Gunsmithing DBM Inlet: Surgeon vs KMW

[FourT6and2]

My in-progress McMillan A5 was ordered with Surgeon SA DBM inlet. I have both Surgeon DBM and KMW MK-I, Gen II DBM. I thought the two DBM had the same inlet. However, mocking them up with my LPA Fuzion action, it looks like there is a difference. Will this be an issue if my stock is inlet for Surgeon?

And even if it isn't an issue, if my rifle smith beds my action/stock/dbm for one, and I want to install the other, I'm guessing it won't work?

SURGEON:

KMW:

 

[FourT6and2]

@Terry Cross

 

[powdahound76]

Given the choice, owning both, I would go with the KMW.

Admittedly a KMW and Terry Cross fan and for good reason.

I was thinking the KMW and APA were near same (bit beefier than Badger M5) and could be the surgeon is the one that nearly matches the KMW.

 

[FourT6and2]

Given the choice, owning both, I would go with the KMW.

Admittedly a KMW and Terry Cross fan and for good reason.

I was thinking the KMW and APA were near same (bit beefier than Badger M5) and could be the surgeon is the one that nearly matches the KMW.

Yeah, the KMW looks to be the nicer DBM, having both here side by side. However my stock is inlet for Surgeon. I don't know if the different angle will matter or not. My smith will bed it either way.

I initially ordered stock inlet for Surgeon because that's just what I've always used. But then I couldn't get my hands on a Surgeon DBM, so I purchased the KMW. But then the Surgeon became available and I grabbed it just in case. McMillan told me they don't have an inlet program for the KMW...

 

[powdahound76]

Wait for Mr Cross to chime in…..

 

[Midwestside]

I can’t tell what’s going on with those green boxes, but I had asked terry a similar question here around post #5: https://www.snipershide.com/shooting/threads/hawkins-m5-inlet-question.7110052/#post-10010591

 

[LeftyJason]

My in-progress McMillan A5 was ordered with Surgeon SA DBM inlet. I have both Surgeon DBM and KMW MK-I, Gen II DBM. I thought the two DBM had the same inlet. However, mocking them up with my LPA Fuzion action, it looks like there is a difference. Will this be an issue if my stock is inlet for Surgeon?

And even if it isn't an issue, if my rifle smith beds my action/stock/dbm for one, and I want to install the other, I'm guessing it won't work?

SURGEON:

KMW:

I would pull out some calipers and measure the green boxes again. The kmw box seems off. It's more angled.

 

[FourT6and2]

I would pull out some calipers and measure the green boxes again. The kmw box seems off. It's more angled. View attachment 8001091

Not meant to be exact. Just to give an idea. The Surgeon is noticeably more angled. I'm not even the one who noticed it, my gf did and she knows nothing about guns.

 

[max1840]

Not meant to be exact. Just to give an idea. The Surgeon is noticeably more angled. I'm not even the one who noticed it, my gf did and she knows nothing about guns.

Marry her!

 

[Terry Cross]

On McM and CMS inlets, both have they been working.
If you or another shop actually beds the hardware with full perimeter contact bedding, the will not interchange.

Then again if you do a full bottom hardware bed with almost any brand hardware, you will likely not be able to interchange even the same brand hardware. Machined inlets are fairly forgiving inside the footprint. Full perimeter epoxy bedding is totally unforgiving, many times within the same brand/model hardware.

 

[FourT6and2]

On McM and CMS inlets, both have they been working.
If you or another shop actually beds the hardware with full perimeter contact bedding, the will not interchange.

Then again if you do a full bottom hardware bed with almost any brand hardware, you will likely not be able to interchange even the same brand hardware. Machined inlets are fairly forgiving inside the footprint. Full perimeter epoxy bedding is totally unforgiving, many times within the same brand/model hardware.

Got it, thanks. So your DBM should fit McMillan's Surgeon inlet. But once bedded, they won't be interchangeable.

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

I would honestly go for OTM bottom metal. Having owned or handled all the stuff on the market, its by far the nicest designed, best looking and easiest to use of them all.

Once people see it, they order it and sell their hawkins.

 

[Terry Cross]

I would honestly go for OTM bottom metal. Having owned or handled all the stuff on the market, its by far the nicest designed, best looking and easiest to use of them all.

Once people see it, they order it and sell their hawkins.

Your suggestion is not an option.
The OTM as well as the Hawkins need an M5 pattern inlet so neither could be a candidate for his stock.

.

 

[FourT6and2]

I would honestly go for OTM bottom metal. Having owned or handled all the stuff on the market, its by far the nicest designed, best looking and easiest to use of them all.

Once people see it, they order it and sell their hawkins.

Not that relevant, thanks.

It's a nice *looking* DBM, but it's just a Surgeon/KMW clone. Same mag release design. And it's not compatible with AW mags, so how is it better in any way, shape, or form?

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

Not that relevant, thanks.

It's a nice *looking* DBM, but it's just a Surgeon/KMW clone. Same mag release design. And it's not compatible with AW mags, so how is it better in any way, shape, or form?

And how many people are using either today compared to hawkins/ M5 pattern.? All 7 people on snipershide? There is a reason mcmillian stocks and surgeon (who had all of their brain power leave the company years ago, cough* Impact* when they sold off the company to cash out) are non factors today.

The Milling, radius and controls are superior to any other bottom metal. If you used them, you would understand. Every single person who has finger fucked it agrees. Most go out and order one imediataley and when you see hawkins BM for sale on the hide, this is usually why.

Its not a clone of anything. There is only so many ways to make an M5 pattern bottom metal.

 

[FourT6and2]

And how many people are using either today compared to hawkins/ M5 pattern.? All 7 people on snipershide? There is a reason mcmillian stocks and surgeon (who had all of their brain power leave the company years ago, cough* Impact* when they sold off the company to cash out) are non factors today.

The Milling, radius and controls are superior to any other bottom metal. If you used them, you would understand. Every single person who has finger fucked it agrees. Most go out and order one imediataley and when you see hawkins BM for sale on the hide, this is usually why.

Its not a clone of anything. There is only so many ways to make an M5 pattern bottom metal.

Not compatible with AW mags = useless for me. I don't care how many people use them. This thread is about Surgeon/KWM because that is what my stock is inlet for. I've been using Surgeon DBM on my rifles for years and I have never had a single problem. M5 pattern DBM has absolutely nothing to do with my situation.

 

[Gil P.]

Yeah, the KMW looks to be the nicer DBM, having both here side by side. However my stock is inlet for Surgeon. I don't know if the different angle will matter or not. My smith will bed it either way.

I initially ordered stock inlet for Surgeon because that's just what I've always used. But then I couldn't get my hands on a Surgeon DBM, so I purchased the KMW. But then the Surgeon became available and I grabbed it just in case. McMillan told me they don't have an inlet program for the KMW...

They don't? My A6 works just fine with the KMW DBM, and I specified the KMW inlet on my order sheet.

I know they don't inlet for the KMW Loggerhead ACP... but Joe Ducos took care of that for me.

 

[FourT6and2]

They don't? My A6 works just fine with the KMW DBM, and I specified the KMW inlet on my order sheet.

I know they don't inlet for the KMW Loggerhead ACP... but Joe Ducos took care of that for me.

Correct. I spoke to McMillan a few weeks ago. They said a customer had just sent in a MK-1 KMW DBM and they were in the process of creating an inlet program for it, for the first time. They had it physically on their desk while on the phone with me. They would not, or could not, confirm if it would work with Surgeon pattern inlet and told me to call KMW.

 

[TheOE800]

And how many people are using either today compared to hawkins/ M5 pattern.? All 7 people on snipershide? There is a reason mcmillian stocks and surgeon (who had all of their brain power leave the company years ago, cough* Impact* when they sold off the company to cash out) are non factors today.

The Milling, radius and controls are superior to any other bottom metal. If you used them, you would understand. Every single person who has finger fucked it agrees. Most go out and order one imediataley and when you see hawkins BM for sale on the hide, this is usually why.

Its not a clone of anything. There is only so many ways to make an M5 pattern bottom metal.

I’ve seen OTM that wouldn’t drop free reliably depending on the angle of the rifle. Must have been something about the dims since it did it negative and positive angled, or perhaps the pressure of the magazine against the mag latch.