Dies and equipment 6bra vs 6 Dasher

[fvalmostthere]

Closing in on the end of my barrel life for my savage 6.5 creed, planning on re barreling in either 6bra or 6dasher with a prefit.

What kind of dies are available for these 2 calibers?
Seems like for 6 dasher redding and forster make dies which is what I use for my 6.5 creed
Whereas whidden makes 6bra sizers and people just use forster 6dasher seater from what I have read?

I know I will have to fireform 6bra which isn't a problem and i don't know much about it but dasher brass needs to be hydroformed? can you buy it all ready to go or is this another step? what is the price difference?

Also not opposed to looking at the 6GT but not sure if anyone does a prefit for them just yet.

Any info would be greatly appreciated!

 

[Uspsa2011]

Die selection is certainly better for dasher. All major players have them readily available. Bra is not as available but certainly not hard to procure. Whidden has them as well as harrels. Otm tactical actually stocks the harrels bra sizing die which i think is very forward thinking of them.

Both dasher and bra require forming, though the fireforming for the bra is less involved. With the bra youre essentially just changing the shoulder angle from 30 degrees to 40 when you touch off the round. With the dasher youre changing the shoulder angle as well as blowing it forward. If youve got the time and patience hydroforming the dasher is an option but i think most people find it to be a pain in the ass. If youve got the funds you can pay the people with the patience to hydroform for you. Theres a few good services for that service mentioned on this forum.

As far as steps involved for fireforming dasher.
-porno style. Just load the projectile long, jam it into the lands and shoot.
-false shoulder which involves necking up and then necking down a portion of the neck to crush fit into your chamber.

For forming bra. Just load and shoot. Certainly more user friendly.

 

[Dthomas3523]

Just made this choice. I went dasher. Hydroformed brass is about $50 more per 100 than buying virgin 6br brass. And it’s pretty much load and shoot as the only bit of fireforming left to be done is squaring the shoulder out.

 

[DDoug]

Where is the best place to source the hydroformed dasher brass?

 

[Dthomas3523]

Where is the best place to source the hydroformed dasher brass?

@Rimfiremike is where I just got 300pcs from.

Got it today and it looks great.

 

[codym]

I went through all this and decided just to go with a straight 6BR. After all the hassle the dasher and ackley wouldn’t get me much over the straight BR with a 27 inch barrel

 

[NW Valkyrie]

I've been considering BRA vs Dasher as well and it sure seems like the BRA has a lot going for it.

Both have a proven track record in setting benchrest records so I think most will agree they are plenty accurate enough for PRS-style shooting. Both sling 105-115gr match bullets with crazy low SD and the BR community has done all the hard work of figuring out load data for us!

Dasher Advantages:

• Die availability
• Reamer availability

Since Dasher is more established, it's a lot easier finding prefit barrels and dies. I suspect this will change as the BRA gains traction, but for now dasher is more mainstream.

BRA Advantages:

• Some in the BR community feel the BRA is more consistent. There is a non trivial amount of long time Dasher users who have moved over. Now maybe it's just a new-kid-on-the-block thing, but if you follow what the BR boys are doing and some of the recent world records, it's clear the BRA is trending
• Long neck- many feel the accuracy of the original BR is in part due to the long neck. If you are in this camp, you get to keep it (might be part of the consistency thing)
• Fireforming- this is the big one. You don't need to pay someone to hydro your brass, you don't need bullets in the lands or false shoulders. You don't need to play around with COW loads or scramble to find cheap bullets just to sling down range. Just load and shoot. Many, many BRA users will tell you their initial loads to blow the shoulder to 40 degrees are match accurate. Like in the .2's with SD under 5 accurate. These first loads are a little slower, but perfect for training and club matches. Basically you get a 6mm BR on the first load and a Dasher on the rest.

What am I missing here? What else does the Dasher have? If I try to add 30 -50 fps case potential to the Dasher, then do I have to add longer barrel life and cheaper powder charges to the BRA? I consider the size to be a wash, your barrel will determine the node.

BRA with Forster honed sizer for my next BR-based barrel.

 

[Dthomas3523]

I went through all this and decided just to go with a straight 6BR. After all the hassle the dasher and ackley wouldn’t get me much over the straight BR with a 27 inch barrel

Also a good choice. Most matches are won <600yds and not the long range stages. So the extra 100fps for dasher isn’t that big a deal.

 

[shoot4fun]

For 6BRA Harrell's can make you a FL bushing die for (IIRC) $70 and it will be best fit for your particular chamber. You have to send them three fired cases which is not an issue since you can just fire form them in your BRA barrel.
For 6 Dasher I would recommend Whidden. I would also recommend paying the extra $$ for the Whidden click-adjustable FL sizing die. You'll want a .267 bushing for sure and maybe a .266 just to play with neck tension.
IMHO, the Dasher is much easier to tune and way less fussy about the powders it likes. Varget seems to be king but it also does well with H4895 and RL15. Dasher brass also provides more useable life than BRA. I use no one but DJ's Brass Service to provide my hydro-formed 6 Dasher brass now. I did try another provider but was seriously disappointed. DJ's brass is load and shoot, fully formed and ready to go when it comes to your mailbox. You do have to send him your brass as he doesn't keep any in stock.
The 6BRA seems to much prefer H4895 and the best accuracy node seems to be up in the top of the pressure limits for best brass life.

 

[codym]

Exactly, I’m running a straight 243 with 110 gn smks at 3080, the difference between that and a 6BR with a 105 Berger at 2850 isn’t enough for me to take advantage of. I will be getting quite a bit less recoil and way better barrel life.

 

[Hoyt7mm]

I toyed with this recently and went Dasher as well. Mostly because my buddy has the reamer. I used the false shoulder + jam method. Honestly, it wasn't that much more work, plus I used it as time to practice and break in the barrels. That said, the fire forming loads are more than accurate enough to shoot a match with (10 shot groups, sub 1/2"). I'm using the Redding FL sizer (non-bushing) and Forster micro seater, since those were available. Couldn't be happier with my decision so far

 

[kthomas]

Also a good choice. Most matches are won <600yds and not the long range stages. So the extra 100fps for dasher isn’t that big a deal.

Not to mention Jake Vibbert is running a 6BRX at really slow velocities, around ~2700 fps if I remember correctly, and he does very well with it.

Speed isn't everything, and it's advantages are often overstated.

 

[Sheldon N]

I have and shoot both Dasher and 6BRA, both are excellent. I'd be hard pressed if you made me pick one that I had to shoot permanently. I think maybe 6BRA.

6BRA dies, Harrels, Whidden or any Dasher die that you want to cut 85-90 thou off of. I use a modified Forster Dasher die with a honed neck.

Fire forming with either is not hard. IMO the 6BRA gets the advantage because it is easier to make quality brass. It's naturally headspaced on the shoulder. I found formed case lengths were more consistent with 6BRA, and I think it shot a little better with fire forming loads.

I like the long neck, no concerns with donuts or keeping bullets out of the neck/shoulder junction.

Don't run it hot, 2875 to 2920 is a good window. For me Dasher is 2930-2950.

Straight 6BR is a nice simple option too.

 

[Sheldon N]

Not to mention Jake Vibbert is running a 6BRX at really slow velocities, around ~2700 fps if I remember correctly

I think he's got the 110 ATips up closer to 2800 last I heard but yes, slow and steady is the way to go. 2700's with a 105 would be leaving a lot on the table.

 

[Timo Turl]

I think he's got the 110 ATips up closer to 2800 last I heard but yes, slow and steady is the way to go. 2700's with a 105 would be leaving a lot on the table.

If 2800 FPS slow and steady is the way to go what does the 6BRX offer over the straight 6BR ? Got a lot to learn. Thanks

 

[Sheldon N]

If 2800 FPS slow and steady is the way to go what does the 6BRX offer over the straight 6BR ? Got a lot to learn. Thanks

I think slow/steady is an overarching philosophy you could apply to any cartridge anywhere. Staying off the limits of pressure (think purely PSI, like sub 60k) is going to make bolt lift and extraction easier, be more forgiving in dusty conditions or in rain, is going to be less hard on the barrel and less likely to erode the throat as fast, less likely for the load to change on you. It's basically choosing reliable function over speed and theoretical ballistic advantage.

Between 6BR/BRA/BRX/Dasher you can just look at case capacity as a rough guide for how fast you should expect them to shoot, all else being equal. Roughly speaking it works out about like this at 60kPSI with a 105gr bullet, 26" barrel ...

6BR (case capacity 37.8gr H20) = 2850fps
6BRA (39.1 H20) = 2900fps
6 Dasher/6BRX (41gr H2O, maybe a bit more for BRX) = 2950fps

Now why Vibbert chose low 2800's I'm not totally sure. Obviously the 110 is going to shoot slower than the 105 numbers above. Maybe that's just what ran good in his gun, or he likes to err even more on the side of a conservative rain-safe load. Either way, the above principles are the same.

 

[Dthomas3523]

I think slow/steady is an overarching philosophy you could apply to any cartridge anywhere. Staying off the limits of pressure (think purely PSI, like sub 60k) is going to make bolt lift and extraction easier, be more forgiving in dusty conditions or in rain, is going to be less hard on the barrel and less likely to erode the throat as fast, less likely for the load to change on you. It's basically choosing reliable function over speed and theoretical ballistic advantage.

Between 6BR/BRA/BRX/Dasher you can just look at case capacity as a rough guide for how fast you should expect them to shoot, all else being equal. Roughly speaking it works out about like this at 60kPSI with a 105gr bullet, 26" barrel ...

6BR (case capacity 37.8gr H20) = 2850fps
6BRA (39.1 H20) = 2900fps
6 Dasher/6BRX (41gr H2O, maybe a bit more for BRX) = 2950fps

Now why Vibbert chose low 2800's I'm not totally sure. Obviously the 110 is going to shoot slower than the 105 numbers above. Maybe that's just what ran good in his gun, or he likes to err even more on the side of a conservative rain-safe load. Either way, the above principles are the same.

He claims he chose 2700’s a couple months ago in his podcast, because he feels like it was more consistent and can see trace better at slower speeds.

‘‘Twas before running a-tips. Not sure what he’s running now.

@JC Steel

 

[Timo Turl]

I think slow/steady is an overarching philosophy you could apply to any cartridge anywhere. Staying off the limits of pressure (think purely PSI, like sub 60k) is going to make bolt lift and extraction easier, be more forgiving in dusty conditions or in rain, is going to be less hard on the barrel and less likely to erode the throat as fast, less likely for the load to change on you. It's basically choosing reliable function over speed and theoretical ballistic advantage.

Between 6BR/BRA/BRX/Dasher you can just look at case capacity as a rough guide for how fast you should expect them to shoot, all else being equal. Roughly speaking it works out about like this at 60kPSI with a 105gr bullet, 26" barrel ...

6BR (case capacity 37.8gr H20) = 2850fps
6BRA (39.1 H20) = 2900fps
6 Dasher/6BRX (41gr H2O, maybe a bit more for BRX) = 2950fps

Now why Vibbert chose low 2800's I'm not totally sure. Obviously the 110 is going to shoot slower than the 105 numbers above. Maybe that's just what ran good in his gun, or he likes to err even more on the side of a conservative rain-safe load. Either way, the above principles are the same.

Thanks. That all makes sense and I understand l from the VP podcast that he chose a slower velocity to make it easier to see his trace. What I don’t get is why not run a straight BR...why go BRX if you aren’t going to push them so hard ? I guess he’s not typical of most shooters and many opt for the extra velocity you highlight.

 

[kthomas]

Thanks. That all makes sense and I understand l from the VP podcast that he chose a slower velocity to make it easier to see his trace. What I don’t get is why not run a straight BR...why go BRX if you aren’t going to push them so hard ? I guess he’s not typical of most shooters and many opt for the extra velocity you highlight.

My guess is that he's already tooled up to shoot BRX, has been shooting it for a while and has all the equipment and fire formed brass. He's familiar with it, and the velocities he is currently using is just an evolution of his tactics.

No reason why you couldn't do what he is doing with just a straight 6BR.

 

[Sheldon N]

What I don’t get is why not run a straight BR...why go BRX if you aren’t going to push them so hard ? I guess he’s not typical of most shooters and many opt for the extra velocity you highlight.

Not speaking for Jake, but to me if your going to run a certain velocity it makes sense to do it with a large enough case that can stay well within reasonable pressure levels.

Real world example... my first 6BRA barrel I was all gung-ho to run it at Dasher speeds because everyone said it could. I was at 2950 with a 105 Hybrid. Shoot a match in the rain (actually one of Jake's matches) and fought super-heavy bolt lift all day. That brass is now semi-trashed with loose pockets. This latest barrel is 2920 fps and 1 1/2" longer, and I'm still not sure I'd call it rain safe.

 

[codym]

This thread just re-affirms why I went straight BR. At this point in time I am just not a good enough shooter to take advantage of the 100 or so FPS the dasher gets you. Plus I really like buying lapua brass, load and shoot.

 

[fvalmostthere]

Wow, thanks everyone for all the info. I will probably end up going 6bra if i can get a prefit for it, but a lot of good points made. The extra inch of barrel on a straight br makes a lot of sense but whats the difference between making once fired brass and fireforming. My 6.5 loads are about 20fps different between new brass and once fired so i shoot all my new brass before considering taking it to a match. Maybe that's just me.

My hope is to buy 2-300 peices of brass and fireform it all and then do load development. My creedmoor had a pretty big velocity spike after about 250 rounds, so fireforming first would just get me to my load development on time so to speak.

 

[bschneiderheinze]

6brx = 6 Creedmoor speed 6br barrel life

 

[Skunkworx]

If you run the norma

6brx = 6 Creedmoor speed 6br barrel life

Say what?

 

[bschneiderheinze]

I ran 6 Creedmoor at around 3050 I know they’ll go faster. The accuracy nodes for 6brx are around 3025-50 and 3100 if you want to to push your brass. I run a 28”’barrel for PRS and figure I can get 3050 easy. I’m gettin 2900 out of a straight BR with 15 reloadings on the brass. The barrel life might be slightly less than a 6br but my first Creedmoor barrel crapped out at 1300. I’ll get more than twice that with the same velocity, bc, and better accuracy.

 

[ZY100]

Wow, thanks everyone for all the info. I will probably end up going 6bra if i can get a prefit for it, but a lot of good points made. The extra inch of barrel on a straight br makes a lot of sense but whats the difference between making once fired brass and fireforming. My 6.5 loads are about 20fps different between new brass and once fired so i shoot all my new brass before considering taking it to a match. Maybe that's just me.

My hope is to buy 2-300 peices of brass and fireform it all and then do load development. My creedmoor had a pretty big velocity spike after about 250 rounds, so fireforming first would just get me to my load development on time so to speak.

Shameless plug, but my PVA 6 BRA barrel nut pre-fit on my Nucleus shoots like a CHAMP.

ZY