Previously owned 3 Surgeons (591 Short Action) from Prague OK. Looking for thoughts from owners of both on how current Surgeon actions compare with Accuracy International actions? Previous Surgeons were trouble free and built like a tank. No experience with AI. Thanks.
Current Surgeon vs AI Action
- Thread starter Milspec Longhorn
- Start date
The biggest difference was the bolt throw and swept handle. I’ve yet to have either one fail on me.
Life’s short, get both!
Life’s short, get both!
Own a Prague, OK Surgeon and an AI.
I'd base my choice on which one suited your needs or wants more, and be pretty content with what you ended up with.
I'd base my choice on which one suited your needs or wants more, and be pretty content with what you ended up with.
Thanks. Are the extractors different? Wondering if the Rem footprint would have wider selection of triggers, chassis, barrels?
If you want a wide selection of aftermarket stuff, I'd go Impact (think kind of a modernized Surgeon IMO). Tons of support for them.
AI and Surgeon are completely different. The newer Surgeons are no different then the old OK ones. Each Surgeon I’ve measured was easily within a .0005” in bolt face to receiver face from each other. I’d say for a Remington clone action they’re still a tank and really no different then other Remington clones like them, except for some features. AI actions aren’t even close to being similar though. Those actions are real tanks. You’re stuck to the AI platform though.
More after market choices with surgeon such triggers and stocks . Some AI have the avaliablity to run AW mags have not seen many AI triggers fail. Ive had both sold my AI and kept my surgeon will never get rid of the OG . Also ive seen a few post of Prestons new action is in the works!
I have a Surgeon action on my TacOps. I'm not sure where it was built, but it is pretty new. I also own 2 AIs. The Surgeon action works very well. It is easy to cycle compared to the AI actions. The rifle is extremely accurate. I am not sure I can attribute it to the action entirely. Using a Surgeon gives you a huge ecosystem of parts to choose from.
The Surgeon is not what I would consider if you are looking for ultimate reliability and durability under harsh conditions. The AI is built like a tank and is designed to work consistently despite the environment. It is a six-lug design instead of a two-lug lug. Lock-up is much more solid, which is why it is stiffer when cycling. The AI is proof-tested at an insane chamber pressure. There used to be a video of the testing at AI where the action was subjected to pressures as high as 120,000 psi without damage. I have shot my AIs in horrific conditions, including rain, snow, dust, heat, and cold. It functions the same. The issue to some is that the AI locks you into AI. This is true. You can't buy an AI action without buying the rifle.
They are different actions built for very different use cases.
Hope this helps. I don't think you can go wrong with either. You have to be sure of your use case to pick properly.
The Surgeon is not what I would consider if you are looking for ultimate reliability and durability under harsh conditions. The AI is built like a tank and is designed to work consistently despite the environment. It is a six-lug design instead of a two-lug lug. Lock-up is much more solid, which is why it is stiffer when cycling. The AI is proof-tested at an insane chamber pressure. There used to be a video of the testing at AI where the action was subjected to pressures as high as 120,000 psi without damage. I have shot my AIs in horrific conditions, including rain, snow, dust, heat, and cold. It functions the same. The issue to some is that the AI locks you into AI. This is true. You can't buy an AI action without buying the rifle.
They are different actions built for very different use cases.
Hope this helps. I don't think you can go wrong with either. You have to be sure of your use case to pick properly.
Thanks. I was also wondering if the current Surgeon Actions are the same quality as the OG Prague, OK actions. Had heard some rumblings about this?
The current actions are still made very well. They were for many years just made in separate places and assembled together...which some might find off-putting. I do not know if this will continue now with the move to TX.
I know a guy who did the bolts for them here in OK while the company was based out of AZ (?). His shop, CNC machines, and work are absolutely top notch. No way was somebody getting an inferior part.
I don't want to start a shit storm beyond this because of my mouth running essentially hearsay. I'm just a dude who is a consumer, and have been fortunate to talk with a few guys in the manufacturing process. Therefore my knowledge is limited.
Some fantastic gunsmiths with a lot of renown have used Surgeon actions for many years. I trust their opinions.
I would put a properly built rifle with a surgeon action ahead of a factory AI gun when it comes to reliability. I don't buy the hype because I have seen a ton of each over the years.
I have seen more AI's go down at matches and on the line than surgeon/impacts. Impact is just the evolution of the surgeon.
IMO unless you are an institution who needs fleet rifles with big pockets then AI is rarely the right solution to a problem. You can get a better gun for less money and not be stuck with a weird/expensive/hard to source ecosystem like AI. Not to mention they change their guns every year and you can never keep up. For an individual user, they are a poor purchase IMO.
Surgeon/Impact/ Lone Peak are beyond reproach when it comes to shooting in harsh conditions. Snow, Rain, Sand, Dust..... They just keep running. Its why they are so popular for field competitive shooters.
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Just buy an impact. Its a product improved Surgeon. Slap a TT or Bix trigger on there, screw on a barrel and drop into the chassis of your choice
Surgeon as a company has been bough and sold and it would be foolish to invest with them. Who knows what their future looks like.
You can buy a new impact supported by some of the best guys in the industry. There is no shortage of high quality prefit barrels from top smiths using Bartlien, CRB (used to be hawk hill) and Krieger blanks. The days of needing a gunsmith and long waits for barrel work is over. In less than a week you can have a rifle put together by yourself that shoots as well as any of those customs back in the day.
And if for some reason you dont want a impact, buy a lone peak, which is essentially the Mormon Impact. And the great thing is they use the same tenon so you can swap barrels between impacts, lone peaks and a surgeon (double check to make sure, but "should" work).
My first custom gun was built on a 2016 Surgeon action with a Bartlein barrel by Southern Precision. It was a 20" 308 and part of me regrets selling it, I just never shot 308. It would consistently group 1/3" MOA and I could shoot 1/2" groups at 200yds with it. It was a tank.
I also own an ATX. As others have said, stiffer to cycle. I don't compete in PRS and would consider myself a practical application shooter. So the tradeoff for the bolt lift in return for legendary reliability appeals to me. I think the ATX chassis is the best out there. It manages recoil very differently, IMO, from every other chassis and stock I have used. Enough that I put an R700 pattern rifle into the chassis to match the ATX.
I wouldn't hesitate to run a Surgeon again, but being able to switch barrels is where it is at. You can pick up a new or lightly used AI barrel for $400-600 and not have to deal with a new stock and glass to change calibers. So if you want to run an 18" 6.5 and then toss in a 22" 308, it is a huge cost savings.
If you want the R700 footprint, go with an action that has a set screw so you can spin a prefit on and tighten the screw, similar to the AI. It is much more convenient than pulling the action and tossing everything into a barrel vice. Worth the extra cost.
I also own an ATX. As others have said, stiffer to cycle. I don't compete in PRS and would consider myself a practical application shooter. So the tradeoff for the bolt lift in return for legendary reliability appeals to me. I think the ATX chassis is the best out there. It manages recoil very differently, IMO, from every other chassis and stock I have used. Enough that I put an R700 pattern rifle into the chassis to match the ATX.
I wouldn't hesitate to run a Surgeon again, but being able to switch barrels is where it is at. You can pick up a new or lightly used AI barrel for $400-600 and not have to deal with a new stock and glass to change calibers. So if you want to run an 18" 6.5 and then toss in a 22" 308, it is a huge cost savings.
If you want the R700 footprint, go with an action that has a set screw so you can spin a prefit on and tighten the screw, similar to the AI. It is much more convenient than pulling the action and tossing everything into a barrel vice. Worth the extra cost.
So to have Surgeon with ability to switch barrels what would that entail? I know Surgeon did it back in the day with their CSR?
Lololol, I've never heard that one before but now I won't be able to get it out of my head.
OP - Agree that Impact is the better choice compared to the Surgeon, it's essentially the modern evolution.
I got a newer manufacturing Surgeon action 3-4 years ago, it was nice and well made, and it headspaced perfectly to Impact prefits. I'm sure it remains a fine option today but I would prefer Impact for both the action and the people side of the equation.
Owning both, I really prefer the aesthetics and throw of my AI over my Surgeon. Also, the QC barrel feature of the AI is awesome.
That being said, I also spend a lot of time in the AI picture thread seeing guys show off their spare bolts and parts like they were gold...because they are...because you're screwed if you need a replacement part quickly (and relatively cheaply).
I think that it would be less of a concern if I were big military. However, being an end-user civilian, I'd rather run a Surgeon action on my theoretical "end of the world" bolt gun (and I'd be running a large frame AR instead anyway). The reason being that replacement stuff is generally much more readily available.
Just me. I'm blessed to own both. I like both. I won't sell either.
That being said, I also spend a lot of time in the AI picture thread seeing guys show off their spare bolts and parts like they were gold...because they are...because you're screwed if you need a replacement part quickly (and relatively cheaply).
I think that it would be less of a concern if I were big military. However, being an end-user civilian, I'd rather run a Surgeon action on my theoretical "end of the world" bolt gun (and I'd be running a large frame AR instead anyway). The reason being that replacement stuff is generally much more readily available.
Just me. I'm blessed to own both. I like both. I won't sell either.
Thanks - but to have switch barrel option like AI - what would be involved with Surgeon or Impact or Lone Peak?
Surgeons were ahead of their time. They were the first real "prefit" action before we really even used the term.
The actions are headspace controlled within about .001", so barrels can be made from a print and "should" fit all surgeons.
When you hear the term prefit, it just means the action is made to a tolerance that is repeatable to a print so you dont need a gunsmith to fit the barrel in the traditional way.
But as I said earlier, unless you already have the surgeon action, you are much better off today buying an impact or lone peak. Its an improved surgeon action with much better support and barrel options.
In order to switch barrels you need a barrel vise, action wrench, breaker bar, impact socket for the action wrench and a torque wrench. All you do is pop one barrel off and spin another one on. Then torque the barrel down to 30-100 ft lbs and you are golden. Some guys dont even torque the barrel, just hand tighten it. I have seen to many barrels spinning at matches and guys loosing points to ever play that game, so i always suggest to torque a barrel on.
I actually learned that trick from you Buddy. When You told me you swapped barrels between your lone peak and impacts my mind was blown
All you need is a barrel vice and action wrench. It takes about 10 minutes to do this once you're set up. It takes about 90 seconds with the AI.
My Surgeon is set up with multiple barrels.
It really depends what you define as a switch barrel. All actions are switch barrel with the right tools.
To have something like an AI where you pop out some screws and twist off the barrel your options are more limited. Terminus Zuess can do that but the reality is, almost NO one uses that feature. The need to switch barrels in the field is really overrated, even from a deployed armorer point of view.
I ended up building a trailer hitch mounted barrel vise so I can swap barrels when at the range. I have used it a grand total of 0 times in the last 3 years, and I shoot pretty damn often.
OK. Thanks. Wasn't planning on switching barrel is the field. Just wanted to easily change from say a .308 to 6.5 when I wanted to
Easy enough with a shouldered barrel - but not the same as an AI.
As others have pointed out, it takes a few tools and a bench mounted vice, along with some time, to change shouldered barrels. I do it somewhat regularly on one of my rifles, it only takes about 5 min. But it does require the proper setup.
The AI is a much simpler process. I believe it's all done with a single allen key. And it doesn't require a barrel vice. As long as you have that Allen key, you can change an AI barrel anywhere. At home. At the range. At your favorite restaurant.
I think it's important to point out that distinction.
To answer your original question, they are very different rifles.
The Surgeon is like many other R700 "custom" actions. It's a good action, and you can build your rifle up how you desire. If you like Surgeons, build on a Surgeon - though Impacts and Lone Peaks are certainly worth a look too if you are interested in a Surgeon.
With an AI, you are buying a complete system. Every component was designed specifically for that system, and to do so in fairly extreme environments. It's also "one size fits most" - it comes as it is, love it or leave it.
You can certainly make a custom run as reliably as an AI, that's not difficult to do, but definitely takes some thought. With an AI you have the benefit of the engineers and product designers having learned all those lessons through the past decades. Built a custom rifle on a chassis with a hundred carbon steel fasteners - good luck in the rain. AI has already dealt/thought of that.
The AI being a complete system is both full of positives and negatives. And that's why it's so hard to compare the two, they are so different.
The AI has a pretty stout bolt lift. The trigger is what it is. You may or may not get along with the grip - but if you are using an AT-X/C, you can change that to any AR-15 grip on the market.
If you have very specific preferences in regards to trigger specs, how your actions feels, availability of customer service and parts - you would likely benefit going the custom route. If you want a rifle that's a complete system and an iteration of decades of previous rifles designed for hard use in extreme environments - get an AI.
The Surgeon is like many other R700 "custom" actions. It's a good action, and you can build your rifle up how you desire. If you like Surgeons, build on a Surgeon - though Impacts and Lone Peaks are certainly worth a look too if you are interested in a Surgeon.
With an AI, you are buying a complete system. Every component was designed specifically for that system, and to do so in fairly extreme environments. It's also "one size fits most" - it comes as it is, love it or leave it.
You can certainly make a custom run as reliably as an AI, that's not difficult to do, but definitely takes some thought. With an AI you have the benefit of the engineers and product designers having learned all those lessons through the past decades. Built a custom rifle on a chassis with a hundred carbon steel fasteners - good luck in the rain. AI has already dealt/thought of that.
The AI being a complete system is both full of positives and negatives. And that's why it's so hard to compare the two, they are so different.
The AI has a pretty stout bolt lift. The trigger is what it is. You may or may not get along with the grip - but if you are using an AT-X/C, you can change that to any AR-15 grip on the market.
If you have very specific preferences in regards to trigger specs, how your actions feels, availability of customer service and parts - you would likely benefit going the custom route. If you want a rifle that's a complete system and an iteration of decades of previous rifles designed for hard use in extreme environments - get an AI.
Thanks. Very good points. Someone mentioned I should also consider the new BAT Hammerhead action? Seems relatively new so not much reliability history?
Man, you're going to start chasing rabbit holes until you end up with paralysis by analysis.
I'd take a look at your original Surgeon and AI choices, and decide if you want to build or buy your next rifle. That alone should narrow it down pretty quickly on what your next step should be.
Nothing listed in this thread is a piece of junk, and all will serve you well.
When you get a few years under your belt with that rifle and can afford/want more...then just buy the other later on.
I really do not remain convinced that on a statistically-relevant large sample of rifles throughout field conditions, ANY Remington 700-based rifle has higher mean rounds before failure than an AI. I can accept several reasons to choose a surgeon/impact over an AI, just as there are several reasons to do the reverse, but I do not think that reliability through environmental stressors is one of them.
Why? Feelings? Hype? Price?
I have seen numerous AI go down over the last few years. I haven't seen an impact or lone peak. And there are probably 50 of them for every AI.
Hell I carry a spare firing assembly and trigger in my match bag. It's just extra weight at this point.
How many gens are we on now with the AT-x? 4? 5?. Just came out a few years ago. Impact is just about unchanged since 2018 or sometime and just keeps running. I guess the engineers and people at AI aren't as smart as people think. They need to revise the gun every year.
This response is not intended to be snarky.
The history of the guy who started Impact shows that he tried to improve on what he was working with when he was employed at Surgeon in OK. You'll definitely see a lot of a Surgeon in an Impact.
I'd include the trigger hanger as a potential "update" as well as the nitride finish, small firing pin on the short actions (Surgeon is probably doing this now too), and options to run AW mags and a 75 degree bolt if you wanted to. Plus everybody and their brother cuts prefit barrels now for an Impact.
It's just like buying the same vehicle, but 15 years apart. One isn't necessarily better than the other, but one has had the opportunity to have more standard features due to market trends.
And I say this owning a Surgeon, and not an Impact.
From what I remember, a lot of the gen changes in the atx were chassis changes. Could be wrong though. The base action in the atx has been around a long time until the atxc.
I have both an impact and AIs. My match rifle is an impact because shooting a foundation stock is just pure fun. I can also use a truck axle on the foundation where it gets a little tight in an atx chassis.
Perhaps I am shooting the wrong matches, but every PRS/Outlaw match I’ve shot has been very “easy” on gear environmentally. Something like mammoth/NASTI where there is a greater physical component closer to “field” use is not the same as barricade benchrest.
What failures are you seeing deadlining AIs with such high frequencies that are not causing failures in other guns?
Thanks to everyone for the great info. Seems both are used in matches...but seems perhaps Surgeon/Impact are much more common - perhaps due to customization options? But from what I have gathered it seems AI could offer easier barrel changes if that were important - but Impact could possibly have more prefit barrels available? Little worrying though if AI's actually "go down" more often as was indicated and the gen changes as indicated compared to Surgeon/Impact.
Most of the failures with the AI came from earlier ATX introductions with the competition trigger. Which were sorted out fairly quick and when adjusted properly are basically non existent today. The comp triggers were also available and people put those in place of factory triggers and ran into issues
The other issues is when AI decided to enter the PRS game they took a military sniper rifle and tried to appease prs guys. Who immediately wanted to weight the rifle down and run oddball (at least then) 6mm and what not cartridges which the mag/action wasn’t designed around. Hence the feeding issues and mag follower modifications
When used as the AI was designed in the calibers it was designed for there’s no issue. It’s trying to make it a prs game gun where the issues came from
As for the ATX generation changes it was changes to the chassis itself. Some upgrades to the screws holding the chassis together for disassembly in first gens then added thumb screws for LOP and cheek riser adjustment for gen 3. They make a aics chassis that probably fits the surgeon and likely sees the same changes as the real AI in terms of those gen upgrades
As for the action itself which is what the actual comparison is here the action in the ATX is the same as the action used in the AT/AX which has been around since 2013 when the quickloc feature was added. This action is based off the iconic AW action which earned AI’s reputation to begin with
The ATX added the comp trigger and unbonded chassis to the mix.
Comparing action to action the AI is the oldest design of the three from the 80’s and likely the most proven reliable in harsh conditions since it has an actual track record.
I think AI’s would make crap prs guns personally. And I own several. It’s not the rifle I’d build or buy for a prs match gun. But that’s not what it’s designed for and I understand that.
It wasn’t until the recent introduction of the AXSR and eventually the ATXC where the actions were redesigned. The ATXC is the best suited for PRS of the bunch but comes at a hefty price point compared to an impact setup.
Otherwise just from a reliability standpoint the AT/AX/ATX and AXMC are just branches off the old reliable AW and AWM which has been around for 5 decades and many of those AW/AWM’s are still in service and circulation today
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If you’re going to buy it and leave as is and say you only plan to run a 6.5CM and 308 then AI will serve you very well.
If you like to swap around chassis then AI is definitely not for you. The newer models are a bit better. Otherwise you’re stuck with the chassis and grip angle especially in regards to anything pre ATX. Same for triggers. You won’t be throwing a TT diamond in the AI. I love AI two stage triggers but there’s little you can do to modify them. So if you want a single stage 6 oz trigger the R700 platform is better
Also you won’t find just an AI action. So you’re buying a compete rifle here. I personally could take a nap on the thumbhole of my AT’s and it’s the best fitting chassis I have and prefer them to my MPA/MDT chassis I have. But it’s something you may want to try if you can before you buy. The ATX/ATXC are much like a MDT ACC or MPA Comp in comparison
Barrels for AI can be spun up by any reputable smith. Chambered however you want just like the impact or surgeon. You don’t send anything in you just call Manzella, black canyon customs, short action precision etc and order the barrel. They don’t need the action which I believe is the same with most modern R700 pattern actions as well mentioned here
The barrel swap is a single Allen screw. Unscrew 2 turns, unscrew the barrel, screw in new barrel hand tight and torque the Allen screw to 49 inch lbs. The RTZ is very repeatable and there’s not a simpler system that I’ve seen out there. No wrench, no vise etc.
In the AX/ATX stocks the Allen wrench rides inside the cheek piece. So although you may not swap barrels in the field you could essentially pull it off at any moment if needed. I remove mine to clean and I’ll swap on the range when load testing etc. This allows me to shoot my current barrel, pull it, install new one, load test on that barrel and then swap back to my current barrel.
If you stick to 6mm/6.5/308 there’s plenty of take off barrels in the sale section here for $600 - $700 which would serve most people very well as the factory win tac barrels for the most part are bartleins
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If you have an itch to buy an AI then buy it. It won't go away.
I played with a hammerhead and didn't think it offered anything over an impact, especially for the price increase.
As mentioned you will get an AI and that's what you will get long term. The 700 based rifles you can do absolutely anything to 900 different ways. I've seen more people than I can count hinder their shooting performance swapping parts every other day trying to find something better instead of sticking with a setup and learning it. For certain paralysis by analysis.
I took my AT and 3 barrels to the range and did load development in 2 hours on all 3. No tools needed, just knowledge on the zero shift between calibers. I built guns to be switchbarrel in the past but none are as easy at the range as the AI.
If you are looking for prs and shooting far out with plans to hunt you will definitely end up with 2 guns regardless of which path you pick in the end. May be a year or a few down the road but it will happen.
I played with a hammerhead and didn't think it offered anything over an impact, especially for the price increase.
As mentioned you will get an AI and that's what you will get long term. The 700 based rifles you can do absolutely anything to 900 different ways. I've seen more people than I can count hinder their shooting performance swapping parts every other day trying to find something better instead of sticking with a setup and learning it. For certain paralysis by analysis.
I took my AT and 3 barrels to the range and did load development in 2 hours on all 3. No tools needed, just knowledge on the zero shift between calibers. I built guns to be switchbarrel in the past but none are as easy at the range as the AI.
If you are looking for prs and shooting far out with plans to hunt you will definitely end up with 2 guns regardless of which path you pick in the end. May be a year or a few down the road but it will happen.
Wow. Extensive rundown on AI. Thanks. Any issues with parts availability for previous versions since AI has moved to newer models? Seems that is not an issue with Surgeon/Impact?
PRS is turning into a niche sport. "Custom" rifles are certainly more adaptable to thrive in the contrived conditions of PRS.
AI's aren't great PRS rifles, if that's your focus. AI's are designed and built around the application of precision shooting in extreme environments, typically in service of LE and military applications. The AT-X/C is geared more towards PRS, but still with the heritage of a rifle built with other applications in mind.
PRS rifles are starting to get really specialized and niche. They are turning into USPSA open pistols. They are rifles that are built and optimized to excel in the very specific and contrived environments of a PRS match.
Honestly, I wouldn't worry about having a rifle optimized for PRS if you currently aren't shooting PRS. Plenty of people shoot AIs successfully in PRS - if you get an AI, I promise you that the AI won't be the limiting factor if you start shooting PRS. It will be YOU.
I also wouldn't worry about AIs reliability in PRS matches. I've also seen failures with AIs, but also every other rifle. Impacts fail too. Everything eventually does. DBD is being a bit hyperbolic. But all the rifles we make these days are more than reliable enough for most purposes, including PRS.
Parts for USA based rifles will almost always be more available than their European counterparts. CS will be better too.
True.
I disagree.
I have been documenting headspace on every action I barrel including re-machined R700 actions since 1987. The Surgeons were all over the board on headspace until the "C" models. Pretty much, they remained fairly consistent from there on.
My understanding is that Kelbly's was the first to have pre-fit ready actions, from the mid-90's.
But I could be mistaken.
The parts for a R700 based rifle will be more readily available (by a long shot) and much cheaper than anything AI related.
The entire AI is AI and the parts will have to come from AI. That can be through vendors like Eurooptic or Mile High in the US or directly from Sporting Services in the UK. But if we’re comparing action to action which parts would you expect to fail on the AI action? I’m not sure what impact or surgeon owners carry for spare action parts
I know guys who pack spare triggers especially in dusty environments. But that’s a trigger issue which although is a part of your system’s reliability it’s an aftermarket component in the R700 setup.
Here’s a list of spare parts to grab for the AI based on Jacob’s 350,000+ rounds and 27 burnt barrels on his action. That’s December of 2023. Probably much higher now
Has anyone ever worn out an action?
Has anyone ever actually worn out an action from shooting so much? Dont think ive ever seen anyone talking about a worn action.
www.snipershide.com
If this is a gamer gun, impact. If this is a hard use field rifle, AI.
There, saved you a bunch of time and headache.
There, saved you a bunch of time and headache.
Thanks for the update Terry. Which action was headspace controlled before the C models?
There are internal changes too.
There are guys who post on this site in the AI picture thread with AI failures they don't talk about. I personally know 2 of them. It doesn't get called out but it happens. That's the difference between what you read on the internet and what you see out in the field.
I got blasted a few years ago on here for calling them out so no need to rehash it. People get super defensive when you start to break down their belief structures and no amount of reason, logic and common sense will change that.
A match like mammoth does not put any more wear and tear on a rifle than a PRS match. No one is jumping the guns into the arctic. They aren't chucking their gun down a canyon. Its the environmental that really stress the guns. Rain, Dirt, Snow, Ice. Moisture causing high pressure events resulting in parts failure or a siezed gun. A bunch of dust and dirt getting into the action/trigger causing missfeeds or trigger failures. Then you get into small parts failure. Nothing I have seen says AI makes more reliable/durrable small parts than the other manufactures. In fact, I have seen the opposite. When you pair factory ammo that could be all over the place with these guns, you get another increases variable of failure. Its usualy a combination of things, not just one.
When it comes to a gun, simpler is better and less moving and small parts to break the better IMO. Its why the modern 700 clones with current feature set are so damn reliable when paired with a good trigger and chassis. A broken trigger or firing assembly failure (almost never happens with normal loads even in bad weather) is the most likely failure. Some idiots will also have pressure issues, but that's not the fault of the gun. They load hot and then when the weather changes they run into issues. I 100% mark that as user error no matter the platform.
Factory guns are fleet rifles. When you need a few dozen to a few thousand rifles you buy a factory gun. You buy the maintance kits and spare parts. You train armorers to a basic standard to swap out parts. That is the benefit of something like an AI or MRAD or Cadex.
For an individual, there is virtually no advantage to buying a fleet gun, especially when they end up costing significantly more than a full semi/custom that will perform just as well, give you much more options for fit out and in many cases be easier to shoot. Replacement parts and consumables are also much cheaper for the end user. Go look at what a spare bolt for an AI vs an Impact/terminus/Lone Peak costs. Its twice as much, and good luck getting something like a .223 bolt for training.
Most of the people running AI's at matches and the like are not your high quality shooters. There are a few out there but by large they are the lower rung of shooters. Take a class, and same thing. Its a prestige thing. People think they are some pinnacle rifle , which may have been the case 20+ years ago. We all heard it over the years. You need an AI, S&B and FGMM 168. LOL. There was a time when the Ford Model T was also the pinnace of automobilies.
Maybe an opinionated question for some - but if the Impact is an improved Surgeon as some have mentioned in this thread - then why would one buy a Surgeon over an Impact? Also, as mentioned in this discussion - Some "fantastic gunsmiths with a lot of renown have used Surgeon actions for many years" And Terry mentioned more consistent head space starting with newer Surgeon "C" models - what changed? The 3 Surgeons I had previously were the older R models - 591/MR without Picatinny from Prague, OK.
It wouldn’t bother me at all if people started documenting their AI failures. Such data should be compiled on all guns people talk about.
The reason that I keep asking the question to you is because you are making the claim that a 700 derivative action is more reliable than an AI based on your experience. My personal experience is the opposite of yours. My anecdotal experience is that factory AI guns outperform 700 derivative actions in environmental reliability. I believe there are other reasons to pick a 700 action, just like there are reasons to pick an AI. Your experience contradicts mine, which is why I want to hear about the failures that you know about.
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