die depth for full length resizing.

[Raivkka]

question,
when setting the die height, I put my ram all the way up, then screw down the full length resizing die until it touch's the ram and back off 1/2 turn?
Is this the correct setting? My reloads are sticking into the chamber where factory ammo is not.

The base of my re-sized case is .472, sammi dimension is .470. Should .002 excess cause a sticky situation?

 

[lash]

For comparison purposes, what are the factory rounds measuring that same spot on the base?

What dies are you using?

What brass are you using?

 

[Raivkka]

factory winchester that I bought today for a shoot test is .465.
Redding dies and using Sig Brass that I have only shot out of this rifle.

 

[918v]

question,
when setting the die height, I put my ram all the way up, then screw down the full length resizing die until it touch's the ram and back off 1/2 turn?
Is this the correct setting? My reloads are sticking into the chamber where factory ammo is not.

The base of my re-sized case is .472, sammi dimension is .470. Should .002 excess cause a sticky situation?

No that is not how you set up the die. Keep sizing the case by screwing the die deeper in small increments until you can close the bolt.

 

[Raivkka]

918, I am setting the brass size to the to the full length sizing die as this ammunition is for an AR10/Semi on a 6.5CM, not a bolt action rifle. If I am understanding you correctly.

 

[BuildingConceptsllc]

918, I am setting the brass size to the to the full length sizing die as this ammunition is for an AR10/Semi on a 6.5CM, not a bolt action rifle. If I am understanding you correctly.

Yeah but don't back it off a 1/2turn, that's too much. He's saying to use the die as you have it, but keep turning it maybe an 1/8th at a time deeper, (towards the ram), until it sizes a case that will fit in your chamber easily

 

[CK1.0]

You set up a die by setting it to bump the shoulder back your desired amount (3-4 thou for a semi-auto), doing so will also size the body further down towards the case head.

 

[alamo5000]

I bought some LE Wilson gauges with the micrometer top precisely for this exact purpose.

With those you don't have to guess. You can measure it. Especially on a semi auto this is probably the only viable path that I have found. It can very easily be implemented without much fuss to accomplish what you are setting out to accomplish.

 

[Maxduty]

Put a new case in your shell holder and adjust your die down til it touches the shoulder.Should get you in the neighborhood quickly

 

[918v]

918, I am setting the brass size to the to the full length sizing die as this ammunition is for an AR10/Semi on a 6.5CM, not a bolt action rifle. If I am understanding you correctly.

AR10 has a bolt that rotates to lock just like a bolt action. Take the upper off the lower. Put the case in the bolt behind the extractor and push forward on the bolt carrier to see if the bolt rotates to lock. Adjust the sizer die in small increments until you can do this.

 

[Haney]

AR10 has a bolt that rotates to lock just like a bolt action. Take the upper off the lower. Put the case in the bolt behind the extractor and push forward on the bolt carrier to see if the bolt rotates to lock. Adjust the sizer die in small increments until you can do this.

Works fine, if it's not an over-sized base messing with him .

 

[lash]

Works fine, if it's not an over-sized base messing with him .

Or a tight chamber. Chamber spec is .4714”

 

[Ronin22]

As referenced with the above advice to screw the die to touch the shell holder + 1/2 turn. I came to the understanding the 1/2 turn is to eliminate "slop" in a press. Touching the shell holder I should think is the minimum length one would want.

Bumping shoulders can be done with screwing die in until desired length achieved. I still think optimal shoulder bump recommendation is .002" bump for bolt gun, and .004 bump for gas gun.
Another method is using Redding Competition Die set. The shell holders are variance in thickness by .002". I guess consistency and ease of die set up is the benefit of this route. Seat die to touch shell holder and manipulate with shell holders, rather than arbitrarily screwing in a die and then losing that setting if the lock ring does not hold in place.

 

[918v]

Works fine, if it's not an over-sized base messing with him .

Yeah, oversized base, cuz all the AR10 chambers are soooooo tight.

 

[lash]

Yeah, oversized base, cuz all the AR10 chambers are soooooo tight.

I agree. While that’s not what said above, it has been my experience. Unless the OP knows what his headspace is and has properly addressed it, then discussion of a base being 0.0006” above spec (measured no doubt m, with calipers that have a higher variance than this as calibrated) should be secondary to shoulder headspace.

How about it OP. Following the headspace instructions above, what is your status?

 

[Haney]

Yeah, oversized base, cuz all the AR10 chambers are soooooo tight.

That's funny right there . I guess you think all rifles are the same ?

 

[Haney]

I agree. While that’s not what said above, it has been my experience. Unless the OP knows what his headspace is and has properly addressed it, then discussion of a base being 0.0006” above spec (measured no doubt m, with calipers that have a higher variance than this as calibrated) should be secondary to shoulder headspace.

How about it OP. Following the headspace instructions above, what is your status?

Who cares if you agree ? two wrongs make you guys look ignorant of the subject . You don't have a fucking clue of what's going on with the OPs issue yet you act like gods gift to the reloading world . What a joke .

 

[lash]

Who cares if you agree ? two wrongs make you guys look ignorant of the subject . You don't have a fucking clue of what's going on with the OPs issue yet you act like gods gift to the reloading world . What a joke .

Always around to shit in a thread, but never actually helpful to anyone, aren’t you?

Perhaps offering options for a person to explore can be more helpful than sitting smuggly behind your keyboard thinking you know better than everyone else, but not being helpful in any fucking way.

 

[padom]

OP, while trial and error is the way you have to go based off your posts... turn the die in an 1/8 turn at a time, resizing the case each time and checking in your rifle till it chambers as others have mentioned. There is no way to know exactly how much you have to set the die without hard measurements.

The exact method, if you want to do it right from the start, is to get a Hornady or SAC or Sinclair or whatever flavor you choose case headspace gauge. You would then take a piece of brass fired in your gun, deprime it, wipe it clean then measure that case with your case headspace comparator in your calipers and write that number down...

Then, for a semi-auto you would lube and size that case in your die, and screw the die down 1/8 turn at a time, measuring the case each time with your case headspace comparator until your sized case measures 0.003-0.005 LESS than your measured, fired case headspace. For example... if you fired a piece of brass in your gun, deprimed and cleaned it and measured it and lets say it measured 2.010... You would then size your case until it measured between 2.007 - 2.005...

But, saying you just turn the die in till it touches the shell plate then back off 1/2 turn and think thats gonna properly size your brass is a stab in the dark and most times not enough. My typical starting point on a new die that's not already setup is to turn it in till it touches the shellplate, then back off a 1/4 turn. Then from there, I will measure my brass and start sizing and turning the die down till I get 0.003-0.004 bump for my gassers and 0.002 bump for my bolt guns.

Hope this helps.

 

[supercorndogs]

Yep address the headspace first, if it still sticks then start worrying about body sizing.

.0006 is too small to be reliably measured with calipers.

 

[Raivkka]

Thanks all for the help, I'm really understanding the process a lot more now.
6 or 7 years of reloading for the .308 it was never an issue but this new 6.5 Lothar Barrel is more sensitive.
I always thought the full size die automatically set the shoulder at a specific length from the base while I now know that's not the case.

The factory brass worked well while my resized brass, some went in and some didn't.
The ones that didn't I had a hard time getting the case out of the chamber and had to smash the butt of the rifle while pulling back on the charging handle so the length must be way off for that chamber.

 

[918v]

What do your fired cases measure at the base, not at the edge of the extractor groove but at the most expanded part of the body?

 

[gigamortis]

As referenced with the above advice to screw the die to touch the shell holder + 1/2 turn. I came to the understanding the 1/2 turn is to eliminate "slop" in a press. Touching the shell holder I should think is the minimum length one would want.

Bumping shoulders can be done with screwing die in until desired length achieved. I still think optimal shoulder bump recommendation is .002" bump for bolt gun, and .004 bump for gas gun.
Another method is using Redding Competition Die set. The shell holders are variance in thickness by .002". I guess consistency and ease of die set up is the benefit of this route. Seat die to touch shell holder and manipulate with shell holders, rather than arbitrarily screwing in a die and then losing that setting if the lock ring does not hold in place.

This right here. The Redding competition shell holder set will let you get your headspacing dead on for every case. If your shell holder does not physically bear against the bottom of the sizing die, you will have variances depending on press flex and case lube variances.

 

[Raivkka]

This right here. The Redding competition shell holder set will let you get your headspacing dead on for every case. If your shell holder does not physically bear against the bottom of the sizing die, you will have variances depending on press flex and case lube variances.

If I put the sizing die all the way down to the shell holder, it creases the casing up by the shoulder. I have to have some space.

 

[918v]

You are putting too much lube on the case that’s why it do dat.

 

[Foul Mike]

Too much lube? Grease dent?

 

[Yondering]

question,
when setting the die height, I put my ram all the way up, then screw down the full length resizing die until it touch's the ram and back off 1/2 turn?
Is this the correct setting? My reloads are sticking into the chamber where factory ammo is not.

The base of my re-sized case is .472, sammi dimension is .470. Should .002 excess cause a sticky situation?

No. And it appears everyone to comment so far missed the bit about backing off, some are thinking you've turned in another 1/2 turn.

But the advice about turning in 1/8 turn at a time is a Fudd method that almost guarantees you too much headspace - 1/8 turn is good for .009" change in headspace. That's way too much.

OP, you'd be doing yourself a favor to understand how to measure shoulder bump. That'll tell you right away why your cases are sticking. Most likely you'll discover your sized brass shoulders are growing forward by .001-.002"; that happens when the die is sizing the OD down but not pushing them back.

Simple rule of thumb:
- For a bolt action, bump shoulders .001-.002".
- For an AR or other semi-auto, bump shoulders .003"-.004"

That will get you cases that fit and extract easily without excessive headspace. Most of the time when people claim to need small base dies, setting up a standard die this way will solve the problem. You might find this setting above the shell holder, touching, or with some amount of cam-over (and yeah, more cam-over does continue to sizer further); you really can't know until you measure.

 

[Yondering]

Measuring shoulder bump, for OP:

Deprimed but unsized brass fired in your rifle with full power loads (weak mouse fart loads will bump shoulders back too).
Zero the calipers on this brass. Check several pieces.

Same measurement on sized brass - this is your shoulder bump and headspace between that brass and the chamber in your rifle. Negative numbers are bump, positive numbers mean the die isn't pushing the shoulder back.

 

[lash]

@Yondering, we were all telling him he had too much headspace. I don’t think anyone thought he had turned the die in a 1/2 turn.

Otherwise, you are saying exactly what needs to be done. It appears, unless I’m corrected, that the OP has never measured headspace before.

@Raivkka, I highly suggest that you attempt to get your hands on a reloading manual. The basics will be in there. In the absence of that there is an excellent set of reloading lesson threads right here in this reloading section. This is the first one, dealing with brass prep:

Hand loading for Long range 1: brass case prep

Let's look at our cartridge brass first. Everything we do in hand loading is in the name of consistency, shot to shot. (Technically not "reloading" which is quick & expedient for the likes of short range speed shooting such as IPSC & Steel challenge shoots.) So there it is before us- a fine...

www.snipershide.com

While there are variations from these articles that some people use after they are very familiar with the process, these articles are very well written and complete. I can think of no others that will serve you better.

If you do not have a comparator to measure headspace, in a pinch you can use a pistol casing like .45 caliber or thereabouts.

Also, as already mentioned, the dents you are getting look a Lot like they were caused by too much lubricant.

 

[Yondering]

@Yondering, we were all telling him he had too much headspace. I don’t think anyone thought he had turned the die in a 1/2 turn.

Too much headspace would mean he had the die screwed in too far, so it'd be bumping shoulders too much and causing too much headspace. You don't get that from having the die backed out too much. Too much headspace doesn't cause stuck cases when OP tries to chamber them.

 

[lash]

Too much headspace would mean he had the die screwed in too far, so it'd be bumping shoulders too much and causing too much headspace. You don't get that from having the die backed out too much. Too much headspace doesn't cause stuck cases when OP tries to chamber them.

Lol, very true. Wrong terminology on my part. ‍

I hadn’t had my coffee yet. You are correct.

 

[Yondering]

Lol, very true. Wrong terminology on my part. ‍

I hadn’t had my coffee yet. You are correct.

Given the early morning post, I figured it was a coffee thing!

Your suggestion to use a piece of brass is a good one too, although for a 308 or 6.5 Creed a 357/9mm or 40 cal case is a more appropriate size. Make sure that piece of pistol brass has been sized of course; any dent or out-of-roundness in the case mouth will make the measurement a lot harder.

OP, like this; here's a .357 Mag brass used as the headspace comparator, although a shorter 9mm case is more stable and easier to use.
The point of this, or a store bought comparator, or a shop-made tool like my pics above, is to use a round hole to contact somewhere in the middle of the shoulder; measuring from that "shoulder datum" to the base of the case lets you compare shoulder bump between fired and sized conditions. It's pretty simple and will improve your case sizing technique for any bottleneck cases.

 

[Raivkka]

Given the early morning post, I figured it was a coffee thing!

Your suggestion to use a piece of brass is a good one too, although for a 308 or 6.5 Creed a 357/9mm or 40 cal case is a more appropriate size. Make sure that piece of pistol brass has been sized of course; any dent or out-of-roundness in the case mouth will make the measurement a lot harder.

OP, like this; here's a .357 Mag brass used as the headspace comparator, although a shorter 9mm case is more stable and easier to use.
The point of this, or a store bought comparator, or a shop-made tool like my pics above, is to use a round hole to contact somewhere in the middle of the shoulder; measuring from that "shoulder datum" to the base of the case lets you compare shoulder bump between fired and sized conditions. It's pretty simple and will improve your case sizing technique for any bottleneck cases.

I'll shoot some factory ammo this weekend and take some measurements. I've got a 38 case that looks like it'll work.
And, got some additional tools on order at Midway to get the job done correctly. I guess just in time to prep 500 pieces of Lake City brass as well. Guess I know what i'm doing next week...

 

[Yondering]

I'll shoot some factory ammo this weekend and take some measurements. I've got a 38 case that looks like it'll work.
And, got some additional tools on order at Midway to get the job done correctly. I guess just in time to prep 500 pieces of Lake City brass as well. Guess I know what i'm doing next week...

Ha, yep!
I think once you try this method and understand it, you'll wonder why you ever did it any other way.

Just remember to deprime that brass first, without sizing it (use a universal decapping tool). Even a tiny and normally unnoticeable ridge around the firing pin indent in the primer can throw the measurement off by a thou or two. And for reference, a sheet of notebook paper is roughly .004" thick, so that's about how much you'll want to bump the shoulders back in your AR. More than that starts working brass too much above the case web, and can eventually lead to case head separations.

A side note, sort of a tangent but it's relevant and wasn't mentioned here yet - different levels of brass work hardening (from the number of firings since annealing, amount of shoulder movement, load pressure, etc) will change how much the die bumps the case shoulder for a given die setting. That's not intended to make it sound complicated, but understand that if you're using brass of mixed pedigree, the shoulder bump numbers you measure will vary a lot more than if you've just annealed that batch of brass, for example.

Another example - early in my 6.5 Creedmoor shooting, I had my size die set to bump shoulders .002" (bolt action rifle) for the brass I was using, but then got an annealing machine and ran that brass through it before the next sizing; the same die setting was bumping shoulders back .008". It was also more consistent though; instead of a spread of +/-.001" (meaning bump could be .001" to .003") the variation was lower than my Mitutoyo calipers could measure, giving me .002" every time after adjusting. That seems to have resulted in more consistent accuracy over the long term as well.

YMMV but hope that helps explain some of the things you'll be seeing!

 

[lash]

Ha, yep!
I think once you try this method and understand it, you'll wonder why you ever did it any other way.

Just remember to deprime that brass first, without sizing it (use a universal decapping tool). Even a tiny and normally unnoticeable ridge around the firing pin indent in the primer can throw the measurement off by a thou or two. And for reference, a sheet of notebook paper is roughly .004" thick, so that's about how much you'll want to bump the shoulders back in your AR. More than that starts working brass too much above the case web, and can eventually lead to case head separations.

A side note, sort of a tangent but it's relevant and wasn't mentioned here yet - different levels of brass work hardening (from the number of firings since annealing, amount of shoulder movement, load pressure, etc) will change how much the die bumps the case shoulder for a given die setting. That's not intended to make it sound complicated, but understand that if you're using brass of mixed pedigree, the shoulder bump numbers you measure will vary a lot more than if you've just annealed that batch of brass, for example.

Another example - early in my 6.5 Creedmoor shooting, I had my size die set to bump shoulders .002" (bolt action rifle) for the brass I was using, but then got an annealing machine and ran that brass through it before the next sizing; the same die setting was bumping shoulders back .008". It was also more consistent though; instead of a spread of +/-.001" (meaning bump could be .001" to .003") the variation was lower than my Mitutoyo calipers could measure, giving me .002" every time after adjusting. That seems to have resulted in more consistent accuracy over the long term as well.

YMMV but hope that helps explain some of the things you'll be seeing!

Good post.

 

[FLIGHT762]

Another example - early in my 6.5 Creedmoor shooting, I had my size die set to bump shoulders .002" (bolt action rifle) for the brass I was using, but then got an annealing machine and ran that brass through it before the next sizing; the same die setting was bumping shoulders back .008". It was also more consistent though; instead of a spread of +/-.001" (meaning bump could be .001" to .003") the variation was lower than my Mitutoyo calipers could measure, giving me .002" every time after adjusting. That seems to have resulted in more consistent accuracy over the long term as well.

I found this out too some time ago about freshly annealed brass. To help this out without having to re-adjust my F/L die, I bought a set of Redding Competition Shell Holders. I can now adjust the bump without moving the die.