Didn't stick the landing...

[NoDopes]

 

[Hecouldgoalltheway]

I wonder how many of them turned down the supplemental insurance when they bought their tickets. I'll bet they wish they hadn't.

 

[Makinchips208]

They should have turned on the “no smoking” light.

 

[myronman3]

wonder if the flight crew Sum Ting Wong, Wi-tu Low, Ho Lee Fuk, and Bang Ting-ouh are at it again??

bad Jeju....

 

[pmclaine]

I’m wondering if they forgot a landing checklist item……

 

[NoDopes]

I read landing gear failure. But, budget airline is probably budget maint.

 

[Expert684]

I’m wondering if they forgot a landing checklist item……

Landing gear failed due to too much maintenance! I deal with cheap ass fuckers all day! I have a part 145 shop, trust me I know.

 

[Bender]

Who knew something about the Clintons in Korea?

 

[clcustom1911]

I say the pilot stuck the landing... directly into the wall. I had hope for them to skid to a stop. The wall had other plans.

 

[Alphatreedog]

wonder if the flight crew Sum Ting Wong, Wi-tu Low, Ho Lee Fuk, and Bang Ting-ouh are at it again??

bad Jeju....

Wot Ti Phuc .

 

[thejeep]

It was probably Wee lee hot

 

[DarnYankeeUSMC]

Russia returning the favor for the NORKS sending troops to help fight Ukraine?

 

[BoilerUP]

What.The.Actual.Fuck.

A no gear, no flap, possibly no slat (can't tell) landing at a VERY high rate of speed to a 2800m (9100') runway with big-ass walls maybe a thousand feet off either end???

I'm not 737 typed but I can't imagine a circumstance (short of maybe a cockpit fire) where you wouldn't take the time to hold, run checklists, manually extend the gear, burn down fuel, recover as many systems as you could, and go looking for a longer runway.

 

[BoilerUP]

Oh, and this video makes it look like the aircraft didn't touch down until halfway down the runway...

 

[sirhrmechanic]

Inflight meal?

What? 14 posts and not one of you???

Sirhr

 

[Tempest 455]

Who puts a concrete barrier at the end of a runway? They do I guess...

Did the same in drag racing back in the day until they figured out a sand trap and net was a better idea.

 

[NoDopes]

Fire roasted beef sticks.

 

[MadDuner]

They landed so long and fast - tires and landing gear would not have helped.

 

[TexPatriot]

Isn't South Korea the good Koreans without the fat little tyrant and stomach worms?

 

[WaywardSon]

If you build it, Asians will crash into it.................

 

[thejeep]

Maybe they were Mongolian.

 

[101st]

Ohhhh! It slide-a to faaa!

 

[KYAggie]

Fire roasted beef sticks.

This is the best synopsis I’ve seen so far on the crash. Big picture to me is that a possible bird strike followed by gross pilot error and negligence will likely be the determined cause of the event. I have a whole list of questions as it seems they ignored several critical emergency/abnormal checklists and brought the plane in for a no flap, no slat, no spoilers, no gear, landing in which they touched down more than halfway down the runway; what could possibly go wrong doing that?

 

[TexPatriot]

I bet that Asian pilot crossed two runways without using his signal.

 

[Ronws]

Fire roasted beef sticks.

Sous Korea.

 

[st1650]

This is the best synopsis I’ve seen so far on the crash. Big picture to me is that a possible bird strike followed by gross pilot error and negligence will likely be the determined cause of the event. I have a whole list of questions as it seems they ignored several critical emergency/abnormal checklists and brought the plane in for a no flap, no slat, to spoilers, no gear, landing in which they touched down more than halfway down the runway; what could possibly go wrong doing that?

As a 737-800 typed pilot.
This is most likely correct. Panic, zero crew coordination, wrong identification of the problem and rush to get down on the ground.
Also keep in mind the Korean airline culture is extremely bad, CRM non existent. The capt is God and cannot be challenged especially if he’s ex-AF or from high society and if he decides to plow this aluminum tube into the side of the hills then the first officer will closes his eyes and thinks about flowers until the impact.

Now unto this accident. Bit of system knowledge, even a full loss of hydraulics, you get flaps 15, leading edge devices , manual gear extension and alternate brakes. It’s a bitch to fly but it’s still absolutely doable.

This is clearly a crew that panicked, didn’t run any checklists, didn’t run any landing distance numbers and completely lost their situational awareness of what was the initial problem. In many ways it’s very similar to the Cargojet/Amazon PrimeAir B767 that overran YVR couple of weeks ago: minor flap issue on the approach, crew panics, doesn’t take time to run checklists, continue the approach, lands long, fast, don’t manually deploy speed brakes and then overruns by almost 1900’ which could have been fatal if they landed on the 26R or almost any other runway in any big city airport.

It’s not impossible that a bird strike can trigger an engine severe damage that compounds into a loss of hydraulics. It’s still not that big of a deal but Boeings 737NG and MAX are of an older design that requires the pilot to be a thinker and understands what happens, unlike the more modern triple hydraulics with digital checklists and crew alert systems based airliners such as the 777/787 and all Airbuses. These modern airliners are much more suited to third world and (some) Asian countries but the accountants just love the 737-800 for its lower CASM to the Airbus 320.

It will get worse before it gets better. No doubt.

 

[101st]

I bet that Asian pilot crossed two runways without using his signal.

Rike this?

 

[KYAggie]

Now unto this accident. Bit of system knowledge, even a full loss of hydraulics, you get flaps 15, leading edge devices , manual gear extension and alternate brakes. It’s a bitch to fly but it’s still absolutely doable.

Do you have enough control in manual reversion if you have lost an engine?

Absolutely looks like they blew off the checklists and headed in, which would be consistent with the Asian culture of the captain is “god” and can not be questioned, just like you said. Reminds me of the Asiana 214 crash at SFO where three other pilots watched the captain fly a perfectly good 777 into the ground short of the runway for the exact same stupid reasons; can’t step on the captains pride and question his actions.

I’ve said for many years it’s bad idea to get on a jet “piloted” by a flight crew who was not born in and raised in a 1st world western country. We are pilots, they are systems managers, not pilots, and routinely fly perfectly flyable aircraft into the ground and kill everyone due to a gross lack of hands on piloting skill and proper decision making, not to mention their culture getting in the way.

 

[BoilerUP]

I've seen a report somewhere (can't find it now) that after they went around on their first landing attempt, this no-anything landing was made literally just minutes later - like just 3-4 minutes later. If accurate, that's basically a 90-270 right back around to final.

If the cockpit wasn't burning and/or full of smoke, I can't see any compelling reason to not run every f'n checklist in the QRH to get as much recovered as possible prior to a landing attempt. Even in a low fuel state there's always time to GET THE FUCKIN' RUBBER STOPPERS DOWN.

No flap/slat is a VERY bad day...no flap/slat AND no gear? Ooofff

 

[NoDopes]

Since this is a Boeing plane I'm assuming there will be followup report eventually?

 

[st1650]

Do you have enough control in manual reversion if you have lost an engine?

Absolutely looks like they blew off the checklists and headed in, which would be consistent with the Asian culture of the captain is “god” and can not be questioned, just like you said. Reminds me of the Asiana 214 crash at SFO where three other pilots watched the captain fly a perfectly good 777 into the ground short of the runway for the exact same stupid reasons; can’t step on the captains pride and question his actions.

I’ve said for many years it’s bad idea to get on a jet “piloted” by a flight crew who was not born in and raised in a 1st world western country. We are pilots, they are systems managers, not pilots, and routinely fly perfectly flyable aircraft into the ground and kill everyone due to a gross lack of hands on piloting skill and proper decision making, not to mention their culture getting in the way.

Yes. 737 on one engine in manual reversion is flyable (although a real shitty day at the office because now you have to deal with the yaw of asymmetrical thrust but the 737 has tons of rudder authority).
Too bad I just literally came off my recurrent check ride last week, it would have been interesting to try for sure.

That being said I don’t believe they had full loss of hydraulics. If the sequence of event was that they went around, hit birds and then came back to land 5min later I don’t see any scenarios where they would have completely lost all their hydraulic fluid, that’s just way too quick.

As for Korean culture, Asiana is the classic where a bunch of highly “experienced” crews (capt, training capt, line check capt, etc) flies a perfectly good airplane that was designed to be dummy proof into the ground and it showed their complete lack of understanding on how the automation works.
There’s plenty of other examples, it would take forever to list them all but: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_Air_incidents_and_accidents

Then you have the pilot vs automation manager mentality.
Most airline pilots in USA, Canada and Australia came from either military or through turboprops, charter, bush, etc. There used to be a time not that long ago that by the time you’d get to a major airline, as a year 1 first officer, you’d already have 5000 hours of experience, flying turbo props in regionals careers through shitty weather with minimal automation. Those who couldn’t do it would wash out and go do something else. Nothing builds airmanship like flying a metroliner II in the middle of the night in mountainous terrain with heavy snow and land on a short slippery runway after a non precision approach.

When that guy transitions to the airline, even though it’s a completely different environment, that experience and decision making carries with him and all he has to focus is to learn the airplane itself and the company procedures.

The problem is that the rest of the world picks cadets, and train them minimally to the level that they can pass a 737 or 320 check ride. They’re not taught to fly or think. They’re taught to memorize and the decision making is nothing more than if/then/else algorithm and the burden of all the decision making solely rest on the capt shoulder as opposed to any western airline where the task is 50/50 but with the capt ultimately responsible for the final say.

The whole cadet/low iq pilot philosophy works as long as the plane is designed for double digit iq. The autopilot goes on at 50’ after takeoff and stays on until 50’ before landing (or an autoland).

The 737NG/MAX is not a plane designed for these kind of “automation managers” and that’s one of the reasons why it’s got much worse incident statistics in non-western countries than here. The MCAS was a terrible design, sure, but it was nothing more than a runaway stab trim drill. It happened to me once on the line. Non event, didn’t even declared an emergency.

 

[Milf Dots]

Fair- Tu- Park

 

[Stevo86]

Yes. 737 on one engine in manual reversion is flyable (although a real shitty day at the office because now you have to deal with the yaw of asymmetrical thrust but the 737 has tons of rudder authority).
Too bad I just literally came off my recurrent check ride last week, it would have been interesting to try for sure.

That being said I don’t believe they had full loss of hydraulics. If the sequence of event was that they went around, hit birds and then came back to land 5min later I don’t see any scenarios where they would have completely lost all their hydraulic fluid, that’s just way too quick.

As for Korean culture, Asiana is the classic where a bunch of highly “experienced” crews (capt, training capt, line check capt, etc) flies a perfectly good airplane that was designed to be dummy proof into the ground and it showed their complete lack of understanding on how the automation works.
There’s plenty of other examples, it would take forever to list them all but: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_Air_incidents_and_accidents

Then you have the pilot vs automation manager mentality.
Most airline pilots in USA, Canada and Australia came from either military or through turboprops, charter, bush, etc. There used to be a time not that long ago that by the time you’d get to a major airline, as a year 1 first officer, you’d already have 5000 hours of experience, flying turbo props in regionals careers through shitty weather with minimal automation. Those who couldn’t do it would wash out and go do something else. Nothing builds airmanship like flying a metroliner II in the middle of the night in mountainous terrain with heavy snow and land on a short slippery runway after a non precision approach.

When that guy transitions to the airline, even though it’s a completely different environment, that experience and decision making carries with him and all he has to focus is to learn the airplane itself and the company procedures.

The problem is that the rest of the world picks cadets, and train them minimally to the level that they can pass a 737 or 320 check ride. They’re not taught to fly or think. They’re taught to memorize and the decision making is nothing more than if/then/else algorithm and the burden of all the decision making solely rest on the capt shoulder as opposed to any western airline where the task is 50/50 but with the capt ultimately responsible for the final say.

The whole cadet/low iq pilot philosophy works as long as the plane is designed for double digit iq. The autopilot goes on at 50’ after takeoff and stays on until 50’ before landing (or an autoland).

The 737NG/MAX is not a plane designed for these kind of “automation managers” and that’s one of the reasons why it’s got much worse incident statistics in non-western countries than here. The MCAS was a terrible design, sure, but it was nothing more than a runaway stab trim drill. It happened to me once on the line. Non event, didn’t even declared an emergency.

So you mentioned auto land…. Is that used often? I gotta say it’s impressive as hell to watch flights come in and out of dfw and love field in almost zero visibility and land perfect.

 

[st1650]

So you mentioned auto land…. Is that used often? I gotta say it’s impressive as hell to watch flights come in and out of dfw and love field in almost zero visibility and land perfect.

Very rare, in my case I say about once every other year. It’s mandatory to use for low visibility CAT 2/3 approaches.
It lands crooked so there’s a 15kts crosswind limit and the auto throttle lags quite a bit so I wouldn’t want to use it in gusty winds/blowing snow with a slippery runway. The normal autopilot on a manual landing can be on as low as 50’ AGL and you start to flare at 20’ so really you’re already over the runway with visual references to to high intensity lights.

That being said there’s a growing trend of crews using auto lands on widebody flights of over 12+ hours as a fatigue management tool, not sure how I feel about that but I don’t do long hauls.

 

[KYAggie]

So you mentioned auto land…. Is that used often? I gotta say it’s impressive as hell to watch flights come in and out of dfw and love field in almost zero visibility and land perfect.

Like st1650 I probably do one every year or year and a half not counting annual training in the sim. Had to do one going into New Orleans early in the morning last week on the 26th due to fog. I fly the A-300 and it does a decent job although it sometimes likes to land to the left of the centerline. We don’t use it unless we have to.

 

[Stevo86]

Thank y’all for the info.

 

[Bender]

The mention of systems managers and god culture is spot on. It is how that flight in Japan, co pilot and crew watch the fuel levels drop just so the captain can go around one more time because he didn’t like the approach.

An American co pilot would have been screaming at the captain with spit coming out of his mouth to land the “fucking plane now” while slapping the fuel gages with his hand to make the point.

Instead we get look ahead and think of flowers co pilots.

The international airline community should ban all oriental first seats from flying until the culture changes. How the eff to actuaries at insurance companies quantify this? Or do they simply ignore it?

 

[BJames]

Where do you guys fly where you only see autolands once every other year?! I see 1 a month, November-April, every year.

 

[sirhrmechanic]

If you build it, Asians or Saudis will crash into it.................

FIFY

Sirhr

 

[Fx51LP308]

I've seen a report somewhere (can't find it now) that after they went around on their first landing attempt, this no-anything landing was made literally just minutes later - like just 3-4 minutes later. If accurate, that's basically a 90-270 right back around to final.

If the cockpit wasn't burning and/or full of smoke, I can't see any compelling reason to not run every f'n checklist in the QRH to get as much recovered as possible prior to a landing attempt. Even in a low fuel state there's always time to GET THE FUCKIN' RUBBER STOPPERS DOWN.

No flap/slat is a VERY bad day...no flap/slat AND no gear? Ooofff

I know. Just ask Col. Jim Caldwell (Rock Hudson) in the movie "A Gathering of Eagles." They're up in a BUFF taking on fuel when the fuel line broke and spilled all within the cockpit. Caldwell (Hudson) ordered a shutdown of all electrical equipment (including the radio). He had to make a careful decision to lower the gear, which he did, but he decided to land "flaps up," not wanting to press his luck. They did eventually land but they had to get out immediately in the event the hot brakes would spark a flame. The ground crew had the fire trucks spray foam all over so no harm, no foul.

I wish there was a clip of the landing but here's one of the takeoff/fueling.

 

[TexPatriot]

If you build it, Asians will crash into it.................

No shit. I remember taking Driver's Ed. in high school I was paired with another classmate, an Asian.
Practicing parallel parking, he crashed into the only light post in the middle of the school parking lot.

 

[KYAggie]

Where do you guys fly where you only see autolands once every other year?! I see 1 a month, November-April, every year.

You must be flying in the PNW.

 

[Alphatreedog]

Velly velly fast coming in . Rook rike dey dlag lacing .
Stop da prane !!! Stop da prane !!!

 

[BoilerUP]

I fly the A-300

Ancient Bus and the autoland hiyaka represent

 

[GreenGO Juan]

Sadly these poor souls got to drink from the fire hose.

 

[TicTacTex]

 

[BoilerUP]

 

[Im2bent]