Cupronickel, that is not a typo.

[Andrew Blubaugh]

Looking for some input on some ammo I was looking at. It is not intended for a precision rifle but more for a 308 carbine/battle rifle. The following is a cut/paste job from the website....

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Dynamit-Noble (GERMAN) - NATO 7.62 x 51mm 147 GRAIN
FMJBT BALL - BRASS CASE - BERDAN PRIMED
NON-CORROSIVE - LEAD CORE

Full metal jacket boattail bullet. Brass-cased, berdan-primed and non-reloadable. Non-corrosive. DAG headstamp (Dynamit Nobel) 1990's production.</div></div>

Here is a description of the jacket material...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Cupronickel: (sometimes incorrectly written as "Cupernickel" or "Coppernickel") is an alloy of copper that contains nickel and strengthening elements, such as iron and manganese. It is highly resistant to corrosion in seawater, because its electrode potential is adjusted to be neutral with regard to seawater. Because of this, it is used for piping, heat exchangers and condensers in seawater systems as well as marine hardware, and sometimes for the propellers, crankshafts and hulls of premium tugboats, fishing boats and other working boats. A more familiar common use is in silver-coloured modern circulation coins. A typical mix is 75% copper, 25% nickel, and a trace amount of Manganese. In the past true silver coins were debased with cupronickel. Despite high copper content, the color of cupro-nickel remarkably is silver.
</div></div>

Just curious if there are any reasons I should avoid this ammo? Price seems pretty good. Thoughts? Concerns??

 

[bark-eater]

Re: Cupronickel, that is not a typo.

Sounds like Monel. Its as I remember a "harder" metal than copper.

 

[UNCIVILIZED]

Re: Cupronickel, that is not a typo.

It depends on what the mix of metals in the alloy are. It may be Monel, or a close cousin there to, which is known for it's durability/corrosion resistance, but has a few "interesting" qualities which I'm not certain would make it great for slugs.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monel
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cupronickel
http://www.matweb.com/

Thus some research may be in order. Although I'm guessing that a company wouldn't mass produce slugs out of it if it were a horrid item to use. The big question is will it compress to conform to your bore similarly to a standard copper jacket. Such has been known to happen with some other "non-typical" rifle bullets, even real high end, pricey ones.

 

[SRT_Supply]

Re: Cupronickel, that is not a typo.

IIRC, cupro-nickel projectiles were widely used at the turn of the century, and up until WWII or later (not quite positive on exactly when they were discontinued).

 

[Andrew Blubaugh]

Re: Cupronickel, that is not a typo.

My biggest concern is, will the ammo have any negative effects on a weapon, like excessive wear etc???

 

[Johnsusername]

Re: Cupronickel, that is not a typo.

From the wiki article.
"Beginning around the turn of the 20th century, bullet jackets were commonly made from this material. It was soon replaced with gilding metal to reduce metal fouling in the bore."

John

 

[UNCIVILIZED]

Re: Cupronickel, that is not a typo.

Do a bit of metallurgy googling + studying, & or talk to your smith & a few ammo manufacturers. But if you're that stressed about it by some other fodder. Odds are barrel makers would have some insight into this as well.

 

[glock63]

Re: Cupronickel, that is not a typo.

Thats some of the most accurate 7.62 surplus available, and will not cause undue wear. Shoots nearly as good as FGMM in my M1A.

 

[UNCIVILIZED]

Re: Cupronickel, that is not a typo.

Guys, sorry if I was a touch cranky earlier. One of "those" days, & it just keeps on going too. Ugh.

That said, on fodder, I kind of figure unless one's shooting say an inexpensive self loader, risking a good barrel isn't worth $100-$300 saved per 1k rounds. Kind of a false economy, IMO, given the costs of rebarrelling & also down time associated with such maintance.
Plus the annoyance of figuring out both the dope for, & "temperment"/finickyness of a new tube. In addition working up the new loads for same.

 

[SRT_Supply]

Re: Cupronickel, that is not a typo.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Grounds Keeper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Guys, sorry if I was a touch cranky earlier. One of "those" days, & it just keeps on going too. Ugh.

That said, on fodder, I kind of figure unless one's shooting say an inexpensive self loader, risking a good barrel isn't worth $100-$300 saved per 1k rounds. Kind of a false economy, IMO, given the costs of rebarrelling & also down time associated with such maintance.
Plus the annoyance of figuring out both the dope for, & "temperment"/finickyness of a new tube. In addition working up the new loads for same. </div></div>

It all depends.

If we assume a "normal" factory .308 load to be running $1/round, and some surplus ammo becomes available for $.50/round, then we're saving $500 per case.

How much can it influence the life of the barrel?

If the original barrel life, with standard factory loads, was 5000 rounds, and instead surplus ammo gets put through it instead and cuts the useful life of the barrel in half, we've lost 2500 rounds of potentially-useful barrel life, but we've saved $1,250 in the process.

Does a new barrel for your given rifle cost less than $1,250 installed?

 

[Grump]

Re: Cupronickel, that is not a typo.

FINALLY someone who knows the history of smokeless ammo! Steve speaks true. More below. <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Steven Dzupin</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You may experience extreme metal fouling with Cupronickel jacket material.

Kings Norton Solution was used before WW1 to clean the metal fouling out of barrels.

Kings Norton is based on Druggist Ammonia 28% + other

Ammonia compounds.

Used incorrectly,it will hurt your pipes

See Hatchers Note Book !

Regards,

Steve </div></div>
Yes, my sources (multiple, including NRA data and eyewitnesses who saw the stuff) indicate that the US fought WWI with silver-colored bullets in the then-relatively new .30-06. This was before M2 Ball (most of which had soft iron jackets with gilding metal or copper plating), this was even before M1 Ball.

Trust us, those "harder" jackets will do nothing harmful to your barrel as far as wear goes.

The metal fouling, however, was often described in bad cases as "lumpy", whatever that means. Accuracy was reputed to drop off after as few as 100 rounds.

Now if the price is right and that stuff is accurate, I would gladly shoot it and clean between sessions. Think of it as a way to save money, spend a little more quality non-shooting time with your rifle, and have multiple chances to study your CCB zero as compared to your CDB zero...if there really is a difference.

 

[Andrew Blubaugh]

Re: Cupronickel, that is not a typo.

The metal fouling, however, was often described in bad cases as "lumpy", whatever that means. Accuracy was reputed to drop off after as few as 100 rounds.

That is the info I am interested in. Thanks

 

[mocos]

Re: Cupronickel, that is not a typo.

I recently bought a case of the ammo...dynamit noble....googled cupronickel and came up with essentially: ...as some of the previous posts to its origin and use was already iterated yada yada....my interest was regarding the "lumpy" stuff..
It appears that after using the rounds and then subsequently cleaning the barrel....the copper is removed with whatever solvent is used but the nickel is/was not and remained in the bore..and there was some chemical reaction from the cleaning procedure which made the remaining nickel deposit hydroscopic thus after some period of time would become rust blisters.... the article went on to indicate that corrosive primers may have had something to do with it. This is where I stopped researching the subject and assumed that since the ammo that I purchased was manufactured many years after WWI & II that what ever it was...was taken care of...so off the range I went to try some.....with some reservations as I only fired 3 rds at 50yds through a m70 featherweight....all three rds were touching.....so it shoots ok...went home and cleaned it with everything I had on the shelf......now I need to find out what removes nickel.....before I shoot anymore.

does this "fouling" occur in a stainless barrel..if not, problem solved??

I hope someone out there with more expertise and knowledge can fill in the gaps in my info....

 

[SRT_Supply]

Re: Cupronickel, that is not a typo.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I went to try some.....with some reservations as I only fired 3 rds at 50yds through a m70 featherweight....all three rds were touching.....so it shoots ok...went home and cleaned it with everything I had on the shelf......now I need to find out what removes nickel.....before I shoot anymore.</div></div>

But did your cleaning regimen work at removing the nickel fouling? Did you check to see if there was any still left in the bore? If it's out, then I wouldn't worry about it.

 

[mocos]

Re: Cupronickel, that is not a typo.

the bore "looks' clean...I wouldn't know what nickel fouling would look like...short of using jb abrasive...I used hoppe's, an ammoniated cleaner and bore tech...nylon brush etc ...and the patches came out clean....so?? what chemical would turn nickel deposits into some color that would show up on a patch?

anyway...I will make the assumption the dynamit nobel got it to the point that the "lumpy fouling" was not an issue anymore for whatever reason...and "normal"cleaning would suffice.

also....can't be much of an issue because if it were..this thread would be inundated with experienced answers....

or...this is news to everybody???

 

[XOR]

Re: Cupronickel, that is not a typo.

It's high quality German ammo. I shoot it in several guns. Last weekend we used it to engage 12" ar500 steel plates at 600 yards. It is consistent and accurate. It is also recent manufacture in sealed battle packs. It is not corrosive. I am not a metrallurgist, however this is German ammo. The Germans know a thing or two about guns so I've been told.

I will continue to shoot the ammo unless I see some hard evidence against it.

Btw. This ammo will stick to a magnet. I do not think it is steel core as it is not damaging my steel plates. However some places may not like you shooting it if they think it is magnetic. I need to cut open a round and see what's inside but if anyone has the scoop please let me know.

 

[THibben]

Re: Cupronickel, that is not a typo.

Andrew,

We run a lot of MilSurp ammo in the UK due to club rifles being 308. The DAG & MEN German ammo is very accurate and has been one of the main supplies for a while here. There has been no evidence of excessive barral wear or difficulty of cleaning (I end up cleaning club rifles - deep joy ) The MEN is made by GECO I beleive.

Buy and enjoy!

Brgds English

 

[bfoosh006]

Re: Cupronickel, that is not a typo.

This is post backwards....( my question to Norma about this type of bullet jacket material is toward the bottom)

Dear B_ _ _ ,

Yes we made in “old days” nickel coated steel jacket bullets and also the military cartridges was made in the same way.

My personal opinion in this case is for the average hunter shooter it’s without bigger different and also if it should worn out the barrel so quickly

In case of that the army couldn’t use it. An other thing is the fouling, with cupper jackets this isn’t by far away the same with nickel coated jackets.

THE BARREL LOOKS CLEAN WHEN USING NICKEL COATED BULLETS and this is very imported for the accuracy.

I can’t give any numbers off the life time for a barrel whose just has been used with nickel coated bullets vs. a cupper jacket one,

But I have a feeling of that the copper coated bullets use in a barrel will shoot some more rounds.

Today we have additive’s in the powder for anti fouling and in same time works also as a lubricant, with good results.

So with this in mind I will say it doesn’t madder what you use as a regular hunter, if you are a competitor shooter

with many thousands round each year it can be something to think of.



I hope I give you answer to your questions.



Bests Åke Nilsson R&D-dep.










--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Till: [email protected]
Ämne: Cupronickel jackets



Greetings from the other side of the world !

There has been a great deal of discussion about cupronickel jacketed bullets, on some of the firearms forums. The question that no seems to be able to answer is whether cupronickel jackets will wear out your rifle bore faster then guilded copper jackets. Also is there any special bore-cleaning needed for the cupronickel jacketed bullets.

As Norma is one of the oldest ammo companies I'm aware of , I'd like to think that Norma has expertise in this matter, as well as honest answers.



So, If you could be so kind as to send me an answer, I would greatly appreciate it.

END


I've got it posted back-aswards....but this was Normas response to my question.

 

[AXEMAN]

Re: Cupronickel, that is not a typo.

do the HK or G3 or even CETME have the same type of rifling as the pistols? its the polygonal isnt it? in the pistols at least right? taking that into account this bullet may not have the fouling issues it would in standard rifling. just a thought. its german ammo right? built to nato spec. but still to be used by guys with G3s? eh, maybe its all those robitussin shots

 

[AUJohn]

Re: Cupronickel, that is not a typo.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: AXEMAN</div><div class="ubbcode-body">do the HK or G3 or even CETME have the same type of rifling as the pistols? its the polygonal isnt it? in the pistols at least right? taking that into account this bullet may not have the fouling issues it would in standard rifling. just a thought. its german ammo right? built to nato spec. but still to be used by guys with G3s? eh, maybe its all those robitussin shots </div></div>

Not relevant. Microscopic fouling is the problem. Getting small rust pits under the fouling which build over time. Flakes of fouling would then come off and all of a sudden your nice looking bore is full of pits. While rifling type might affect how it fouls, how bad and accuracy it does not change the issue here. We can't make assumptions about Mil use and think it flows over to what we do.

 

[bfoosh006]

Re: Cupronickel, that is not a typo.

Just an FYI... http://www.cybershooters.org/swiss_ammunition_enterprise.htm

 

[bfoosh006]

Re: Cupronickel, that is not a typo.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SRT Supply</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Grounds Keeper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Guys, sorry if I was a touch cranky earlier. One of "those" days, & it just keeps on going too. Ugh.

That said, on fodder, I kind of figure unless one's shooting say an inexpensive self loader, risking a good barrel isn't worth $100-$300 saved per 1k rounds. Kind of a false economy, IMO, given the costs of rebarrelling & also down time associated with such maintance.
Plus the annoyance of figuring out both the dope for, & "temperment"/finickyness of a new tube. In addition working up the new loads for same. </div></div>

It all depends.

If we assume a "normal" factory .308 load to be running $1/round, and some surplus ammo becomes available for $.50/round, then we're saving $500 per case.

How much can it influence the life of the barrel?

If the original barrel life, with standard factory loads, was 5000 rounds, and instead surplus ammo gets put through it instead and cuts the useful life of the barrel in half, we've lost 2500 rounds of potentially-useful barrel life, but we've saved $1,250 in the process.

Does a new barrel for your given rifle cost less than $1,250 installed? </div></div>

SRT Supply....
That is the best arguement yet, that I have heard for using cupro-nickeel jacketed bullets. While my concern was mostly about barrel fouling, not barrel wear,You may have changed my mind on the DAG. Thank you for pointing out the true "effect" of the DAG surplus...sometimes a different perspective is all that is needed.