Looking for some feedback for my first 6.5 cm build . I have a mcmillian M40a4 stock inletted for a rem 700 , im looking at putting a deviance elite or curtis vector action into the stock but cant decide on which . I plan on using either a hawk hills or bartlein barrel 26 inch heavy palma . Any advice / feed back on experince using these actions would help greatly
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Defiance or curtis action choice
- Thread starter BILLLONGTHOOTH
- Start date
The Vector looks like a good option if you’re interested in swapping/changing to different barrels. It’s also a 60 degree 3 lug.
Defiance is a standard 2 lug.
I’m sure both are excellent actions. I have recently been shooting a GAP Templar action which is machines by deviant. Worked fine.
What features peaked your interest about these actions?
Defiance is a standard 2 lug.
I’m sure both are excellent actions. I have recently been shooting a GAP Templar action which is machines by deviant. Worked fine.
What features peaked your interest about these actions?
Ive owned both a Defiance Deviant and Curtis Axiom, which are the pretty similair to the Defiance Elite and Curtis Vector respectively. The Curtis bolt lift was a tiny bit heavier but it was only 60 degrees instead of 90 degrees. Tolerances are a little tighter in the Defiance, which can be a good thing or a bad thing. But both feel butter smooth.
Ive also had a Bighorn TL3 with a DLC coating and I would pick that before those two. Just my opinion.
Now, honestly if i were to get a new action, i recently decided i would pick up an Impact Precision. I plan to buy one soonish. I felt one at SHOT show way back in 2015 when it was first getting made and it was real nice. It compared in quality to the Defiance, but i think the Impact is built better for tactical match/field use. And it seems to only have gotten even better since i last felt it!
The other option would be an ARC Nucleus. I have one on preorder and am excited to see how it feels. Its probably the most unique of the action of the bunch.
These are just my opinions. Lemme know if theres a specific question/comparison you have regarding the Defiance, Curris, and Bighorn. Aside from personal preference, it just boils down to what features and price you like.
Ive also had a Bighorn TL3 with a DLC coating and I would pick that before those two. Just my opinion.
Now, honestly if i were to get a new action, i recently decided i would pick up an Impact Precision. I plan to buy one soonish. I felt one at SHOT show way back in 2015 when it was first getting made and it was real nice. It compared in quality to the Defiance, but i think the Impact is built better for tactical match/field use. And it seems to only have gotten even better since i last felt it!
The other option would be an ARC Nucleus. I have one on preorder and am excited to see how it feels. Its probably the most unique of the action of the bunch.
These are just my opinions. Lemme know if theres a specific question/comparison you have regarding the Defiance, Curris, and Bighorn. Aside from personal preference, it just boils down to what features and price you like.
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I would like the quick barrel change esp considering i am currently in 29 palms ca so driving back n forth to a gunsmith is a bit far for me . I deff like the dlc coating
You can swap out your own barrel with some simple tools - barrel vice, torque wrench and action wrench (and some anti-sieze compound). Unless you are wanting the ability to change out multiple barrels in a day, there really is no need for a switch barrel setup. And most people who get a switch barrel setup for the "convenience of swapping barrels" end up only really shooting one barrel, as it is not as convenient as sticking to one caetridge. It is a really simple process.
Some actions, such as the Impact and TL3, have gunsmiths which will spin up a shouldered barrel without ever seeing the action as the tolerances are held so tight - so no gunsmith required. Other gunsmiths will keep your action measurements on file, and after seeing it once they can spin you up a barrel without having your action again. So either way, no gunsmith required.
And if you really want to have a switch barrel setup regardless, then you can turn pretty much any action into a switch barrel with the Bar-Loc, bug nut, switch lug, etc.
I wouldn't let the switch barrel thing be a big driver in your decision, unless you REALLY want that capability. To me it's another thing to fail, I prefer the simplicity and reliability of a shouldered barrel. But that's my personal preference. I would hate to have to worry about an allen screws coming loose and subsequently my barrel coming loose. It's just another failure point, and there definitely is the potential if you are constantly switching out barrels.
What is the purpose of this rifle? Casual range shooting? PRS/NRL comps? Hunting?
That will help steer the conversation. Many people on this board have experience with multiple action brands and models. Some actions are better suited to certain tasks than others.
That will help steer the conversation. Many people on this board have experience with multiple action brands and models. Some actions are better suited to certain tasks than others.
Srry i should of mentioned before the purpose is for PRS. Ive competed in Matches while in the Marine Corps and really fell in love with it so i want to continue to compete
Is it safe to assume then that you want to have a switch barrel system so you can swap between 6mm and .223 so you can have a "training rifle" without purchasing a second rifle entirely?
If that's the case, any system that uses a barrel nut (Rem/Age, Savage Pre-fits, etc.) would probably be sufficient since you wouldn't shoot .223 and 6mm in the same trip to the range. It would also help you since you'll burn out the 6mm barrels pretty quickly (1 or more a year depending on how many matches you shoot) and minimize your cost and downtime when you have to get a new barrel.
Correct so that is why the curtis vector had my interest but before i pull the trigger to drop money i want to make sure that is what i want . I havent found much info on there quick barrel swap system
Do you have any plans to shoot both 6mm and .223 in the same range trip with regularity? If you don't plan to shoot both of them on the same range trip all the time, then there isn't a real advantage to a quick barrel swap system over a barrel nut system or even standard shouldered barrels that you can screw on and off yourself.
As others mentioned though, if you do want a quick barrel swap system to shoot multiple calibers in the same day (a number of people say they want this, but then later end up always shooting one or the other) you can always get a BarLoc system (for barrel nuts or shouldered barrels). I would recommend you pick your action not based on a barrel swap system it offers, but based on the features of the action itself since now there are options to add quick barrel change capabilities to any action you buy.
I plan on shooting 6.5 for matches then switch to a 308 for pratice. I will not be shooting them in the same day .
In that case definitely just buy whatever action has the best features for you ignoring the barrel change aspect. You can easily swap out a barrel in about 5-10 minutes with a vice and the proper tools at home before you head out to go shooting (or the night before, depending on your preference).
I'm currently planning a build this summer on a Nucleus action because I like the combo of a 3-lug action with controlled round feed, along with the other little bits and pieces from the ARC actions (the toroidal lugs, inertial ejector, and M98-esque extractor). If I was going to build a 2 lug action though I think it'd be a toss up for me between an Impact Precision or Lone Peak if I wanted something super smooth, or a TL3 and a Mausingfield if I wanted the controlled round feel.
Don't get me wrong, Defiance actions are great and all but they're less than ideal for PRS competitions in Colorado/Utah because of all the dust that usually blows around here. I've seen people have trouble with them when they get dirt or grit in the actions and it starts to bind up a bit (I've felt the actions too, they get stiff and gritty when dirty), but I've never seen problems with the actions I mentioned for 2 round actions.
If you're out on the East coast though it doesn't really matter as much, since the wind, dirt, and dust aren't as much of a problem out there. Just make sure that you get a rifle cover (like this one) if you shoot in the wind where dust and dirt can blow around if you're going to get the Defiance.
I agree with ThePretzel. My match gun is a Mausingfield action which has a 6BRA and a 6.5 Creedmoor barrel. For any training sessions or general shooting/hunting, I have the easy ability to put my 6.5 Creedmoor shouldered barrel on with a couple of tools at home. For matches, I can throw the 6BRA barrel on. It takes about 5-10 minutes to do, it is a very simple process.
Copied is bit of a lie. Tell yourself what you want but the only similarity is that the same guy helped developed both. ^^^ this guy is just a little upset that Impact is starting to outshine his investment. There are plenty of differences in the two and really only improvements to make Impact stand out.Impact is awesome because they copied surgeon....
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Investment? You are such an ignorant fool. And what guy developed both? Wade? That is a joke. There is nothing unique about this action.
[/QUOTE]
Oh and I see you are from Oklahoma so you are probably one of Wade's groupies that gives you product.
Truth hurts doesn’t it. No need to start the name calling. Are you saying wade didn’t help develop both?! You my friend are way misinformed if you believe that! I won’t reply anymore on this guys thread bc he didn’t ask for any of this so I’ll just let you be upset that Impact is outshining your “investment” money man. Have a good one buddy. And sorry to the op.
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Truth hurts doesn’t it. No need to start the name calling. Are you saying wade didn’t help develop both?! You my friend are way misinformed if you believe that! I won’t reply anymore on this guys thread bc he didn’t ask for any of this so I’ll just let you be upset that Impact is outshining your “investment” money man. Have a good one buddy. And sorry to the op.[/QUOTE]
You have no idea what you are talking about. Wade was a friend of one of the original guys that helped Preston Pritchett when Preston started Surgeon. Wade was hired as a customer service rep and quit after he left a path of destruction. So if Wade told you he helped develop that product in any way you were lied to. Wade is an awesome shooter but he knows the truth about his involvement and it's not even close to what you say.
Curtis Axiom with the 60 degree bolt throw is awesome. Not to mention mine is slick as shit. Haven’t had my hands on the vector yet but I don’t see how you can go wrong with it.
Defiance is more finicky when it comes to the bolt binding up. If I dont pull it back with the arm of the bolt and push it back with my thumb on the back of the arm it will bind up and not feed right. It stinks because the barrel it is screwed to is stupid accurate.
I have an older Defiance which used to be my match gun. It would bind up all the time in the fine dust in certain matches. I have a newer Defiance Deviant which is Ionbonded for my ELR rig (.300NM) which feels awesome, but it hasn't been tested in fine dusty conditions.
I like Defiance actions, but I'm not sure if I would trust them for a match action which is going to see super fine dust. Not with the availability of other actions out there now.
I like Defiance actions, but I'm not sure if I would trust them for a match action which is going to see super fine dust. Not with the availability of other actions out there now.
You have no idea what you are talking about. Wade was a friend of one of the original guys that helped Preston Pritchett when Preston started Surgeon. Wade was hired as a customer service rep and quit after he left a path of destruction. So if Wade told you he helped develop that product in any way you were lied to. Wade is an awesome shooter but he knows the truth about his involvement and it's not even close to what you say.[/QUOTE]
I haven't posted on SH in years and I mean no disrespect to Defiance or Curtis Customs by posting in this thread.
Nexusfire,
Let me ask you a few questions: Which would you believe more, a conversation whispered to you alone or articles of incorporation filed with the state? Once again whispered secrets or original design drawings? I'll make you an offer. If you and your information source would like to come meet with Preston and me face to face we'll show both of you the documents, and tell both of you what really happened. You'll both learn something because only two of us were involved at that time. I'll buy the steaks and the drinks and all I'll ask for is your public apology. You can contact me through my website to make arrangements. Otherwise, I'll know that you're just stirring and not interested in the truth. I will not bat back and forth on a forum with someone who appears to consider it a hobby.
Wade
I haven't posted on SH in years and I mean no disrespect to Defiance or Curtis Customs by posting in this thread.
Nexusfire,
Let me ask you a few questions: Which would you believe more, a conversation whispered to you alone or articles of incorporation filed with the state? Once again whispered secrets or original design drawings? I'll make you an offer. If you and your information source would like to come meet with Preston and me face to face we'll show both of you the documents, and tell both of you what really happened. You'll both learn something because only two of us were involved at that time. I'll buy the steaks and the drinks and all I'll ask for is your public apology. You can contact me through my website to make arrangements. Otherwise, I'll know that you're just stirring and not interested in the truth. I will not bat back and forth on a forum with someone who appears to consider it a hobby.
Wade[/QUOTE]
Lol you and I both know the truth. Just because you post on the interwebs doesn't make it true.
Well uhh.... So yeah the Impact Precision and ARC Nucleus look cool.
As others have said, switch barrel is possible with many of these set ups, and unless you plan to swap caliber in-field, then there's no need for anything more than a pre-chambered barrel with a wrench and a vise. The new ARC Barloc device allows you to turn a lot of different actions into switch barrel set-ups, but it is most at home on a Nucleus action imo.
As others have said, switch barrel is possible with many of these set ups, and unless you plan to swap caliber in-field, then there's no need for anything more than a pre-chambered barrel with a wrench and a vise. The new ARC Barloc device allows you to turn a lot of different actions into switch barrel set-ups, but it is most at home on a Nucleus action imo.
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Why don't you put your money where your mouth is then, instead of laughing at an offer from the man in question himself? Or at least offer up some reason (travel expenses, etc.) as to why it might be impractical for you? I get it if you're on the East coast and it's expensive, but it seems weird to just laugh off what appears to be a genuine offer so casually and claim the guy is lying outright without proof.
I'm being honest here, I'd jump at the chance to have steaks and drinks (at his expense, no less) just to get the chance to talk with him and pick his brain on a couple different topics. I'd probably just find a match somewhere down there to shoot while I was at it and skip some other match I was previously going to attend. Worst case you end up with a free dinner and a fun weekend, best case you end up with answers to questions you might have plus the rest.
All good points , man ill tell you this picking an action thing isnt easy haahahah ive started to look at impact actions and so far i like what im seeing but the specs on the action are a little hard to find. Or at least for me so ill put these details in and maybe some one with more experince and knowledge can help seeing as this is my first precision rifle build for prs matches . The stock that the action is goin to be placed in is a mcmillian m40a4 stock that has been glass bedded and inletted for the r700 for the Marine Corps . I am looking at either the deviant , curtis , surgeon, or inpact. Actions. I have learned that deviants dont run good in fine dust , and seeing that i am the good ole 29 stump area for a while where there is plenty of that fine grain dirt then that prob wont help me .
I've been shooting the Curtis Axiom for a year now. No issues and its slick as hell. Once you go 60* throw, you'll have a hard time going back to 90. I just put an old 700 back together and after a year of 60* throw, the 90 feels like I'm spinning the big wheel on the Price Is Right.
What specs are you needing on the Impact?
There is a thread on Impact actions with pics and more details in this section. Maybe this link will work. http://www.snipershide.com/shooting/threads/impact-precision-actions.6873075/
If your looking for smooth as glass, then Impact is where its at. Compare it to any of them and you will see what smooth is. It will run slick whether it’s clean or dirty.
There are a bunch of questions that have been answered over in that thread so check it out. My advise would be to go to match and ask some guys if you can put your hands on their rifles and see what you like. Maybe compare side by side that way. Most matches will have someone shooting all the actions you are looking at. Have a good one
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I was surprised when I saw this thread. I probably shouldn't chime in, but...
I just met Wade at the LR Shooters retreat last weekend; super nice, super humble guy. You can't help but like him. There were more Impacts on Foundation stocks than I've ever seen at one match.
I shoot an Axiom in a MPA Comp chassis. I love it, have nothing but positive things to say about it, and would never part with it, but I'm having Wade do my next build with his action in a Foundation stock. I don't go up and down the line at a match with a hundred rifles drooling over anything but those. I love the weight and the way they feel and handle. I have been squaded several times with guys shooting them (guys who attend a lot of matches) and they have all raved about how good they are.
I don't know why you're talking smack, and I certainly don't claim to know anything, but it doesn't even make sense or sound plausible. You are basically claiming that a non-machinist/non-engineer customer service person, who is answering phones and can't even do that right (?), starts a new company that builds custom actions and is immediately successful and producing actions appearing in the top rifle matches in the hands of the top shooters in the country...how? Are you leaving out the part where he got bonked on the head and woke up a completely different person?
I just met Wade at the LR Shooters retreat last weekend; super nice, super humble guy. You can't help but like him. There were more Impacts on Foundation stocks than I've ever seen at one match.
I shoot an Axiom in a MPA Comp chassis. I love it, have nothing but positive things to say about it, and would never part with it, but I'm having Wade do my next build with his action in a Foundation stock. I don't go up and down the line at a match with a hundred rifles drooling over anything but those. I love the weight and the way they feel and handle. I have been squaded several times with guys shooting them (guys who attend a lot of matches) and they have all raved about how good they are.
I don't know why you're talking smack, and I certainly don't claim to know anything, but it doesn't even make sense or sound plausible. You are basically claiming that a non-machinist/non-engineer customer service person, who is answering phones and can't even do that right (?), starts a new company that builds custom actions and is immediately successful and producing actions appearing in the top rifle matches in the hands of the top shooters in the country...how? Are you leaving out the part where he got bonked on the head and woke up a completely different person?
I have a Defiance Elite and am shooting 6Br out of it. The action is tight and it did get sticky when I shot at Rock Lake a couple of weekends ago. There were a tonne of Defiance actions (or the house brand variants) and I didn't hear of any going down over the course of the match. I have a feeling that running them dry (except for a little grease on the lugs) would have helped. Coming off of an AI I am not used to things getting sticky. However, I do have a buddy that was shooting an AI at the JC steel match and it bound up on him as well.
A lot of the actions seemed to get a bit sticky in the dust but as someone said a quick wipe and they were back in service.
I think you would be happy with a Defiance, I personally prefer a 90 degree throw after running a 60 degree for over a year. I have also never heard bad thing about the Curtis Customs.
I think at the end of the day there are just a lot of great options out there.
A lot of the actions seemed to get a bit sticky in the dust but as someone said a quick wipe and they were back in service.
I think you would be happy with a Defiance, I personally prefer a 90 degree throw after running a 60 degree for over a year. I have also never heard bad thing about the Curtis Customs.
I think at the end of the day there are just a lot of great options out there.
I run a heavy weight oil on my defiance and surgeons, and both of them will get "slow" feeling by the end of a dusty match if I don't wipe them off. They still function great and don't bind. DLC seems to help, nitriding seems to help as well.
I had no idea that Impact had any relation to Surgeon, but after playing with one I thought it felt almost like a cross between surgeon and defiance in terms of bolt lift and operation. Now I see why.
I had no idea that Impact had any relation to Surgeon, but after playing with one I thought it felt almost like a cross between surgeon and defiance in terms of bolt lift and operation. Now I see why.
before i went to the DLC i used a silicone spray that went on wet outta the can but dried quick and left a dry film...you can get it at any auto parts store for $3-$4 bucks a can just make sure you spray a little on your finger and it evaporates because there are several types that dont dry...just pull the bolt and hose it down as needed.
I bought a can of this to try, but I haven't yet.
https://m.grainger.com/mobile/produ...9907!&ef_id=WccEmwAAAhlW3UBN:20180514175100:s
https://m.grainger.com/mobile/produ...9907!&ef_id=WccEmwAAAhlW3UBN:20180514175100:s
i wonder if it leaves a powder on the surface...if so i wonder if it would get in the trigger?
id spray it on something first and make sure it dont...i used lock ease once and the graphite got in the trigger and it locked up thats when i started using the dry silicone spray.
id spray it on something first and make sure it dont...i used lock ease once and the graphite got in the trigger and it locked up thats when i started using the dry silicone spray.
Just use one and you will know within the first few cyles of the bolt.
But,
Comes Nitrided, rides on anti bind rails for smoother feel, comes standard with m-16 extractor, utilizes a trigger hanger for easy change and allows adjustment for different trigger brands allowing better sear engagement for the multitude of triggers and better timing of the bolt for easy lift and close.
Here is a thread and you can see what others have to say about them. http://www.snipershide.com/shooting/threads/impact-precision-actions.6873075/
The one thing that everyone seems to say is simply how butter smooth and well timed the action is. Shoot a match all day and send a hundred rounds through it and it will feel just a smooth as the beginning of the day without ever taking your bolt out and cleaning it.
A few in no particular order:
1. Better primary extraction geometry
2. Interrupted bolt fluting to prevent contact with mag lips (if resting on the magazine and in a chassis that allows it)
3. Headspace and index tolerance held on bolt and receiver to allow interchangeable barrels even when changing family of cartridges. Barrels in stock.
4. Better support of cocking piece by the receiver
5. Trigger hanger to allow easy timing, and trigger changes
6. Better extractor
7. Better surface finish
8. Stronger bolt handle attachment
9. Better ejection port design to move case off axis from port
10. Black nitride for harder, smoother moving parts, ready to shoot, not blasted raw
11. Actions assembled and tested before shipping
12. Bolt stop fence above water line to allow simpler fit in stocks/chassis
13. Higher bolt root design requires less or no fitting in 700 chassis
14. More consistent trigger to cocking piece height.
15. Better angularity tolerance: bolt ID to OD
16. Better angularity tolerance: receiver to bolt raceway
17. More reliable mag feed port design
18. More rigid tang design
Wade
Thank you very much for the info, I have loved my Surgeons over the yrs then bought a TL2, (nice action no issues) but just wasn’t my Surgeons, then went the Tempest route for 3 lug ( nice but never again) Wade please tell me the trigger hanger set up is not the same as a Tempest cause that will be a game killer for me. I must say it sounds what I’m looking for, A Surgeon with vast improvements barring hanger night mares, then I’m sold
Thanks again just need more assurance over this hanger set up?
This thread is so far de-railed, I hate to keep at it, but:
a) I don't know what was contributing to your tempest hanger issues.
b) the impact action appears to have a more simplified installation than the Tempest hanger.
It has two screws-one on each end of it (rather than just one). There is no tab that requires hand-filing for a tight fit at one end of the hanger.
As previously mentioned, the hangers have numerical values stamped on them, so you can easily "bolt-on" the aftermarket trigger of your preference (after pinning it to the hanger) and have it timed correctly with no hand fitting/filing.
It's a pretty slick simple system and as long as you have clearance for the hanger in your stock/chassis (as true with any setup), I would not forsee you having any problems.
As with every action, I'm sure there are some trolls that would argue the hanger is more susceptible to coming loose than a standard pinned connection. I don't know what Impact's rec' is on loctite (type) for the hanger screws, so I won't comment on that, but I have not heard of any being problematic in that area.
