Gunsmithing Custom Sizing Die - Thread Doctoring

[AIAW]

Not exactly gunsmithing, but probably better responses in this forum.

I have a custom 375CT Sizer/Decapper die that the threads are not cut deep enough on. Perhaps the lead angle is off, but it will not screw into my 1-1/2-12 press. It will just barely start and that's it. Other 1-1/2-12 dies fit perfectly, as does the seater die that came with the set.

My question. Even though the die has been heat treated, can the threads be "cleaned up" a bit? The pitch appears to be correct - just not deep enough. Major/minor is just slightly larger on the die in question. (Notice the square peak on the right die). Left die is the "good" seater. Right die is the "bad threaded" decapper/sizer.

[IMG2=JSON]{"data-align":"none","data-size":"full","src":"https:\/\/s32.postimg.org\/cqqm4mx2d\/image.jpg"}[/IMG2]

3 weeks to have another die made, plus shipping this one out first to attempt a remedy... ekkk! I'd rather go to a local machine shop and see if they could "chase the threads" so to speak for me.

Thanks for any input.

 

[Threadcutter308]

Not exactly gunsmithing, but probably better responses in this forum.

I have a custom 375CT Sizer/Decapper die that the threads are not cut deep enough on. Perhaps the lead angle is off, but it will not screw into my 1-1/2-12 press. It will just barely start and that's it. Other 1-1/2-12 dies fit perfectly, as does the seater die that came with the set.

My question. Even though the die has been heat treated, can the threads be "cleaned up" a bit? The pitch appears to be correct - just not deep enough. Major/minor is just slightly larger on the die in question. (Notice the square peak on the right die). Left die is the "good" seater. Right die is the "bad threaded" decapper/sizer.

[IMG2=JSON]{"data-align":"none","data-size":"full","src":"https:\/\/s32.postimg.org\/cqqm4mx2d\/image.jpg"}[/IMG2]

3 weeks to have another die made, plus shipping this one out first to attempt a remedy... ekkk! I'd rather go to a local machine shop and see if they could "chase the threads" so to speak for me.

Thanks for any input.

There are likely two problems. The first is that the carbide/ceramic threading insert that was used had the tip fractured/broken off, which explains the lack of total depth of cut. The second is that the operator did not complete the threading job, not having completed the removal of (more) material between the threads. Simply stated, he/they didn't run the threading bit/tip/insert deep enough before calling it "good for a day". It is pretty plain to see that the die on the right still needs to have the threads cut deeper (and as a result, wider) when compared to the die on the left.

The "square peak" is not a bad thing, but it must be accompanied by threads that are cut deep enough/properly, which the die on the right has not been. I usually cut threads with a bit of a square peak, because otherwise, the "pointy" peaks go all the way into the valley of the opposite threads and can bind up. Stainless on Stainless is pretty much a guarantee of galling/binding/$$$ to fix. Reloading dies do not have to stand up to the kinds of pressure that barrel tenons do, so a little bit of square peaks is not an issue here. In addition to the chambering of the bore, a good, square shoulder on the die is important, as that assures (or lack thereof detracts from) good concentricity with the press.

With the die having been heated treated, it's a (big) bitch to clean up the threads after the fact. And, that's assuming the "gunsmith" can "re-time"/"re-coordinate"/"re-index" the used/old die on the lathe setup to correspond with the existing threads. They'd be starting from scratch. Tough to do, especially for those who cannot do a threading job correctly in the first place. This die is enough of a basket case that I would suggest you either request a brand new die built from scratch (and machined properly), or a refund of your money and go somewhere else. I didn't catch what kind of press you have. If you have a press that has a removable die holder, you might send the die holder to the smith and have him/them fit the die to the bore/threads in the die holder. Maybe send him the whole press if it's a single hole/small enough. You also have to make sure the bore of the new die is perfectly concentric with the press. Even if the die blank is perfectly dialed in to the lathe (concentricity wise), that still does not mean the bore of the die is perfectly concentric with you your press. If it's out of whack, that is not the die maker's fault/responsibility, it is the fault of the press manufacturer. In your case, the die threads shown above are simply not cut deep enough.

I would always suggest that you give the smith the opportunity to make things right before dropping the hammer. You shouldn't have to be paying return shipping costs for a product that was not manufactured correctly to begin with. I have recently seen some examples of smiths that have acknowledged a mistake and stood up and advocated for the customer. They are out there and deserve every bit of our business. There was one on the (Scout version) of the Hide the other day that I was really, really impressed with. Unfortunately, I can't remember the company name, but the owner didn't bullshit, fessed up immediately and said to the customer "please let me know what we need to do to make this right, I would suggest starting with "xyz".... Those are the kinds of companies/guys you should be spending your money with. With the change away from the "Scout" parent, I'll probably come across that company's name. I'll post it up when I do. Top drawer people and they've earned our trust/business..

 

[Ksracer]

Run the corner of an old file across a thread, chances are, it will sing like a fiddle instead of cut. If a file won't cut it, very few tool bits will either. 

 

[AIAW]

There are likely two problems. The first is that the carbide/ceramic threading insert that was used had the tip fractured/broken off, which explains the lack of total depth of cut. The second is that the operator did not complete the threading job, not having completed the removal of (more) material between the threads. Simply stated, he/they didn't run the threading bit/tip/insert deep enough before calling it "good for a day". It is pretty plain to see that the die on the right still needs to have the threads cut deeper (and as a result, wider) when compared to the die on the left.

The "square peak" is not a bad thing, but it must be accompanied by threads that are cut deep enough/properly, which the die on the right has not been. I usually cut threads with a bit of a square peak, because otherwise, the "pointy" peaks go all the way into the valley of the opposite threads and can bind up. Stainless on Stainless is pretty much a guarantee of galling/binding/$$$ to fix. Reloading dies do not have to stand up to the kinds of pressure that barrel tenons do, so a little bit of square peaks is not an issue here. In addition to the chambering of the bore, a good, square shoulder on the die is important, as that assures (or lack thereof detracts from) good concentricity with the press.

With the die having been heated treated, it's a (big) bitch to clean up the threads after the fact. And, that's assuming the "gunsmith" can "re-time"/"re-coordinate"/"re-index" the used/old die on the lathe setup to correspond with the existing threads. They'd be starting from scratch. Tough to do, especially for those who cannot do a threading job correctly in the first place. This die is enough of a basket case that I would suggest you either request a brand new die built from scratch (and machined properly), or a refund of your money and go somewhere else. I didn't catch what kind of press you have. If you have a press that has a removable die holder, you might send the die holder to the smith and have him/them fit the die to the bore/threads in the die holder. Maybe send him the whole press if it's a single hole/small enough. You also have to make sure the bore of the new die is perfectly concentric with the press. Even if the die blank is perfectly dialed in to the lathe (concentricity wise), that still does not mean the bore of the die is perfectly concentric with you your press. If it's out of whack, that is not the die maker's fault/responsibility, it is the fault of the press manufacturer. In your case, the die threads shown above are simply not cut deep enough.

I would always suggest that you give the smith the opportunity to make things right before dropping the hammer. You shouldn't have to be paying return shipping costs for a product that was not manufactured correctly to begin with. I have recently seen some examples of smiths that have acknowledged a mistake and stood up and advocated for the customer. They are out there and deserve every bit of our business. There was one on the (Scout version) of the Hide the other day that I was really, really impressed with. Unfortunately, I can't remember the company name, but the owner didn't bullshit, fessed up immediately and said to the customer "please let me know what we need to do to make this right, I would suggest starting with "xyz".... Those are the kinds of companies/guys you should be spending your money with. With the change away from the "Scout" parent, I'll probably come across that company's name. I'll post it up when I do. Top drawer people and they've earned our trust/business..

Thanks for the info. This was somewhat my thought as to the outcome. The (unnamed) smith has been extremely helpful. 3 weeks to cut another with the same reamer though - ouch. That's if it can't be re-threaded of course. Sounds like it won't be most likely.

Out of everything that could be wrong, this really is a silly thing to be defective specifically. I can't load for this brand-new rifle because the damn sizing die won't screw into the press (I need to FL new brass for it to chamber).

I will see if I can push for an expedited process with them.

 

[AIAW]

Run the corner of an old file across a thread, chances are, it will sing like a fiddle instead of cut. If a file won't cut it, very few tool bits will either.Â*

Good idea and I would, but I don't want to gouge it since I may have to return it!

 

[Ksracer]

I will see if I can push for an expedited process with them.

They are probably at the mercy of the heat treaters, hence the 3 weeks. Making an oversize thread insert for your press, if it has 1, may be your only option to get you by until the new die is done. Good luck
 

 

[AIAW]

Yeah, you are probably right there. Didn't think about the re-treatment process for the re-made die.

My press is an RCBS AmmoMaster II (1-1/2-12 thread). I use a Redding Big Boss II for the smaller calibers. I won't be able to open up the AmmoMaster II since it's largest size is the size needed for the die.

The Redding Big Boss II will go to 1-1/4-12 with the 7/8" standard adapter removed. Still won't help me though.

 

[AIAW]

Threads were successfully re-cut and all is well. Very pleased with the customer service and turnaround with this.

 

[Ksracer]

Hey, AIAW. Would you mind PMing me the manufacturer of that die? I think it looks similar to the one I just had trouble with.

 

[AIAW]

PM sent