Cryptic coatings questions

[Dildobaggins]

Looking for a SHTF BCG. Ordered a nitrided toolcraft, and the staking is horrid. (Easy fix.) But I read wrong and thought it was chrome lined and is not. Started looking at BCM, DD, LMT and Colt. but I've have phosphate BCGs and they are a bitch to clean. Also idk if Colt is even making those own BCGs anymore.

Looked on cryptic coatings website. Who makes thier BCGs? Also, is it worth the money? How do they hold up? Any information on them would be great. Thanks!

 

[nhdeadhead]

They use to use toolcrafts but not sure nowadays as they are unbranded but I will say I love mine. I picked up a blem for $225ish and cant even tell it’s a blem. Their coating is awesome and really easy to clean. Not sure I’d pay over $300 for one but if you can grab one around the $200 mark I wouldn’t hesitate to pick one up.

 

[Dildobaggins]

They use to use toolcrafts but not sure nowadays as they are unbranded but I will say I love mine. I picked up a blem for $225ish and cant even tell it’s a blem. Their coating is awesome and really easy to clean. Not sure I’d pay over $300 for one but if you can grab one around the $200 mark I wouldn’t hesitate to pick one up.

They have blems in mystic gold which I'd like, but in the FAQs it says might have damage to coating, so I'm thinking what's the point? That's what I'm buying it for, but it sounds like they are just fine.

 

[nhdeadhead]

Even the blems are covered by their lifetime warranty (except for their Titantium bcg ) and they’re customer service seems pretty responsive. I’ve got about 2k rounds on mine and after a quick effortless wipe down it looks new again and no visible wear

 

[Blackcreek]

What about fail zero. They have been around quite awhile. I just got one for a new build but haven't used it yet so more asking about it than anything.

M16/4 Full-Auto BCG | FailZero BCGs

A completely assembled, ready to install Full-Auto BCG

www.failzero.com

 

[S197]

Looking for a SHTF BCG. Ordered a nitrided toolcraft, and the staking is horrid. (Easy fix.) But I read wrong and thought it was chrome lined and is not. Started looking at BCM, DD, LMT and Colt. but I've have phosphate BCGs and they are a bitch to clean. Also idk if Colt is even making those own BCGs anymore.

Looked on cryptic coatings website. Who makes thier BCGs? Also, is it worth the money? How do they hold up? Any information on them would be great. Thanks!

I wouldn’t worry over the chrome lining, the nitride coating will hold up and clean just as easy.

 

[UpSideDown]

The only thing I’ve seen break on a BCG is the gas key bolts. LWRC sells the assembled or bare bolt carrier on their site. The gas key is an integral element of their bolt carrier, with a threaded tube that inserts into the carrier and is then pinned in place to accept the gas tube. If I wanted something I’d trust to not break, I’d get that carrier for $200 and throw a BCM bolt in it.

I think the coatings on BCG’s are overrated. Anything that isn’t phosphate is just a wipe-clean job. Nitriding the bolt bore is not the same as chroming it, but I think it’ll take a lot of rounds to wear through a nitrided bore enough to matter.

If I wanted a conventional BCG I’d just buy a BCM. Tool craft and Fail Zero are in the better-than-PSA category but I don’t think they’re really quality items? As witnessed by the bad staking job - One of the most important parts of BCG manufacturing because it can cause the gas key bolts to break or let them loosen.

 

[srt-4_uk]

I had a BCG that wouldn't cycle in any upper I had. Lots of troubleshooting later, I find the bolt on the gas key was sheared off but it took forever to notice because the staking was holding the bolt head in place.

When I replaced most of the gas keys with modified ones to fit a POF roller cam. No staking just a little loctite/vibratite and no problems thousands of rounds later. It was my main 3 gun rifle for a few years so it saw some abuse.

Personally, I don't care about how well the staking looks. All the gas keys I removed had staked bolts and they took little effort to remove.

 

[Dildobaggins]

The only thing I’ve seen break on a BCG is the gas key bolts. LWRC sells the assembled or bare bolt carrier on their site. The gas key is an integral element of their bolt carrier, with a threaded tube that inserts into the carrier and is then pinned in place to accept the gas tube. If I wanted something I’d trust to not break, I’d get that carrier for $200 and throw a BCM bolt in it.

I think the coatings on BCG’s are overrated. Anything that isn’t phosphate is just a wipe-clean job. Nitriding the bolt bore is not the same as chroming it, but I think it’ll take a lot of rounds to wear through a nitrided bore enough to matter.

If I wanted a conventional BCG I’d just buy a BCM. Tool craft and Fail Zero are in the better-than-PSA category but I don’t think they’re really quality items? As witnessed by the bad staking job - One of the most important parts of BCG manufacturing because it can cause the gas key bolts to break or let them loosen.

Through my research, I believe toolcraft makes BCGs for PSA, and quite a few other manufacturers. I believe microbest makes BCM, but toolcraft and BCM both sell chrome lined carriers with chrome lined gas keys. I just received a toolcraft nitride BCG last week. Staking could be better for sure, but Brownells sells a staking tool, and from my understanding if the metal is in contact with the gas key screws then it's properly staked. So no disrespect, but I'm in complete disagreement with the statement that they are in the better than PSA category. To be honest, I agree with you about the coating though, but they look awesome. Haha. Maybe I'll give BCM a go and I'll look into the LWRC

Just received an email from cryptic coatings and they said they make them in house and outsource to toolcraft when needed.

 

[UpSideDown]

Through my research, I believe toolcraft makes BCGs for PSA, and quite a few other manufacturers. I believe microbest makes BCM, but toolcraft and BCM both sell chrome lined carriers with chrome lined gas keys. I just received a toolcraft nitride BCG last week. Staking could be better for sure, but Brownells sells a staking tool, and from my understanding if the metal is in contact with the gas key screws then it's properly staked. So no disrespect, but I'm in complete disagreement with the statement that they are in the better than PSA category. To be honest, I agree with you about the coating though, but they look awesome. Haha. Maybe I'll give BCM a go and I'll look into the LWRC

Just received an email from cryptic coatings and they said they make them in house and outsource to toolcraft when needed.

So Toolcraft is PSA quality? Or, PSA is Toolcraft quality?

 

[Dildobaggins]

So Toolcraft is PSA quality? Or, PSA is Toolcraft quality?

Or toolcraft is quality, and they manufacture BCGs for a plethora of companies includinf cryptic coatings. Also, never really heard of anyone having a problem with a PSA BCG to my knowledge. I think BCM is overated and over priced. The children on arfcom seem to have nothing but problems with them in the threads. I'm curious how you came to the conclusion that toolcraft is in better than PSA quality comment? Do you care to expound on why they aren't any good or if lesser quality?

 

[UpSideDown]

Or toolcraft is quality, and they manufacture BCGs for a plethora of companies includinf cryptic coatings. Also, never really heard of anyone having a problem with a PSA BCG to my knowledge. I think BCM is overated and over priced. The children on arfcom seem to have nothing but problems with them in the threads. I'm curious how you came to the conclusion that toolcraft is in better than PSA quality comment? Do you care to expound on why they aren't any good or if lesser quality?

I'm not going to argue with you about the luxurious quality of PSA and Toolcraft BCG's. There's enough high quality options on the market that I don't know why either one is in this discussion.

 

[Dildobaggins]

I'm not going to argue with you about the luxurious quality of PSA and Toolcraft BCG's. There's enough high quality options on the market that I don't know why either one is in this discussion.

Okay so you have no explatnation as to why toolcraft is subpar?...got it. not surprised. I honestly don't like asking questions on here. Alot of people that answer just regurgitate shit they read with zero evidence. Case and point. Toolcraft used to make BCGs for the military I believes as well. I'm sorry I don't agree with your BCG options.

 

[UpSideDown]

Okay so you have no explatnation as to why toolcraft is subpar?...got it. not surprised. I honestly don't like asking questions on here. Alot of people that answer just regurgitate shit they read with zero evidence. Case and point. Toolcraft used to make BCGs for the military I believes as well. I'm sorry I don't agree with your BCG options.

Toolcraft offers BCG's at a certain price point. I've never run one, I cannot provide extensive end-user sample testing for you on any BCG of a useful sample size. Colt used to, and still does, make stuff for the military, and the general consensus of their stuff has been heavily skewed for years - making something for the military doesn't make all of a company's products good. And if you really want evidence, I don't think any actual hard evidence exists for any BCG comparison. There are only a handful of fairly subjective tests out there that provide very narrow samples. We have to go off of what we can gather based on the construction of the parts, and heavily biased subjective end user feedback.

You end up with 'evidence' like this:

Filthy 14: Bravo Company Carbine Goes 31,165 Rounds - SWAT Survival | Weapons | Tactics

The M16 was first promoted as a gun that needed no maintenance. While that statement proved false, a number of factors, including propellant powder and a lack

www.swatmag.com

 

[bill_van]

Nothing wrong with ToolCraft. Regarding chrome lining, unless you are running in FA, it won't make a difference..... as an example, if you are willing to run an nitride or melonite barrel, the bullet traveling down the bore produces more of everything compared to the gas key or bolt bore. The heat alone in the barrel is considerably higher than anything the bolt or gas key will experience.

I used to work at a shop that would receive a box of 100 CMT/Stag BCGs (C158 HPT and MPI tested) and never had one returned and I still use them 15 years later without any issues. Coatings are interesting and I've tried many but I always go back to CMT phosphated groups. they do take a little longer to clean but you'll find that the coated groups will also get dirty with heavy and or suppressed use. Pick the one you like and run with it!

 

[Milf Dots]

SOTAR has some interesting observations in his inspections of various brands of BCGs.

 

[Dildobaggins]

SOTAR has some interesting observations in his inspections of various brands of BCGs.

Just checked him out real quick. That looks like a gold mine of good info. Thanks man!

 

[Dildobaggins]

Nothing wrong with ToolCraft. Regarding chrome lining, unless you are running in FA, it won't make a difference..... as an example, if you are willing to run an nitride or melonite barrel, the bullet traveling down the bore produces more of everything compared to the gas key or bolt bore. The heat alone in the barrel is considerably higher than anything the bolt or gas key will experience.

I used to work at a shop that would receive a box of 100 CMT/Stag BCGs (C158 HPT and MPI tested) and never had one returned and I still use them 15 years later without any issues. Coatings are interesting and I've tried many but I always go back to CMT phosphated groups. they do take a little longer to clean but you'll find that the coated groups will also get dirty with heavy and or suppressed use. Pick the one you like and run with it!

I have a stag varminter upper, that has never had a malfunction. I don't shoot it a ton, but still runs flawless

 

[Dildobaggins]

I ended up buying a SOLGW phosphate BCG for $169, with $30 bonus bucks for PA. It's for a SHTF build, so I said screw it, but when the cryptic coatings one I want is back in stock I think I'll pick one up. Thanks for all the info everyone.

 

[El Viejo]

SOTAR has some interesting observations in his inspections of various brands of BCGs.

I know this is long after this thread ran its course, but I found your post looking for info on BCG coatings and specifically Cryptic. I could not find any reference to SOTAR. Is this a contributor on snipershide.com or a 3rd party source?

 

[msgriff]

I know this is long after this thread ran its course, but I found your post looking for info on BCG coatings and specifically Cryptic. I could not find any reference to SOTAR. Is this a contributor on snipershide.com or a 3rd party source?

SOTAR is School of the American Rifle. They have courses for gunsmiths, armorers and enthusiasts ran by a guy named Chad Albrecht. He also does videos on the technical aspect of various parts/components.

 

[El Viejo]

SOTAR is School of the American Rifle. They have courses for gunsmiths, armorers and enthusiasts ran by a guy named Chad Albrecht. He also does videos on the technical aspect of various parts/components.

Thanks!

 

[the monk]

I know this is long after this thread ran its course, but I found your post looking for info on BCG coatings and specifically Cryptic. I could not find any reference to SOTAR. Is this a contributor on snipershide.com or a 3rd party source?

SOTAR is the School of the American Rifle. You can find most of his work as far as gauging BCG and guns on youtube - https://www.youtube.com/@InstructorChad. As a general rule, he is not that big of a fan of fancy coatings on BCGs unless it's chrome or NP3 like the SIONICS BCG which is one of the best BCGs you can buy. His top 3 are Colt, SIONICS , and SOLGW.

 

[MontanaMan]

Well, he's missing a lot of equally good or better ones............Young Mfg., Rubber City Armory, JP & Radian just to name a few.

MM

 

[El Viejo]

SOTAR is the School of the American Rifle. You can find most of his work as far as gauging BCG and guns on youtube - https://www.youtube.com/@InstructorChad. As a general rule, he is not that big of a fan of fancy coatings on BCGs unless it's chrome or NP3 like the SIONICS BCG which is one of the best BCGs you can buy. His top 3 are Colt, SIONICS , and SOLGW.

I watched a couple of the reviews. Very thoughtful and thorough. Very impressive.

Is there a table or some other resource that identifies the primary manufacturer of BCGs for the various brands like JP, Cryptic, WMD, Stag, PSA, etc.?

 

[Dildobaggins]

I watched a couple of the reviews. Very thoughtful and thorough. Very impressive.

Is there a table or some other resource that identifies the primary manufacturer of BCGs for the various brands like JP, Cryptic, WMD, Stag, PSA, etc.?

I've wondered this myself. I've read on forums that sionics makes these brands, and toolcraft makes these, and so without any proof. Not saying they are wrong but a lot of what I see on forums is just regurgitation from a different thread on the same subject. But I believe (again speculation) that quite a few BCG manufacturers make their own and they say so on their websites. Or they take sionics and toolcraft and beef them up. However, cryptic coatings makes thiers in house and sometimes outsources to toolcraft according to the email I received from them. So you can check them off the list.

 

[the monk]

Well, he's missing a lot of equally good or better ones............Young Mfg., Rubber City Armory, JP & Radian just to name a few.

MM

Equally good or better? Where are you getting your data? Please provide it when you get a chance.

 

[MontanaMan]

From using all of them mentioned & discussion with others who also have used them & from industry sources.

Young makes all the BCG's in house & offers chromium plated, nitrided & manganese phosphated bolts & carriers; they also offer several versions depending on fit of carrier to upper, weight & also offer the HMB bolt version (designed by HM Defense) with a blind cam pin hole for added strength.

RCA also makes several versions in house for both small & large frames, including titanium & with optional adjustable gas keys. Their nitriding process is beyond slick, & they do lots of nitriding for other AR parts manufacturers such as LMT, & they supply complete BCG's for other suppliers, namely Noveske.

You might be familiar with the guy here who posts under the screen name of "Padom" & who has done numerous technical & shooting reviews.............he's a living testament for RCA's BCG's.

JP's reputation speaks for itself & their nitrided & polished stainless carriers with their DLC/PVD bolts are impeccable.

Radians are highly finished nitrided BCG's & are extremely slick in operation with good carrier support features & are used in their own line of high end guns. I do not know if they are fully produced in house or not.

Nothing wrong with the BCG's mentioned in your post, but they simply are several of many top line producers today & I guess I would ask why anyone wound choose to use a phosphated carrier & bolt given today's options for other equally good or better products with slicker & more durable finishes, especially for easier cleaning of the bolt stem.

I've dealt personally in manufacturing & product use & design with all of the coatings mentioned above along with both manganese & zinc phosphate & phosphate offers zero wear resistance, no inherent lubricity past the first few minutes of operation, (only the oil that they hold), is strictly cosmetic but does provide some level of rust protection against rust on the base material.

Again, there's nothing wrong with phosphate & I have several guns with phosphate BCG's, but that's an outdated coating in today's world of simply better coatings from all aspects.

Given equivalent machining & base materials, higher level & more sophisticated coatings & their better wear resistance & reduced coefficients of friction, choosing one of them should be a no-brainer for most people except for those not wanting to pay a somewhat higher cost.

Just being Mil-Spec doesn't necessarily mean "better" or 'best".

Lots of people have a different perspective, YMMV.

MM

 

[TonyTheTiger]

I've wondered this myself. I've read on forums that sionics makes these brands, and toolcraft makes these, and so without any proof. Not saying they are wrong but a lot of what I see on forums is just regurgitation from a different thread on the same subject. But I believe (again speculation) that quite a few BCG manufacturers make their own and they say so on their websites. Or they take sionics and toolcraft and beef them up. However, cryptic coatings makes thiers in house and sometimes outsources to toolcraft according to the email I received from them. So you can check them off the list.

Whoever makes the Cryptic low mass BCG's also makes them for Brownells, but they sell for half. I don't care what the coatings are, they aren't worth paying $300 for a $130 BCG.

 

[Dildobaggins]

Whoever makes the Cryptic low mass BCG's also makes them for Brownells, but they sell for half. I don't care what the coatings are, they aren't worth paying $300 for a $130 BCG.

I'd have to agree. they were just too pricey for me. They look awesome though, but I went with a SOLGW BCG and I'm happy with it.