Range Report Difference between these 2 Hornady bullets

[jLorenzo]

So these are the 2nd rounds Ivery found for good prices that my gun shoots well. Both supposed to be 75gr Hornady BTHP but they look different to me. The Black bullet looks like it would have a higher BC than the other. Anybody know what their using in this Frontier ammo?

Supposed to be Lake City production with Hornady bullets. The open tips on the Frontier bullets are a lot less even that the Hornady Black. The Frontier definitely has more MV because it's 5.56, about a Mil higher at 100y.

 

[TonyTheTiger]

The Frontier definitely has more MV because it's 5.56, about a Mil higher at 100y.

Thats not necessarily velocity related.

 

[jLorenzo]

Your right. haven't tested to see if the Frontier once zeroed requires less dope like 500 and in. No chrono for me yet.
But isn't 5.56 usually hotter as a rule of thumb? Gun has an 18" barrel, truing my Hornady Black dope with Shooter, from 400-800 gives me about 2550 corrected. Haven't shot the Frontier out to distance enough to gather dope.
Just trying to figure out what the difference is between those bullets. The Frontier shoots well enough it's going to be my plinking ammo. Black shoots better.

 

[TonyTheTiger]

The first rule of thumb regarding factory ammo velocities is to ignore all rules about thumbs. Typically real 5.56 Nato is hotter but there seems to be a lot of 223 ammo with 5.56 stamped on the box. A chrono really is the only answer.
You're right though, those bullets look different but I'm only aware of two different Hornady 75 BTHP Sku numbers, and its just the same bullet with and without a cannelure. Weird...

 

[jLorenzo]

The frontier does have the cannelure but they still look to have different ogive profiles. Guess I'll just shoot the frontier to gather dope, true muzzle velocity and call it good. Not like Ill be shooting much past 800 with these rounds anyway. The black did well last range trip from 435-825.
Last target at 998 no joy, a few splashes spotted but mirage was heavy and I'm not sure how that bullet handles going trans.

 

[Night Assassin]

Next time we get together remind me to bring the Labradar.

 

[Rob01]

Here is a pic of my 75 BTHP Steel Match ammo. Looks more like the Black profile. There is definitely a different bullet in the Frontier line as even the BC is different and listed at .355 vs the 75 BTHP .395 BC.

 

[CRT2]

Frontier has the T2 bullet with a BC 0f .355.

 

[Rob01]

Frontier has the T2 bullet with a BC 0f .355.

What is the T2 bullet? Hornady only lists one 75 BTHP in their bullets. The Frontier is a different bullet as I also listed the .355 BC above but it's not listed anywhere.

 

[bunsen27]

What is the T2 bullet? Hornady only lists one 75 BTHP in their bullets. The Frontier is a different bullet as I also listed the .355 BC above but it's not listed anywhere.

I think he was referring to the T2 TAP bullet:

http://www.hornadyle.com/products/rifle-ammunition/556-nato/75-gr-bthp-t2-tap

The profile looks very similar to the Frontier offering:

 

[Rob01]

Ah ok that must be them. They must make them for the ammo and not sell them in the actual bullet line.

 

[jLorenzo]

Next time we get together remind me to bring the Labradar.

Wow no Idea you had one of those. That's awesome.

 

[jLorenzo]

I think he was referring to the T2 TAP bullet:

http://www.hornadyle.com/products/rifle-ammunition/556-nato/75-gr-bthp-t2-tap

The profile looks very similar to the Frontier offering:

So these would have some decent terminal ballistics being used in the TAP line?

 

[bunsen27]

So these would have some decent terminal ballistics being used in the TAP line?

One would assume so. I've never used TAP for target or hunting purposes. If you follow the link and open the tab labeled: "Gelatins". You will see the FBI ballistics test data. It looks good to me.

Now 0.224" 73gr ELD-M's on groundhogs I do have some experience with.

 

[CRT2]

TAP T2 75 gr (Red Box) MV of 2723, STDEV 13.1. Max 2732 and Min 2700. DD M4 V5 16", 1/7 twist.

 

[jLorenzo]

One would assume so. I've never used TAP for target or hunting purposes. If you follow the link and open the tab labeled: "Gelatins". You will see the FBI ballistics test data. It looks good to me.

Now 0.224" 73gr ELD-M's on groundhogs I do have some experience with.

I was also shooting some 73gr elds. Definitely showed promise but they only have like a .003 higher BC than the BTHPs I've been shooting. I'll experiment more with them though, especially once I start reloading.

 

[jLorenzo]

I've read that the 75gr bthps with cannelure tend to break apart at the cannelure causing excellent damage on tissue.

 

[TonyTheTiger]

I was also shooting some 73gr elds. Definitely showed promise but they only have like a .003 higher BC than the BTHPs I've been shooting. I'll experiment more with them though, especially once I start reloading.

FWIW my trued BC with the 75 BTHP was always somewhere around .36 G1, the 73 ELD was close to advertised BC.

 

[jLorenzo]

Here's some extremely detailed info. Very good stuff

https://www.ar15.com/forums/ar-15/Hornady_75_gr__HP_Match_vs__75_gr__TAP/16-387471/

 

[jLorenzo]

FWIW my trued BC with the 75 BTHP was always somewhere around .36 G1, the 73 ELD was close to advertised BC.

What barrel length and twist was the gun that got you that BC?

 

[TonyTheTiger]

What barrel length and twist was the gun that got you that BC?

Three 8" twist, 2-16" and a 22" barrel and one 7" twist 14.5" barrel.

 

[jLorenzo]

Three 8" twist, 2-16" and a 22" barrel and one 7" twist 14.5" barrel.

So with me having AN 18" 1:7 223 Wylde do you think I should plug in .360 for the Hornady black 75 bthp T1? I've only true my MV through Shooter getting about 2580ish.

 

[TonyTheTiger]

So with me having AN 18" 1:7 223 Wylde do you think I should plug in .360 for the Hornady black 75 bthp T1? I've only true my MV through Shooter getting about 2580ish.

Can't really say, you'll just have to shoot at distance to confirm. FWIW the Litz BC on these bullets is somewhere in the .35 range. I don't take the Litz numbers as gospel but its something worth looking at when trying to true up your data.

 

[jLorenzo]

Can't really say, you'll just have to shoot at distance to confirm. FWIW the Litz BC on these bullets is somewhere in the .35 range. I don't take the Litz numbers as gospel but its something worth looking at when trying to true up your data.

I'm going out tomorrow, max range 700y. at some point I'll have acess to my friends spot which is more than enough at around 1500. I am zeroed for the Hornady black, have 120 rounds of it, so gonna gather some more dope (2nd time out with the gun past 100y). Also have 160 of the frontier, then 200 of the remanufactured Black Hills 77s and 100 of Federal's MK262 copy on the way. Have yet to shoot anything 77gr out of this gun. The Hornady black shoots 1-1.25

moa average with a couple sub moa groups, throwing the same few patterns. The frontier opens up to about 1.5-2 moa.

 

[jLorenzo]

Also have some Hornady Match 75s, 68s and 73 elds but only a couple boxes. Saving for later.

 

[ddavis]

2860 seems absurd out of an AR. Wonder how they justified putting that on the box? I used to get that velocity (2860) with mid-upper handloads with the 75 BTHP but I was shooting them out of a 27" bolt action. Interesting how different those bullets are.

 

[jLorenzo]

2860 seems absurd out of an AR. Wonder how they justified putting that on the box? I used to get that velocity (2860) with mid-upper handloads with the 75 BTHP but I was shooting them out of a 27" bolt action. Interesting how different those bullets are.

Which box? Was out to 700 today, definitely getting 2480 maybe a little more based on dope and truing through shooter. Out of my 18" .223 wylde 1:7 with the Hornady Black .223

 

[jLorenzo]

Also I ran .360 as BC

 

[jLorenzo]

When I true my dope in the shooting app using the velocity calibration I've been using a G1 of .36 instead of Hornady's .395.
Getting a calibrated velocity of about 2450. Is this right? I've confirmed the dope some at 700 and in and it seems to be good.
Again 18" .223 Wylde 1:7.
Am I worrying over nothing about the B.C being correct?

 

[TonyTheTiger]

I've heard of people getting velocities that low with factory ammo, but at the risk of sounding like a broken record, buy or borrow a chrono. Without it you could be chasing your tail forever.
I've seen people go through the BC/velocity truing ritual before and about the time it lines up at distance its off up close or vice versa. Then they finally get a chrono only to find they were off on both numbers. This is only after they've spent enough on ammo to buy several chronos though.

 

[jLorenzo]

Got some other stuff to try out today. Your right I'll be getting a magneto speed soon.

 

[jLorenzo]

Have had some more range time with the 5.56 Frontier 75gr with the T2 bullet. It is hot, also heard the same from another shooter. The Black is slow but so far shows the best consistency and accuracy. I guess Frank is right about gas guns liking slower loadings. Have a match on Thursday, will be shooting Black Hills reman. 77gr .223 cause that's what I have, am zeroed for and have dope for. After that I think I'll be sticking with both the Black and Frontier loadings along with the 73gr eld for some things.

 

[TKCattle]

I have heard that the brass in Frontier is Lake City and not Hornady brass.

 

[jLorenzo]

Wouldn't be surprised, just says Frontier 5.56.
Side note, when I clear an unfired Frontier 75, I see slight rifling marks. So must be a bit jammed in my Wylde chamber.

 

[Ledzep]

Most has been covered, but T2 (with cannelure) vs. non-cannelure 75 hpbt profile, different ogive radius. The T2 (with cannelure version) has the same or very similar nose geometry to the lighter weight .224's (50-55 vmax, etc.). Can be a little easier to get to shoot because more bearing surface is in the throat. Case head to ogive numbers will be longer on the T2. Frontier is Hornady bullets loaded @ lake city.

eta: 2860fps is likely from a 24" accuracy test barrel.

 

[jLorenzo]

I've noticed the T2 seems to be used in most of Hornadys stuff I've only found the T1 in the Black series and the regular match. Have some Superformance match I'm gonna give a try, hopefully my gas gun will like it even though it's super hot, they're claiming something like 2900+ with the 75gr T2. I'm sure that's a 24" barrel though.

 

[Yondering]

2860 seems absurd out of an AR. Wonder how they justified putting that on the box? I used to get that velocity (2860) with mid-upper handloads with the 75 BTHP but I was shooting them out of a 27" bolt action. Interesting how different those bullets are.

I know this is about a month late, but that velocity is within reason for modern ball powders like TAC and CFE223 in 5.56 loads; I'm sure that's what Frontier is doing but with a custom blended ball powder. IME accuracy was never as good at those speeds though. The guys loading with Varget give up 250-300 fps from that speed, but 8208 and Benchmark will meet about halfway between with great accuracy and stability.

 

[CRT2]

I've noticed the T2 seems to be used in most of Hornadys stuff I've only found the T1 in the Black series and the regular match. Have some Superformance match I'm gonna give a try, hopefully my gas gun will like it even though it's super hot, they're claiming something like 2900+ with the 75gr T2. I'm sure that's a 24" barrel though.

2760 with Superformance 75 gr from a DD M4 with 16" barrel and mid-length gas tube. Temperature 50 degrees. Caution - Hornady site had a warning posted about shooting Superformance in carbine length gas tube rifles.

 

[jLorenzo]

Mine is rifle, but yeah it seems like it's gotta be super hot round.