Night Vision D760 Questions

[Fx1]

Does the windage and elevation on the D760 work the same as a normal scope. i have been reading that its somehow different???

Also Victor says on TNVC that the mount is not in line with the bore??? wouldnt this cause problems when shooting past the zero point?

thanks

 

[Victor-TNVC]

Re: D760 Questions

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Fx1</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Does the windage and elevation on the D760 work the same as a normal scope. i have been reading that its somehow different???

Also Victor says on TNVC that the mount is not in line with the bore??? wouldnt this cause problems when shooting past the zero point?

thanks </div></div>

Basically works the same as a day scope. The slight off bore will not effect you, but we do have the new R&D Precision with the Larue Tactical base listed here http://tnvc.com/items/weapon_moounts_rings/rad_nv2_mount.html that will give you a perfect alignment and of course the repeat zero and QD feature. Hope this helps.

Vic

 

[superde]

Re: D760 Questions

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Victor-TNVC</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Fx1</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Does the windage and elevation on the D760 work the same as a normal scope. i have been reading that its somehow different???

Also Victor says on TNVC that the mount is not in line with the bore??? wouldnt this cause problems when shooting past the zero point?

thanks </div></div>

Basically works the same as a day scope. The slight off bore will not effect you, but we do have the new R&D Precision with the Larue Tactical base listed here http://tnvc.com/items/weapon_moounts_rings/rad_nv2_mount.html that will give you a perfect alignment and of course the repeat zero and QD feature. Hope this helps.

Vic </div></div>

The R&D mount makes the cheek weld more comfortable for sure.

 

[edwin907]

Re: D760 Questions

I have a custom mount for my D760 that interfaces with a LT ACOG base, and it holds zero perfectly.

 

[mcmillanman5]

Re: D760 Questions

My bro has a 760. The adjustments are like a normal scope but the clicks are something in metric (cant remember off he top of my head).

He has the R&D mount and it is way nice!

 

[Fx1]

Re: D760 Questions

Victor for some reason everything on your site is ITAR but i live in the UK the dick head who imports the larue 100 mount in the UK thinks its funny to charge $300 for the mount when its 100$ in the states. i can get the ARMS version cheaper but apparently the R&D bit wont fit the arms one

 

[livetohunt]

Re: D760 Questions

adj.

 

[300LW]

Re: D760 Questions

Victor, interesting mount. It certainly beats my cobbled-together version. I might have to pick one up for my D740.

 

[softcock]

Re: D760 Questions

Your brother might have a 760 raptor and that is not in .25 moa adj. clicks. the 760 raptor is each click ( 0.2 mR )
.

 

[Fx1]

Re: D760 Questions

D760 is 6mm at 100m

 

[softcock]

Re: D760 Questions

don't know ?
is that a morovision 760 ? . it stated in there specs. that it is 1/4 moa
but in the 760 raptor it is wrote in the manual as ( each click 0.2 mR )
.

 

[mcmillanman5]

Re: D760 Questions

I just pulled out my bros 760 to see, it is 1click=6mm/100m.
His is a morovision 760 with the pinnacle tube. I was under the impression that the morovison 760 and the D760 are the same thing.

ETA: His spec sheet says it was assembled 6/21/10 so its fairly new.

 

[softcock]

Re: D760 Questions

6mm is 'real' close to .25 / just a tiny smaller @ .236, but reading on the Moro website with the 760 model it was said to be .25 moa
I know that the mv760 and the 760 raptor models are little different in the body style . They perform almost identical with similar High Quality but they are not one in the same . similar size & looks but the Raptor is little different in it design . The raptor is heavy like a boat anchor also .
.

 

[mcmillanman5]

Re: D760 Questions

Thanks for that info softcock, that makes sense about the adjustments.

I see what you are saying about the raptor being different than the mv760. I was actually refering to the D760 like what victor sells. I think that it is the same as the MV760:

http://tnvc.com/items/night_vision_scopes/d760g3pin.html

 

[Fx1]

Re: D760 Questions

The Raptor is not a 760 someone further up is confused.

The D760 is imported by NightopticsUSA and then sold to the various dealers which means is all the same scope.

it has had some minor revisions over the years though but its 6mm at 100 and im 100% sure of that since i have one right here brand new.

The D760 is derived from the EU version of the D480. the D760 could be considered a cheaper version since it lacks the IR and also the QW mount. but the US gets a Amber/Red reticle which is in place of the IR LED which imo is better.

 

[softcock]

Re: D760 Questions

I am not confused .
.

 

[Victor-TNVC]

Re: D760 Questions

While their Dedal body housing is only sent to dealers, the tubes are not all the same obviously as Night Optics do not supply ITT tubes to dealers, they get them from ITT distributors. We do not trust anyone except ourselves to pick out our own ITT tubes for our rifle scope builds. Thus, they're not "all the same scopes" in regards to the key component. Case in point when I reviewed my D-760 vs. the Raptor. The key to the D-760 in this case was the tube we installed with incredible high specs. Not a Russian or substandard Gen 3 tube or Gen 2 for that matter.

Hope this helps.

Vic

 

[magnum_99]

Re: D760 Questions

In the interest of information, please see this thread:

D740/760 thread

I am doing research into weapon mounted NVG, and I would not want to spend money on something that cannot take hard use.

YMMV.

 

[OmegaMan]

Re: D760 Questions

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: magnum_99</div><div class="ubbcode-body">In the interest of information, please see this thread:

D740/760 thread

I am doing research into weapon mounted NVG, and I would not want to spend money on something that cannot take hard use.

YMMV. </div></div>

LOL. You reference a VERY biased article from a site with much hostility towards the D series scopes. Mainly due to the fact they have a ulterior motive. Thousands of D series scopes have been sold to happy customers. You should VERY much scrutinize what a VERY select few say. They have a financial stake as well as a personal vendetta against a well known dealer that sells the D series scopes. Just my .02 YMMV

 

[magnum_99]

Re: D760 Questions

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: OmegaMan</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: magnum_99</div><div class="ubbcode-body">In the interest of information, please see this thread:

D740/760 thread

I am doing research into weapon mounted NVG, and I would not want to spend money on something that cannot take hard use.

YMMV. </div></div>

LOL. You reference a VERY biased article from a site with much hostility towards the D series scopes. Mainly due to the fact they have a ulterior motive. Thousands of D series scopes have been sold to happy customers. You should VERY much scrutinize what a VERY select few say. They have a financial stake as well as a personal vendetta against a well known dealer that sells the D series scopes. Just my .02 YMMV </div></div>

Ok, the bias is sort of obvious, but is any of the info there accurate?

I don't own a D740/760 nor a Raptor. I need information before spending loads of dough, that is all.

Do the Dedal bodies use plastic gears?

Do they use paper washers for waterproofing?

Do the they use mylar reticles? Do they have recoil issues/failures? Is there any form of shock isolation like in the Raptor?

 

[livetohunt]

Re: D760 Questions

I have been using a D-760 FOR OVER 6 YEARS without 1 single issue.It is set up on a AR-10 and has been used hard.I would not hesitate to buy one. JMHO

 

[OmegaMan]

Re: D760 Questions

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: magnum_99</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: OmegaMan</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: magnum_99</div><div class="ubbcode-body">In the interest of information, please see this thread:

D740/760 thread

I am doing research into weapon mounted NVG, and I would not want to spend money on something that cannot take hard use.

YMMV. </div></div>

LOL. You reference a VERY biased article from a site with much hostility towards the D series scopes. Mainly due to the fact they have a ulterior motive. Thousands of D series scopes have been sold to happy customers. You should VERY much scrutinize what a VERY select few say. They have a financial stake as well as a personal vendetta against a well known dealer that sells the D series scopes. Just my .02 YMMV </div></div>

Ok, the bias is sort of obvious, but is any of the info there accurate?

I don't own a D740/760 nor a Raptor. I need information before spending loads of dough, that is all.

Do the Dedal bodies use plastic gears?

Do they use paper washers for waterproofing?

Do the they use mylar reticles? Do they have recoil issues/failures? Is there any form of shock isolation like in the Raptor?

</div></div>
Much of this is made up issues that do not exist. I have never heard of anyone having a reticule issue with a D series scope.Whatever materials they use in the scope seem to work because the failure rate is very low. Every scope including the Raptor can fail.

The reticule in the D series scope is etched glass. What many want to characterize as a "Mylar" reticule is in fact a dichroic mirror. Almost every night sight will have something like this including the Raptor.

I have NEVER heard any issue with this type of mirror.

I have not heard of any confirmed issues with the gears. They may be Delrin or some other type of plastic. They seem to work whatever material they are made of. I am not aware of paper washers inside. I have never seen any photos showing such washers.

They do not have a shock mitigation system and from what dealers tell me the Raptor does not have one either. The Raptor is a better choice for extended high recoil applications but is a much more expensive scope.

The D series scopes are very good. They are not a Raptor but don't cost near as much either. keep in mind recoil issues are mainly due to the type of tube used. I like to see a halo value of at least 1.25 in a weapon sight. Any tube can fail to recoil but the higher the halo value the more resistant the tube is. No tube is "recoil proof".

It is important that a dealer hand select the tube that will go into a D series scope. It is a good scope that is much cheaper than a Raptor. The Raptor is better but you will pay for that. Just my take on the whole issue.

 

[magnum_99]

Re: D760 Questions

Thanks for the info.

I've seen some Raptors in the mid $5k range, and the top end-D series is over $4K, so my thought process is to question whether or not it simply makes more sense to go with the mil-spec Raptor and eliminate the unknowns associated with manufacture and design of the D-series.

 

[OmegaMan]

Re: D760 Questions

I think for most the D series will serve you well. If you want the best or are someone who shoots thousands of rounds a year then the Raptor is probably the right scope for you.

You will never go wrong buying a Raptor.I know Vic sells the Raptor and the D series scopes. He can use any scope he wants but uses a D series scope very often. That alone tells me something.I think the Raptor is a better choice if you are someone who is going to really use it hard like in a military environment.

I have used the D series and it worked great for me with no issues. Always nice to have cheaper options that perform well.

 

[cj7hawk]

Re: D760 Questions

If the D series shoots consistently, then they could make it out of bubblegum for all I would care. If the thin dichroic reflector was an issue, they wouldn't hold zero.

The important thing to remember about all scope, a lot of the quality in a riflescope comes from how well it's assembled. I've heard of people breaking D-series scopes before through cross-threading and the likes, but these are the only issues I've come across in years of reading forums.

I wouldn't worry at all about items like plastic gears. Modern engineering plastics such as Delrin and Teflon are designed for such operations, approximate many metals in actual use and have lower friction co-efficients and wear levels - highly desirable items to ensure repeatability through the service life of any device.

As for paper? Paper is another engineering material. Don't go assuming just because there's fibrous materials in these scopes that someone's just cut up a newspaper to fix something.

These devices are engineered. They are designed by professionals who know what they are doing. If another part was a better choice, they would use it... After all, the region from which the D-series is manufactured has a reputation for making things rock solid. More so than even the US. So if they make a lightweight, beautifully engineered device like the D740/760, you know that every last aspect of it has been calculated. That's actually something you can trust.

Now I should qualify that I don't actually have a D740/760 myself and haven't laid my hands on one yet, but I would not have ANY qualms based on the article you linked to...

In fact, a lot of the articles I see questioning a scope's integrity usually only end up increasing my respect for the devices. Looking at the photographs, I can see how well they are engineered and that is something I respect. Personally, I think using a thin dichroic mirror for the reticle is genius - it really solves a lot of issues.

I think you will be happy with your scope no matter which you get. But either way, make sure it's assembled by someone you trust. A poorly assembled scope will give you no end of trouble regardless what model it is.

Regards
David

 

[Asm1]

Re: D760 Questions

From what you said,I assume the D740/760 must be better than a Raptor? Why would a raptor be heavier? it must use old tech with metal and O rings and such, if it used the better more modern light weight materials that the D740/760 use it would be as light and durable as a D740/760 from what you said the Russians must be better than American government engineering..?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: cj7hawk</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If the D series shoots consistently, then they could make it out of bubblegum for all I would care. If the thin dichroic reflector was an issue, they wouldn't hold zero.

The important thing to remember about all scope, a lot of the quality in a riflescope comes from how well it's assembled. I've heard of people breaking D-series scopes before through cross-threading and the likes, but these are the only issues I've come across in years of reading forums.

I wouldn't worry at all about items like plastic gears. Modern engineering plastics such as Delrin and Teflon are designed for such operations, approximate many metals in actual use and have lower friction co-efficients and wear levels - highly desirable items to ensure repeatability through the service life of any device.

As for paper? Paper is another engineering material. Don't go assuming just because there's fibrous materials in these scopes that someone's just cut up a newspaper to fix something.

These devices are engineered. They are designed by professionals who know what they are doing. If another part was a better choice, they would use it... After all, the region from which the D-series is manufactured has a reputation for making things rock solid. More so than even the US. So if they make a lightweight, beautifully engineered device like the D740/760, you know that every last aspect of it has been calculated. That's actually something you can trust.

Now I should qualify that I don't actually have a D740/760 myself and haven't laid my hands on one yet, but I would not have ANY qualms based on the article you linked to...

In fact, a lot of the articles I see questioning a scope's integrity usually only end up increasing my respect for the devices. Looking at the photographs, I can see how well they are engineered and that is something I respect. Personally, I think using a thin dichroic mirror for the reticle is genius - it really solves a lot of issues.

I think you will be happy with your scope no matter which you get. But either way, make sure it's assembled by someone you trust. A poorly assembled scope will give you no end of trouble regardless what model it is.

Regards
David </div></div>

 

[livetohunt]

Re: D760 Questions

The Raptor is better but it is a much bigger scope with a bigger obj. and a adj. gain.If you want the best get the Raptor but it is a BIG scope.The D-760 will do what most people want a night scope to do at a lower cost and in a smaller package.

 

[OmegaMan]

Re: D760 Questions

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ASM1</div><div class="ubbcode-body">From what you said,I assume the D740/760 must be better than a Raptor? Why would a raptor be heavier? it must use old tech with metal and O rings and such, if it used the better more modern light weight materials that the D740/760 use it would be as light and durable as a D740/760 from what you said the Russians must be better than American government engineering..?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: cj7hawk</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If the D series shoots consistently, then they could make it out of bubblegum for all I would care. If the thin dichroic reflector was an issue, they wouldn't hold zero.

The important thing to remember about all scope, a lot of the quality in a riflescope comes from how well it's assembled. I've heard of people breaking D-series scopes before through cross-threading and the likes, but these are the only issues I've come across in years of reading forums.

I wouldn't worry at all about items like plastic gears. Modern engineering plastics such as Delrin and Teflon are designed for such operations, approximate many metals in actual use and have lower friction co-efficients and wear levels - highly desirable items to ensure repeatability through the service life of any device.

As for paper? Paper is another engineering material. Don't go assuming just because there's fibrous materials in these scopes that someone's just cut up a newspaper to fix something.

These devices are engineered. They are designed by professionals who know what they are doing. If another part was a better choice, they would use it... After all, the region from which the D-series is manufactured has a reputation for making things rock solid. More so than even the US. So if they make a lightweight, beautifully engineered device like the D740/760, you know that every last aspect of it has been calculated. That's actually something you can trust.

Now I should qualify that I don't actually have a D740/760 myself and haven't laid my hands on one yet, but I would not have ANY qualms based on the article you linked to...

In fact, a lot of the articles I see questioning a scope's integrity usually only end up increasing my respect for the devices. Looking at the photographs, I can see how well they are engineered and that is something I respect. Personally, I think using a thin dichroic mirror for the reticle is genius - it really solves a lot of issues.

I think you will be happy with your scope no matter which you get. But either way, make sure it's assembled by someone you trust. A poorly assembled scope will give you no end of trouble regardless what model it is.

Regards
David </div></div> </div></div>

I don't believe he is saying it is better than a Raptor at all. Keep in mind that while the Raptor is a great scope it is a old design. If it were to be designed today I would bet many weight saving materials would be used that simply were not widely available when the scope was thought out.

Nobody is saying the D series scope is the best ever made. The Russians, whether you want to believe it or not can make some really good scopes when they want to. They tend not to make cutting edge or fancy gear but it is usually very durable and well thought out.

The D series scope is a newer design and uses lighter weight materials. Heavy does not always mean tough. The Raptor is a tough scope no doubt. But, it is heavy. The PVS-4 is a great scope also and I think with a modern tube would outperform a Raptor. Problem is you need to be in real good shape to lug it around. Both the Raptor and D series scopes are very good. The Raptor is better but weighs and costs more. Bottom line....

 

[Asm1]

Re: D760 Questions

PVS4 is better than them all with a gen3 tube, Realy ?
D series You know what material the mecahnical assy are built from ?
D series You know what material the shims and gaskets are built from?
D series You know the reticule workings is a better design than the raptor ?

Realy not looking for guessing here,If you know spill the beans...keep it to facts if you please...


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: OmegaMan</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ASM1</div><div class="ubbcode-body">From what you said,I assume the D740/760 must be better than a Raptor? Why would a raptor be heavier? it must use old tech with metal and O rings and such, if it used the better more modern light weight materials that the D740/760 use it would be as light and durable as a D740/760 from what you said the Russians must be better than American government engineering..?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: cj7hawk</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If the D series shoots consistently, then they could make it out of bubblegum for all I would care. If the thin dichroic reflector was an issue, they wouldn't hold zero.

The important thing to remember about all scope, a lot of the quality in a riflescope comes from how well it's assembled. I've heard of people breaking D-series scopes before through cross-threading and the likes, but these are the only issues I've come across in years of reading forums.

I wouldn't worry at all about items like plastic gears. Modern engineering plastics such as Delrin and Teflon are designed for such operations, approximate many metals in actual use and have lower friction co-efficients and wear levels - highly desirable items to ensure repeatability through the service life of any device.

As for paper? Paper is another engineering material. Don't go assuming just because there's fibrous materials in these scopes that someone's just cut up a newspaper to fix something.

These devices are engineered. They are designed by professionals who know what they are doing. If another part was a better choice, they would use it... After all, the region from which the D-series is manufactured has a reputation for making things rock solid. More so than even the US. So if they make a lightweight, beautifully engineered device like the D740/760, you know that every last aspect of it has been calculated. That's actually something you can trust.

Now I should qualify that I don't actually have a D740/760 myself and haven't laid my hands on one yet, but I would not have ANY qualms based on the article you linked to...

In fact, a lot of the articles I see questioning a scope's integrity usually only end up increasing my respect for the devices. Looking at the photographs, I can see how well they are engineered and that is something I respect. Personally, I think using a thin dichroic mirror for the reticle is genius - it really solves a lot of issues.

I think you will be happy with your scope no matter which you get. But either way, make sure it's assembled by someone you trust. A poorly assembled scope will give you no end of trouble regardless what model it is.

Regards
David </div></div> </div></div>

I don't believe he is saying it is better than a Raptor at all. Keep in mind that while the Raptor is a great scope it is a old design. If it were to be designed today I would bet many weight saving materials would be used that simply were not widely available when the scope was thought out.

Nobody is saying the D series scope is the best ever made. The Russians, whether you want to believe it or not can make some really good scopes when they want to. They tend not to make cutting edge or fancy gear but it is usually very durable and well thought out.

The D series scope is a newer design and uses lighter weight materials. Heavy does not always mean tough. The Raptor is a tough scope no doubt. But, it is heavy. The PVS-4 is a great scope also and I think with a modern tube would outperform a Raptor. Problem is you need to be in real good shape to lug it around. Both the Raptor and D series scopes are very good. The Raptor is better but weighs and costs more. Bottom line.... </div></div>

 

[OmegaMan]

Re: D760 Questions

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ASM1</div><div class="ubbcode-body">PVS4 is better than them all with a gen3 tube, Realy ?
D series You know what material the mecahnical assy are built from ?
D series You know what material the shims and gaskets are built from?
D series You know the reticule workings is a better design than the raptor ?

Realy not looking for guessing here,If you know spill the beans...keep it to facts if you please...


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: OmegaMan</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ASM1</div><div class="ubbcode-body">From what you said,I assume the D740/760 must be better than a Raptor? Why would a raptor be heavier? it must use old tech with metal and O rings and such, if it used the better more modern light weight materials that the D740/760 use it would be as light and durable as a D740/760 from what you said the Russians must be better than American government engineering..?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: cj7hawk</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If the D series shoots consistently, then they could make it out of bubblegum for all I would care. If the thin dichroic reflector was an issue, they wouldn't hold zero.

The important thing to remember about all scope, a lot of the quality in a riflescope comes from how well it's assembled. I've heard of people breaking D-series scopes before through cross-threading and the likes, but these are the only issues I've come across in years of reading forums.

I wouldn't worry at all about items like plastic gears. Modern engineering plastics such as Delrin and Teflon are designed for such operations, approximate many metals in actual use and have lower friction co-efficients and wear levels - highly desirable items to ensure repeatability through the service life of any device.

As for paper? Paper is another engineering material. Don't go assuming just because there's fibrous materials in these scopes that someone's just cut up a newspaper to fix something.

These devices are engineered. They are designed by professionals who know what they are doing. If another part was a better choice, they would use it... After all, the region from which the D-series is manufactured has a reputation for making things rock solid. More so than even the US. So if they make a lightweight, beautifully engineered device like the D740/760, you know that every last aspect of it has been calculated. That's actually something you can trust.

Now I should qualify that I don't actually have a D740/760 myself and haven't laid my hands on one yet, but I would not have ANY qualms based on the article you linked to...

In fact, a lot of the articles I see questioning a scope's integrity usually only end up increasing my respect for the devices. Looking at the photographs, I can see how well they are engineered and that is something I respect. Personally, I think using a thin dichroic mirror for the reticle is genius - it really solves a lot of issues.

I think you will be happy with your scope no matter which you get. But either way, make sure it's assembled by someone you trust. A poorly assembled scope will give you no end of trouble regardless what model it is.

Regards
David </div></div> </div></div>

I don't believe he is saying it is better than a Raptor at all. Keep in mind that while the Raptor is a great scope it is a old design. If it were to be designed today I would bet many weight saving materials would be used that simply were not widely available when the scope was thought out.

Nobody is saying the D series scope is the best ever made. The Russians, whether you want to believe it or not can make some really good scopes when they want to. They tend not to make cutting edge or fancy gear but it is usually very durable and well thought out.

The D series scope is a newer design and uses lighter weight materials. Heavy does not always mean tough. The Raptor is a tough scope no doubt. But, it is heavy. The PVS-4 is a great scope also and I think with a modern tube would outperform a Raptor. Problem is you need to be in real good shape to lug it around. Both the Raptor and D series scopes are very good. The Raptor is better but weighs and costs more. Bottom line.... </div></div> </div></div>

Yes, the PVS-4 is better with a "Modern tube " . I already told you what I know about the D series scope. The materials used seem to work because MANY happy users exist with few complaints.

If you are going to bash the D series scope then show me hard data and not hearsay. A guy who's grandmother in Texas who thinks she has a issue does not hold water in my book. I deal in facts and not what a bunch of ill informed idiots with a agenda think.

 

[Asm1]

Re: D760 Questions

I don't have any an agenda,YOU MUST ?
I ask questions to what cjhawk stated.. I see a link and I see questions arise first time I read any on that and I see A chance to put the questions to rest,If its not res-table then I guess I wont be buying a D series..

Thanks for your input.. and I wont be going back in time to the pvs4 LOL...

 

[cj7hawk]

Re: D760 Questions

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ASM1</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
From what you said,I assume the D740/760 must be better than a Raptor? Why would a raptor be heavier? it must use old tech with metal and O rings and such, if it used the better more modern light weight materials that the D740/760 use it would be as light and durable as a D740/760 from what you said the Russians must be better than American government engineering..?
</div></div>

and

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ASM1</div><div class="ubbcode-body">PVS4 is better than them all with a gen3 tube, Realy ?
D series You know what material the mecahnical assy are built from ?
D series You know what material the shims and gaskets are built from?
D series You know the reticule workings is a better design than the raptor ?

Realy not looking for guessing here,If you know spill the beans...keep it to facts if you please...
</div></div>

Hi Asm1.

Firstly, you really need to learn to quote for effect. It's actually really difficult to read your posts. See above for a good example.

OK, you've asked me some questions, so I will respond.

Do I know the D-series mechanical/shims/gaskets/reticle? Nope. I only know what's shown in the pictures on the site quoted earlier and I said as much. From the pictures I saw, it looks pretty good that I did qualify that opinion quite accurately when I offered it.

As for modern engineering plastics, you'll find they often replace Steel and Aluminium with materials like Delrin. For small gears like you might find in a scope, these newer materials are probably superior and offer better life under normal use.

No where did I say the D740/760 was better than the Raptor. By all accounts, i hear the Raptor is a fantastic scope and is highly respected. It's designed to have a long service life and withstand being constantly punished. Why make it stronger? Because if, say, you happen to drop your rifle on a rock, scope down, you really want it to still be operating when you pick it up.

So if you think you might be working in dangerous environments where such things as bombs going off around you are a problem, then maybe the Raptor is for you. If you just need accurate shot placement and you take care of you kit, then maybe you don't need to spend the extra money and as an added bonus, you might save a little weight too.

Now. About the Russians.
Do you honestly think *anything* made for the Russian Military is going to be made lighter than the US equivalent? Russians are NOTORIOUS for over-engineering anything... So when they make something lightweight, even if it's for the consumer market, you know there's some real finesse involved.

As for engineering? Russians have been using paper shim for YEARS for optical purposes. It is, in fact, ideal for the purpose. eg, http://jay.fedka.com/index_files/Page433.htm - I used to work with Romanians once and they taught me all kinds of things... There's a different mentality with eastern engineering. They see engineering materials for what they are, not for how people perceive them.

But if you DO know the exact answers to your questions, please post them...

As for the PVS-4? Dino's correct. A PVS-4 with a suitable Gen3+1 tube will outperform ANY current Gen3 scope.

Why? Even if it doesn't have the resolution, a Gen3+1 can have gain levels up to 300,000 times. Three times that the US tubes can currently make.

But even that aside, the main reason for the PVS-4 design's performance ability, even when you ignore the HUGE lenses and solid, proven military design, comes down to one factor. <span style="text-decoration: underline"><span style="font-style: italic"><span style="font-weight: bold">Chromatic Aberration</span></span></span>

The PVS-4 Cat lens focuses ALL wavelengths of light at the same location, while a Raptor focuses them at DIFFERENT locations. ( So does a D740/760 BTW ). This means that a PVS-4 type setup can maintain a perfect focus of an object across the entire spectrum to which it is sensitive. The Raptor can't.

So yeah, based on that one factor alone, I would say that the PVS-4 catadioptric type lens is better than ALL of the refractive designs... <span style="font-style: italic">Especially</span> for NV purposes.

But before you go getting all apochromatic in your response, read this... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catadioptric_system

Just some basic lens science.

This is why people with Raptors and D740/D760's sometimes notice that a scope perfectly focussed for moonlight is suddenly out of focus with extra IR above 900nm.

But since in a Starlight situation, you really WANT the light above and below 800nm, it's a far more serious issue.

And I think we're about to see a renaissance of the Cat lens system in NV.

Regards
David

 

[Asm1]

Re: D760 Questions

CJHAWK
Well Kudos ! I have a hard time understanding your quotes,maybe I should get a foster over the RUM or you Rum over Fosters ?

Thanks for working threw my limited forum communication skills.

I didn't really think the Russians would build a Lighter more durable unit,That was the only true loaded questions I posted.

I understand now that some of your ramblings where in "theory" if they used "these materials" mentioned that it could and would be feasible to use in your opinion.

I have no Knowing of whats in a D740/D760,I did disassemble a Raptor.

NO one really knows the facts about the internals of the D series scopes except the manufacture speculation has taken over at some point,Vic could call his supplier and find out and put it to rest,It may not matter to most,But I would like the speculation to be challenged or put to bed before I bought a D 740/760

As for Agendas from the link a few post above, I know nothing about them or there "AGENDAS" and sounds like "SOME" of you have been into it with the same persons ? You guys can argue all you want.

not directed at you CJ7HAWK But I just got here SO DONT LABLE ME IN ANY AGENDA.

I did learn something here,I never thought the PVS4 to outperform its replacement in resolution clarity or durability.

I will buy an PVS4 install a Gen III tube,What tubes will work in the PVS4 ?

 

[OmegaMan]

Re: D760 Questions

I don't think they drink much Foster's in AU. The Aussies export that crap to us. I suspect in retaliation for the crap tubes we sell them. http://cdn.snipershide.com/snipershide.com/forum/images/icons/default/grin.gif

They make a Gen 3 tube for the PVS-4 but most barely perform above the normal Gen 2. The 3+1 tube Hawk refers to is a very rare tube. I only know one person to have one. The odds of finding one are very low.

ASM1, I think we got off on the wrong foot. Not accusing you of any agenda. I was simply stating that the article referenced was agenda based. I know two dealers that sell the D series very well. They have few problems with them. They also sell Raptors and have seen few problems. They have had returns on both scopes for minor issues but it is the exception rather then the norm.

I guess the only way to end it once and for all would be to buy a Raptor and a D-760 then dissect them. I don't have the money to do this for internet curiosity. Both scopes seem to work well based on the thousands sold. That is good enough for me.

I believe everyone agrees the Raptor is the better scope. I think the D series are a good cheaper alternative. Both are well made optics.

 

[MillSpec]

Re: D760 Questions

All D760 dealers could do with posting the internals of the unit with photos and explanations as to what does what to finally put this to bed. An internal examination from the dealer would go a long way to helping people understand the difference between a £3600 D760 and a $6000 Raptor.

All modern electronics get torn down on internet blogs to see whats what inside.

Nightvision never seems very far away from controversy and its mainly to do with the dealers and manufacturers.

The use of the word Commercial Grade really pisses me off when people describe night vision tubes when in fact the more accurate term should be "Factory Second"

Its about time dealers were 100% transparent about their products. Would save everyone time

 

[cj7hawk]

Re: D760 Questions

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ASM1</div><div class="ubbcode-body">CJHAWK
Well Kudos ! I have a hard time understanding your quotes,maybe I should get a foster over the RUM or you Rum over Fosters ?

--and--

not directed at you CJ7HAWK But I just got here SO DONT LABLE ME IN ANY AGENDA.
</div></div>


Read your posts if you don't understand, ASM1. Because to me it looks pretty much like you accused me of making up falsehoods. What I offered was a qualified opinion. You responded equally broad. A friend clarified quite accurately and then you responded rather aggressively. What did you expect?

The article that was quoted does denigrate the D740/760 by means of offering observations that really don't reflect the reality of what is being used. Plastic mechanisms are fine when used correctly. Paper is a perfectly acceptable engineering material and is quite common in Russian devices. The pictures, intended to support arguments of cheap plastic reticle films show what looks like an optical quality dichroic mirror. I've performed color analysis on it before to confirm it is what it is. That can be done with a photograph. The post is still up on ARFcom.

But there's no reason, within that article to believe that it's a bad scope. Spreading FUD about a device does no-one any favors.

To quote Wolverine Technologies directly ( and in context I believe )
"there may be some good ones out there, there were a lot of them sold, perhaps most owners of these units do not use them enough to wear them out or have them fail"

What is being said is that the owners of these scopes do not seem to be having problems and there are a LOT of them out there. Think about that.

If you wanted to attack anything I said, you could accuse me of lying when I said I woulnd't care if it was made of bubblegum and I would have said I was being poetic. But instead you ask me to keep it to the facts? What did I otherwise post that you felt wasn't a fact?

That was a rather offensive thing to have said and if that was your intent, you succeeded. Not directed at me? Well, it really felt directed at me.

Anyway, I will leave it at that. I don't like to argue outside of the discussion and I'll take your comment about not being directed at me at face value and not bear a grudge. I'll even apologise for my heated words.

But don't mistake. I'd really like to see evidence of any issues this scope has. To simply rubbish it because the dichroic mirror isn't solid-looking, the gears metal or the shims brass isn't a very honest topic response. This isn't a cheap product and it's proven itself in the field.

But what I said was correct. It was an opinion and it was my perspective.

And I'd love to have something like the D740/D760 myself.

As for the PVS-4? Well, that's going to be difficult, but if you find a F4744 outside of the military, please let me know. I'd love to see your results. The F4745 has been tested with other devices and is quite a tube, especially for astronomy. ( That's the civilian version ). You might be able to try a MX11620 ( I think Karma has a few? ) but you will lack resolution and photocathode sensitivity due to the FO input window. Not to mention gain is lower as well.

Still, I think it would be easier to test with a CNVD or similar. Any of the scopes with a cat lens would be fine. Then you can use the same tube in a Raptor if you wish. That should illustrate the problem quite well and you will see which one provides the greater clarity.

David.

 

[Asm1]

Re: D760 Questions

Cjhawk
I did read My quote and your right,It does look like I called you out sorry for my mistake on the way I quoted it. I just hit a quote button and Like you said I need learn to better the use of said button sorry.

I was questioning in general to anyone that may have these answers and to keep said answers to facts,Not meant for you or omegaman directly as directed accidentally,but to anyone reading said questions..
Well the russian questions was for you both

 

[OmegaMan]

Re: D760 Questions

meh, just the internet at the end of the day. Lets all shake hands and go have a beer (no Fosters though). Sam Adams Cherry Wheat for me.

 

[Asm1]

Re: D760 Questions

Truth be out,I like captainn morgans and I had a few on the net from time to time so sometimes you have a little captain driveing the keyboard.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: OmegaMan</div><div class="ubbcode-body">meh, just the internet at the end of the day. Lets all shake hands and go have a beer (no Fosters though). Sam Adams Cherry Wheat for me. </div></div>

 

[Emouse]

Re: D760 Questions

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MillSpec</div><div class="ubbcode-body">All D760 dealers could do with posting the internals of the unit with photos and explanations as to what does what to finally put this to bed. An internal examination from the dealer would go a long way to helping people understand the difference between a £3600 D760 and a $6000 Raptor.

All modern electronics get torn down on internet blogs to see whats what inside.

Nightvision never seems very far away from controversy and its mainly to do with the dealers and manufacturers.

The use of the word Commercial Grade really pisses me off when people describe night vision tubes when in fact the more accurate term should be "Factory Second"

Its about time dealers were 100% transparent about their products. Would save everyone time </div></div>

Agreed,...I have had a RAPTOR along with PVS-4 and other NV kit. Prior to shelling out for the Raptor I aked Victor amongst other dealers for info on just how difficult strip down and replacement of tubes where in the D-760.

No reply. Ever.

Too many delaers exist on telling us their products are great when in fact they haven't a clue on how the units break down or correctly setup.

I would love to see real detail on the D-760.

 

[OmegaMan]

Re: D760 Questions

I understand it is difficult to replace a tube in a D series scope. I don't think any manufacturer is going to give you a break down of all the internal components in their scope.

I rarely if ever see complete breakdowns on any scope be it a day or night sight. Show me a complete breakdown of a Raptor from the internet. Never seen it. I am sure the military has tech manuals but never seen them released.

I don't see break downs on Lupy's or any other. It is not just the D-760. I think most will not show internal components due to proprietary parts and design features. I am certainly not going to show my competition how I design my optics. You may get some simple diagrams but few are ever going to give you complete breakdown unless it is a very old design or has a patent.

Nothing stops you from taking one apart but no dealer is going to do it for you IMHO. That is their right. If I made scopes I would not tell everyone every part and design feature contained within. Pretty unrealistic to ask this if you ask me.

Dealers have no duty to run classes on how to dismantle , upgrade or repair their products. They don't want people to monkey with them. That is why they service gear. At the end of the day it is a business and they make money doing repairs and upgrades.

I am surprised they give out as much info as they do. If someone called me asking about how to take it apart and what the exact components are I would tell them to go pound sand. I most likely would not be in business long because I tend to speak my mind. I would bet many dealers think it but give a politically correct answer. Sometimes that is just no answer at all.

 

[MillSpec]

Re: D760 Questions

Omega to be honest thats rubbish.

I have seen the insides of a Zeiss scope on a video and even how they make them provided by no other than ZEISS.

Companies and manufacturers who are worth their salt will answer questions about designs and materials especially when said product is being accused of poor standards.

Also NV dealers are just dealers and they are nothing else, a dime a dozen. Please dont get them confused with people who actually design and make night vision devices. Anyone can buy 100 tubes and 100 housings and become a dealer.

The questions at hand are also pretty simple and can be quite easily answered by anyone who takes these things apart.

If they wanted the scope put in the correct light then they would be proactive and answer the questions or they can wait till someone with an agenda does it and makes life a little harder.

When things come out of the woodwork after lots of silence and disinformation it looks bad no matter how good the scope actually is.

Read the optics section with the manufacturers who post on there about day scopes and the detail they go in to about turrets and other designs.

Night Vision does not share this attribute and its something the industry would be wise to adopt. There is a distinct lack of full disclosure.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: D760 Questions

Milspec, Magnum, et al...

I am gonna call you out right here, and now before this gets to the point where I am removing you all, because this where it is headed based on YOUR past histories with this type of discussion.

I am well aware of the things that went on at M4Carbine, Arfcom and what is being put out by Wolverine.

You are competitors plain and simple, although not so simple because from the outside looking in, not many know this. You guys have taken it upon yourself to attack TNVC on these other boards resulting in your removal from these sites.

You claim to have found a solution to problem no one has, simply because, as you say, know what is inside the scopes. Okay great, you say they are putting out disinformation and fooling the end user, well from what I see and have read, no one else sees it this way, and your back handed and front sided attacks on TNVC are not gonna happen here.

I know about the cute names, I know about the endless posts done in service of NV users, well honestly no one but you and Wolverine see this dis-service by TNVC, which is very, very telling.

So before this goes the route you all took it on the others sites, I am gonna stop it here and now. To me, it is that simple. Given the choice, you guys will be shown the door first.

 

[MillSpec]

Re: D760 Questions

I dont visit M4carbine. and im not sure whats going on with Wolverine.

i certainly dont work for anyone.

since when were TNVC mentioned in this thread?

As far as i know NightopticsUSA is the american importer for D760's

 

[OmegaMan]

Re: D760 Questions

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MillSpec</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I dont visit M4carbine. and im not sure whats going on with Wolverine.

i certainly dont work for anyone.

since when were TNVC mentioned in this thread?

As far as i know NightopticsUSA is the american importer for D760's </div></div>

Millspec, I don't think the man is stupid. He seems to have read many forums and has a good handle on who is who.

I am going to help him. You are Pandamonia on the Wolverine forum. You are also the banned FXOne on ARF.com that came back again as Millspec and got banned again

You have been banned from nightvisionforums , The ARF twice , The UK AirgunBBS forum a few times and I am sure the list goes on.

You are notorious for using different IP's and popping back up once you have been banned. You are well aware of what goes on at Wolverine because you are the author of the Wasp posts and a lot of derogatory false info about the D series scopes.

You are not fooling anyone and yes this is Dino1130 in case you are confused. I have no reason to hide from anyone. Please go back to Wolverine. You fit in nicely at that site. We want to talk about night vision without a lot of babbling over nothing.

 

[MillSpec]

Re: D760 Questions

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: OmegaMan</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MillSpec</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I dont visit M4carbine. and im not sure whats going on with Wolverine.

i certainly dont work for anyone.

since when were TNVC mentioned in this thread?

As far as i know NightopticsUSA is the american importer for D760's </div></div>

Millspec, I don't think the man is stupid. He seems to have read many forums and has a good handle on who is who.

I am going to help him. You are Pandamonia on the Wolverine forum. You are also the banned FXOne on ARF.com that came back again as Millspec and got banned again

You have been banned from nightvisionforums , The ARF twice , The UK AirgunBBS forum a few times and I am sure the list goes on.

You are notorious for using different IP's and popping back up once you have been banned. You are well aware of what goes on at Wolverine because you are the author of the Wasp posts and a lot of derogatory false info about the D series scopes.

You are not fooling anyone and yes this is Dino1130 in case you are confused. I have no reason to hide from anyone. Please go back to Wolverine. You fit in nicely at that site. We want to talk about night vision without a lot of babbling over nothing. </div></div>

I am banned from no forums. ill post on any of them right now on my usual names which arent any of the above.

You dont know what your talking about.

Why would i slam a scope that i own myself.

I joined this forum to talk about S&B scopes and not night vision until i found this thread i thought it put my info in.

i wont bother in the future.

PS. seems you dont own a D760 so why are you even here

 

[magnum_99]

Re: D760 Questions

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Milspec, Magnum, et al...

I am gonna call you out right here, and now before this gets to the point where I am removing you all, because this where it is headed based on YOUR past histories with this type of discussion.

I am well aware of the things that went on at M4Carbine, Arfcom and what is being put out by Wolverine.

You are competitors plain and simple, although not so simple because from the outside looking in, not many know this. You guys have taken it upon yourself to attack TNVC on these other boards resulting in your removal from these sites.

You claim to have found a solution to problem no one has, simply because, as you say, know what is inside the scopes. Okay great, you say they are putting out disinformation and fooling the end user, well from what I see and have read, no one else sees it this way, and your back handed and front sided attacks on TNVC are not gonna happen here.

I know about the cute names, I know about the endless posts done in service of NV users, well honestly no one but you and Wolverine see this dis-service by TNVC, which is very, very telling.

So before this goes the route you all took it on the others sites, I am gonna stop it here and now. To me, it is that simple. Given the choice, you guys will be shown the door first. </div></div>


Frank, hold on.

All I did was ask a question. I'm researching these scopes, and want to know what is going on with them. I saw the post at the other forum, and thought they were raising some valid questions about the scopes. I own a PVS14, but have ZERO knowledge or experience with the weapon sights.

I'm not engaged in any pissing matches here, or anywhere else. Please don't lump me in with the drama.

I'm just an end user. I don't work in the industry (I'm a lawyer) and all I care about is not wasting my money. Indeed, I post on ARFCOM and here under the same user name, and don't have any others.

Thanks (and I apologize if I stepped on anyone's toes--again, I'm looking for good information which is tough to come by about NVG).

 

[OmegaMan]

Re: D760 Questions

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MillSpec</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: OmegaMan</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MillSpec</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I dont visit M4carbine. and im not sure whats going on with Wolverine.

i certainly dont work for anyone.

since when were TNVC mentioned in this thread?

As far as i know NightopticsUSA is the american importer for D760's </div></div>

Millspec, I don't think the man is stupid. He seems to have read many forums and has a good handle on who is who.

I am going to help him. You are Pandamonia on the Wolverine forum. You are also the banned FXOne on ARF.com that came back again as Millspec and got banned again

You have been banned from nightvisionforums , The ARF twice , The UK AirgunBBS forum a few times and I am sure the list goes on.

You are notorious for using different IP's and popping back up once you have been banned. You are well aware of what goes on at Wolverine because you are the author of the Wasp posts and a lot of derogatory false info about the D series scopes.

You are not fooling anyone and yes this is Dino1130 in case you are confused. I have no reason to hide from anyone. Please go back to Wolverine. You fit in nicely at that site. We want to talk about night vision without a lot of babbling over nothing. </div></div>

I am banned from no forums. ill post on any of them right now on my usual names which arent any of the above.

You dont know what your talking about.

Why would i slam a scope that i own myself.

I joined this forum to talk about S&B scopes and not night vision until i found this thread i thought it put my info in.

i wont bother in the future.

PS. seems you dont own a D760 so why are you even here
</div></div>

Whatever Pando..... I won't allow you to waste anymore of my time.You have good night vision knowledge. I just wish you would put it to good use instead of trolling. If you do that you would find a friend in many. We would also not tell who you really are. Think about that. You are defined by the company you keep. You have lots of potential if you direct it in the right ways. Cheers, Dino

 

[GhostFace]

Re: D760 Questions

While I can't offer any technical info on the D series scope, I can only give you my user end experience with the D740. Our deparmtent purchased two at first and we are about to purchase three more. I have had mine for about four years now and it has performed very well. We decided to go with the Gen II SHP tube simply because of the distance we normally deploy at. I was in charge of making the purchase and I (we) have no regrets. When I recieved the first two scopes I thought Victor had screwed up and sent us Gen III tubes, the SHP is that good. We have no problems with target identification at 100 yards on a starry night with out illuminators, not to mention the light coming from houses and what not. We just added the Torch to our kits and the last time out I was able to bang steel easily at 300 yards. I could make out the steel targets at 500 but I could not make any hits on them. I just did this for shits and giggles as I doubt I would make a shot beyond 100/200 yards in the real world.

We have the units mounted in ARMS mounts and the RTZ has been great. One of our guys doesn't trust it he has elected to permantly mout it to a second rifle and just carry two. I keep mine in a pack that rides in the trunk of my car and gets banged around alot and again no problems. If we could get the blessings from the bosses we would have went with PVS-22s but it is hard to justify the cost to none SWAT bosses. I (we) am very pleased with the performance of the scopes, I don't have any concerns aout it's durability or it's accuracy. I know the rounds are going where I want them to. I was really suprised my last time out with mine when shooting paper at 100 yards. I shot several 5 shot groups that was right aorund 1/2 MOA. When we moved back to 200 yards I could only hold 1 MOA at best with most being groups being 2 1/2 inches. I am the only one who uses a semi auto (AR-10T) and if I was using a bolt like theother guys I might be able to tighten it up a bit.

Bottom line these are good scopes and I wouldn buy one withmy own money. i hiope that helps in your decision....

 

[Victor-TNVC]

Re: D760 Questions

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: GhostFace</div><div class="ubbcode-body">While I can't offer any technical info on the D series scope, I can only give you my user end experience with the D740. Our deparmtent purchased two at first and we are about to purchase three more. I have had mine for about four years now and it has performed very well. We decided to go with the Gen II SHP tube simply because of the distance we normally deploy at. I was in charge of making the purchase and I (we) have no regrets. When I recieved the first two scopes I thought Victor had screwed up and sent us Gen III tubes, the SHP is that good. We have no problems with target identification at 100 yards on a starry night with out illuminators, not to mention the light coming from houses and what not. We just added the Torch to our kits and the last time out I was able to bang steel easily at 300 yards. I could make out the steel targets at 500 but I could not make any hits on them. I just did this for shits and giggles as I doubt I would make a shot beyond 100/200 yards in the real world.

We have the units mounted in ARMS mounts and the RTZ has been great. One of our guys doesn't trust it he has elected to permantly mout it to a second rifle and just carry two. I keep mine in a pack that rides in the trunk of my car and gets banged around alot and again no problems. If we could get the blessings from the bosses we would have went with PVS-22s but it is hard to justify the cost to none SWAT bosses. I (we) am very pleased with the performance of the scopes, I don't have any concerns aout it's durability or it's accuracy. I know the rounds are going where I want them to. I was really suprised my last time out with mine when shooting paper at 100 yards. I shot several 5 shot groups that was right aorund 1/2 MOA. When we moved back to 200 yards I could only hold 1 MOA at best with most being groups being 2 1/2 inches. I am the only one who uses a semi auto (AR-10T) and if I was using a bolt like theother guys I might be able to tighten it up a bit.

Bottom line these are good scopes and I wouldn buy one withmy own money. i hiope that helps in your decision.... </div></div>

I want to thank you personally for writing this. I remember your Dept. now and the initial purchase. ;-)

It's good to see your review because a select few Lowlight has talked about on another site continue to beat this scope and me down (other motives here) relentlessly with no substantiated information on their claims. We are told LE agencies should not use this scope as they are unreliable, fall apart, have tape reticles and will not hold zero. Now we hear their reason some scopes are doing well, is because the user has not shot his scope enough.

Funny thing is, you're not alone here, there are many LE AND varying Govy folks using these scopes with very good success especially with LE Dept's on a budget. Once again, thank you for stepping out to take time to post this.