barrel. )

As always ... YMMV... some BA barrels can shoot, and some aren't so good... so the consistent improvements with Criterion barrels made me a customer.

To be honest the lack of improvement , with the BA barrel, soured me enough to not use BA/Aero barrels again. That BA barrel wasn't going to shoot up to my expectations , no matter what I did.
And believe me I tried.

I know sample of one.. but other barrels certainly showed improvements after TnG.

For the OP, p,ease double check the various stuff I mentioned in my above post, and let us know the results, Thank You

 

[Niles Coyote]

Isn't criterion a step below ba? I mean... Both button rifled and all

They supply at least one custom shop that I am aware of that is highly regarded as one of the best, so I'd say no.

 

[Huskydriver]

They supply at least one custom shop that I am aware of that is highly regarded as one of the best, so I'd say no.

Which one?

 

[Hoody2shoes]

Both my criterion barrels had rough break in periods. Right around 200rnds they calmed down and tightend up.

12.5 core with griffin explorr. Current round count around 6k

All groups shot with an atacr 1-8 and front sandbag
Black hills 77 box avg vel 2650

Badlands 75 gr shell shock. Avg vel 2750

 

[db2000]

Stainless .223 Wylde HBAR description on the website.

 

[BCP]

Those are good velocities for 12.5 I wonder if the suprrressor gets you some extra.

 

[fedupflyer]

Personally, if I had an upper that needed to be shimmed and bedded, I wouldn't use it. Uppers are cheap. Still, if you're saying that you turned a 1.5 MOA rifle into a .5 MOA rifle just by shimming and bedding the barrel, I'd need to see it to believe it.

I don't really consider $100+ cheap for a descent quality upper.
I have a Aero Precision in 308 that I am dicking with now trying to get a tight fit and that was more than $100.

As far as the evidence goes, I left the before and after targets at the gun smithing class I attended that yielded my results.
Try it for yourself and YMMV.
I can only tell you what I have done and what I have personally seen.

As others have said, you probably have something going on with your build other than having a bad barrel.
I would start with making sure the gas block is not contacting the handguard when you load up the bipod/rest when you shoot.
Then, what type of muzzle device are you using and what torque value did you use.
Then , what torque on the gas block.
Then , what torque on the barrel nut.

Did you break in the barrel and how and how many shoots did you have down the tube before you did accuracy testing.
Personally I do the 1 shoot one clean for the first five rounds and then 5 shots then clean for the next 25 rnds and then will do actual test once I hit 150 rnds.

Lots if little factors to consider.
The AR pattern rifle might be the Mr Potato head of guns but a little more knowledge (and trial & error) to put together a great shooting one.

 

[benson821]

I've had pretty good luck with my 18" Core. I rebuilt a RRA LEF-T upper with it, didn't do anything fancy, just tightened the new barrel nut on and installed parts. I did notice it was somewhat a little finicky with ammo, I had a pile of Frontier 68gr that would be good one day and then another would be 1.5-2", I actually shot at a target during a match at 560-ish and had the round impact about 6 feet low.

I have played with quite a few different offerings of match ammo and the group above was shot with ADI 69gr, I have now stockpiled quite a few cases. Best I can say is find an ammo it seems to be happy with and buy that.

 

[TonyAngel]

I have to apologize. As it turns out, it was all my fault. Although I did double check my optic setup that I use for testing, my frustration and a new scope purchase lead me to using a new setup and everything came together. When I removed the rings from my test rig, I inspected the rings using a magnifier and there were hairline fractures in the ring clamps.

I feel like an idiot because it never occurred to me that there might be a problem with the mount.

 

[03machstock]

Ge

I have to apologize. As it turns out, it was all my fault. Although I did double check my optic setup that I use for testing, my frustration and a new scope purchase lead me to using a new setup and everything came together. When I removed the rings from my test rig, I inspected the rings using a magnifier and there were hairline fractures in the ring clamps.

I feel like an idiot because it never occurred to me that there might be a problem with the mount.

it happens to the best of us, Get it fixed and report back with new group sizes

 

[TonyAngel]

Ge

it happens to the best of us, Get it fixed and report back with new group sizes

Man, i should have taken pictures. I'm just not much of a group shooter and didn't think about it. I went out yesterday to a short range (100 yards) and took a box of every type of ammo i had on hand to try out this new Leupold Mk4 i just got.

I was shooting at 2" pasters and using my finger as a ruler I was satisfied. With Hornady black 75gr, all shots were well within the 2", as it was with 77gr Razor core. The AAC ammo mostly shot well, with about 25% of the shots going either high or low. It's a real shame. That AAC ammo could be killer for the price if they could get the consistency down. The velocities were all over the place.

The AAC 55gr V-Max shot pretty well too. It seemed to be more consistent than the heavier stuff shooting about MOA according to my finger. The best results I got were with Black Dot 55gr V-Max. All 4 5 shot groups were MOA or better with 2 of the groups being about one ragged hole.

I'm happy.

 

[TonyAngel]

Maybe this thread wasn't a total waste of time. The references to velocities out of criterion barrels match the results that i get.

A while ago, I got it in my head to do an SPRish build and figured I'd go with a 16" for a little more velocity. I went with a Ballistic Advantage Hanson barrel. I thought i was crazy when I found that I was getting the same velocities out of the 16" Hanson as I was getting out of my 13.9 Criterion. With M193 and M855 I'm getting 3000 and 2900 fps. With my 12.5, im losing 100 fps with any given load.

I really love my 12.5, but the hybrid profile is a bit front heavy. I may just have my 13.9 Core cut down to 12.5 and play around with a 12.5 middle a bit. Having a 14.5 and 13.9 is a bit redundant.