Disappointing lot of Midas plus

[Masojoh]

I bought 6 bricks of Midas Plus from a forum member earlier this year. My hopes were that my vudoo, which arrived last month, would like it. Long story short - at 50 yards, it is incredible. But at 100, it completely falls apart. I’ve tried it in my B14R and 457 with the same results. Across the chronograph, the variation shot to shot is much worse than Center X, Rifle Match, and Long Range Match.

Has anyone ever had contact with Lapua about a substandard lot? I’d be more than happy to record a video of me shooting a box across the chrono to show just how bad it is. I’ve got 5-1/2 bricks of it left, and would feel terrible about selling this ammo to anyone knowing how it shoots for me.

 

[Trigger Monkey]

I’d start with contacting Lapua and see what they say. That being said, in my experience .22 match ammo can be a bit of a crap shoot, regardless of price and it can vary by lot # too. SK Biathlon is one that comes to mind that gave me issues like yours, it shot bug holes at 50 yards in two of my rifles but beyond that it was just too inconsistent and that extended to SK Rifle Match, Center X, some Eley stuff as well.

 

[JimTN]

Sell it to a RFBR guy, 50 yds is what they shoot. Be upfront about it if you wish, but in all probability, they will only care about the 50yd performance. JMO.

 

[grauhanen]

I bought 6 bricks of Midas Plus . My hopes were that my vudoo, which arrived last month, would like it. Long story short - at 50 yards, it is incredible. But at 100, it completely falls apart. I’ve tried it in my B14R and 457 with the same results. Across the chronograph, the variation shot to shot is much worse than Center X, Rifle Match, and Long Range Match.

Has anyone ever had contact with Lapua about a substandard lot? I’d be more than happy to record a video of me shooting a box across the chrono to show just how bad it is. I’ve got 5-1/2 bricks of it left,

A target would show how it shoots much better than a video of chrony results.

Six bricks were bought and five-and-a-half are left. This indicates a total of five boxes of fifty were tested in total across three rifles, a Vudoo, a Bergara, and a CZ. As an observation, that's not a lot of testing in any one rifle. When shooting outdoors at 100 yards it's not always possible to account for what can be relatively minor movements of air between the shooter and target. A barely noticeable 1 mph crosswind that occurs between shots can move a .22LR match bullet by as much as .4" at 100 yards.

It's possible that an ammo that is "incredible" at 50 yards may be less than incredible at 100 yards. After all, on average group sizes increase from 50 to 100 by a factor of about 2.8 -- with some lots/rifles being better, some worse.

Are there targets produced by the Vudoo with better ammo than the M+ to show the results that are expected?

This can be relevant because the name on the box is never a guarantee of performance. Many lots of upper tier ammo can produce good results with some of the ammo in a box, but the same box can have what may appear to be fliers. It doesn't mean, however, that the lot is "defective". It's simply one of many that's not lights out.

An example or two can help illustrate what's not all that unusual in terms of results with ammo that comes with a not inconsiderable price tag.

Below is a target with ten-shot groups shot at 100 yards yesterday with a lot of Lapua CX. This lot shoots some very good five-shot groups at 50 but not all are very good. At 100 it's easy to see the results that are spoiled by what some would refer to as fliers. The top right group is not unusual with this ammo. More frustrating are the two bottom groups. In those 17 rounds in all went nicely, seemingly spoiled by three shots that didn't go where the others went. But those three are characteristics of a lot that isn't especially consistent.



It doesn't necessarily matter whether it's CX or M+. This is not uncommon. Below are two more examples of ammo performance that's not atypical. They were produced yesterday. The target on the left is the same lot of CX as was used on the target above. On the right is the results of a lot of M+ that has rounds in every box that are less consistent than the others and makes for disappointing results.

Finding really good ammo that is consistent is not easy. No rifle, regardless of make, can outshoot the ammo it's given.

 

[Masojoh]

Fair points, for sure. Thanks for taking the time to offer your thoughts.

If my memory serves me correctly, I shot 3 boxes out of the Vudoo immediately after shooting a couple of boxes of center X. I unfortunately did not save the target with the Midas Plus, but the center X showed really good results. I was watching the velocities on the Midas plus swing upwards of 70fps shot to shot, while the Center X was 10-15.

For reference, the top 3 groups on this target was my Vudoo. 100 yards using Center X. The Midas plus groups were easily twice the size of the worst CX group.

Left to right wind at about 10 o’clock, 5mph. The bottom was my B14. It was clean when I started, and I jumped to 100 after confirming my 50 yard zero - hence why the groups tightened up a lot. I did dial for the wind on the B14. Both guns have Athlon Cronus scopes.

I chose to only run one box through my other two rifles, only looking at the last 3-4 5 round groups. I’ll run the CZ with it on Friday and see if it improves.

Thanks again for the input.

 

[1813Benny]

What are your expectations for accuracy and at what range(s)? How are you testing at 100 yards (rest type, etc.)? Are you using wind flags, etc. to assist in reading the wind. What is the magnification on your scope?

From the information posted, you bought the ammo (all one lot number) from a 3rd party w/o any testing. It shoots great at 50 yards, not so well at 100 yards with similar results with multiple rifles, but you are calling it a "substandard lot".....uh, ok.

Buying smallbore (.22 rimfire) ammo blind without testing is always a gamble, but having an expectation for great accuracy at both 50 and 100 yards (or further) w/o said testing is not realistic for performance or consistency.

 

[snipes81]

It's a bit late in the game for this, but how come you didn't send / take your Vudoo off to Lapua for lot testing and purchase directly through them? If you are already buying 3000 rounds, it's not that big of a step to go 5000. If you are in the US, perhaps reach out to their US distributor as well (capstone performance group).

 

[Defender32]

Threaded barrel? if so add ATS Tuner and tune the lot in and use it. Tune for the next lot when you buy it. It will or should take 50-100 rounds to tune it and fine tune it at 100. Just because its Lapua does not mean it's going to shoot the best.

I am currently shooting a lot of SK Rifle Match in my tuned RimX that my Vudoo would not shoot at all is was 3/4"-1" at 50 and well above 2"at 100. Tuned on the X and is a bug hole at 50 and just about 3/4" at 100 and just under 3" @ 305 for a 5 shot group

.

 

[Masojoh]

The Vudoo is actually at the test center now. I doubt that I will send the others, but may at some point. I was out of the country when I bought this ammo, thinking it was a safe bet. I guess I was wrong.

Solid advice on the tuner - all of my competition 22 rifles have threaded barrels.

Going back to the question asked, which was - has anyone contacted a manufacturer about sub standard ammo? I understand that not all ammo will be as accurate out of every rifle. But the velocity numbers do not lie. This ammo has worse SD and ES compared to any of the other ammo that I have shot. I’m talking CCI SV, SK rifle match, SK pistol match, SK long range match, SK Semi Auto, Lapua Pistol King, Lapua Center X, and Eley Match. It is this variation in velocity that contributes heavily to the vertical dispersion. That’s just physics. Eley Club was the only type that had worse ES than this Midas plus. These were all shot from my Vudoo over the course of 2 different range trips, cleaning the rifle between each session. On the first trip, the Midas plus was shot after I had shot 150 rounds of Center X. And I fired 150 rounds hoping that it was going to tighten up.

 

[Rimfireshooter99]

Masojoh, don't blame the ammo for the poor performance just yet. Use the lot, tune the tuner to shoot the lot, then shoot at 50 yards to see how you do. Also, as a control, shoot any other rifle/ammo combo, at 50 yards on the same day, to compare your group sizes against the Vudoo with the Midas + ammo. Post both target here for some additional comments, if you wish. I have a 2500X rifle, and shoot ARA matches, so you should easily be less than 1/2 inch for a 5 shot group size at 50 yards (assuming a calm wind day or if you're an experienced shooter in wind), if you have the rifle tuner properly.

 

[Rimfireshooter99]

As a follow-up, don't rely on velocity numbers, shoot targets, compare group sizes to determine if you can shoot well, and if the lot is in question. If it is a poor lot, then post it for sale, and someone will buy what you have left....

 

[grauhanen]

Going back to the question asked, which was - has anyone contacted a manufacturer about sub standard ammo? I understand that not all ammo will be as accurate out of every rifle. But the velocity numbers do not lie. This ammo has worse SD and ES compared to any of the other ammo that I have shot. I’m talking CCI SV, SK rifle match, SK pistol match, SK long range match, SK Semi Auto, Lapua Pistol King, Lapua Center X, and Eley Match. It is this variation in velocity that contributes heavily to the vertical dispersion. That’s just physics. Eley Club was the only type that had worse ES than this Midas plus. These were all shot from my Vudoo over the course of 2 different range trips, cleaning the rifle between each session. On the first trip, the Midas plus was shot after I had shot 150 rounds of Center X. And I fired 150 rounds hoping that it was going to tighten up.

I'm not asking you for the answer, but what's the definition of "sub standard ammo"? Lapua -- or any other match ammo maker -- might ask how someone making the charge would explain it. The answer shouldn't be "When I buy expensive ammo like Midas, I expect it to shoot lights out."

If someone said it's ES and SD are worse than other ammo tested, the ammo maker would probably ask for the ES and SD figures obtained. Since ES and SD can vary between different bores, they might ask if the ammo was tested in other rifles and what ES and SD were produced in them. They might also suggest that ES and SD doesn't necessarily predicate how an ammo will perform.

The ammo maker might ask the complainant for examples, such as pictures of targets, of how the ammo performs. And if the performance is irregular compared to other ammos, they might ask for purposes of comparison for examples of how those other ammos performed in your rifle. In other words, they may wish to see how the ammo and rifle shoot.

The ammo maker would probably remind the complainant that quality standards are closely monitored and evaluated during the manufacturing process. They would point out that ammo performance varies by lot and can vary between bores because bores are not all the same. At the same time, the ammo maker might acknowledge that some lots aren't as good as others in every rifle.

Buying ammo that's untested is, as has been pointed out by others above, a gamble. I once bought a case of CX from a dealer. I didn't test it, naively thinking at the time that all CX should be pretty good. It wasn't good at all, but the dealer did not hesitate to exchange it for me. The replacement CX was much better. Perhaps this illustrates a potential advantage of buying from a dealer rather than someone who offers a deal.

There's no performance guarantee that comes with match ammo, regardless of which manufacturer produced it. Perhaps there's a reason why this ammo was available.

 

[justin amateur]

It took me a while to learn that rimfire ammunition is not manufactured in a manner
that guarantees a uniform/identical product cartridge to cartridge. It's a mass produced item,
with variations in components, powder/primer chemistry, due to changing tolerances
in the machinery and the raw material purchased from the suppliers. Even the method used
by the factory batch grading process is no guarantee of quality. It's statistical sampling
from a small portion of the batch, that determines how the product is labeled.
If that small sample tests out as producing tight, predictable trajectories,
that batch gets labeled as best quality and gets sold with that higher price per cartridge.
But if during the run time of that batch, there was a hiccup in the process,
too much or too little powder or primer, crimp location shifted laterally a few thousandths,
bullet seating was off a bit too deep, that batch labeled as high grade really isn't.
It won't be caught until the consumer uses it. Same can happen in reverse.
The sample tested was from the hiccup portion of the run, batch gets labeled as practice ammo,
but as the rest of the batch was actually very good, produces results well above it's price tag.
It's rimfire, welcome to the lottery...ya' pays y'er money, ya' takes y'er chances.

 

[545riflefan]

Wife and I started into rimfire with the intent to shoot at 200 yards to practice more regularly for when we go out with our 6.5cm at longer ranges. Figured it would be a great way to practice more. We tried to work thru diff types of ammo to see what would work best in our guns ( we have 3 Tikka T1x in our family ). We were finding that the time it was taking to work thru the ammo while dealing with weather conditions and time constraints was just not going to work out. We had our 3 Tikkas lot tested at Lapua back to back to back. It was a real eye opener to sit there and watch Luke work thru the lots and see the results. We learned a ton from him that morning about rimfire. ( great guy ). In the end all 3 guns favored diff lots. I didn’t expect to see just how much diff they would be but it was significant. No way we could have worked thru all that and found good lots for each of us. Most likely we would be thinking our guns just couldn’t shoot and given up. My advice would be to just get the guns lot tested. Lapua sells great ammo. It just may not be the best lot for your gun. Won’t know for sure unless it’s lot tested in a controlled environment against many other lots. Btw. The lots we ended up with are all diff velocities. The lot for my rifle shown above showed 11.67mm at 50 ( I can’t remember the 100 right now but it was great). I had another lot show 12ish mm at 50 but opened up terrible at 100. Luke said nope to that lot due to it falling apart so bad at 100. That’s something I didn’t expect to see. I always thought if it performed good at 50 it would perform good at 100 on out.That is not always the case. I did just post a target pic of my Cx lot in the 50 at 200 thread ( great thread with lots of info ) and also my 6x5 results for this year are with the new lot tested ammo. Now I just need to keep working on my form at the gun is set and I’m shooting the best ammo I could get at the time my gun was tested. I’m running out of excuses now when I have a bad day at the range .

 

[justin amateur]

I've deliberately damaged 22lr bullets to find out what effect it has on trajectories.
At short range, 25 yards or less, skill of the shooter has more effect on the results.
At 50 yards, external ballistics has had time to get into the game and cause spread.
Beyond 50 yards, that spread triples in size if you double the distance, more or less.
Any type of asymmetry of the projectile will skew the flight path. The more asymmetric
the worse the spread. What produces 1/2 inch groups at 50 yards is showing 1.5 inches at 100.
Even relatively minor imperfections can cause pitch/yaw or tipping as it exits the barrel.
At 200 yards, only benchrest competition quality cartridges will allow predictable results,
assuming atmospheric conditions cooperate.

 

[Appalachian]

Wife and I started into rimfire with the intent to shoot at 200 yards to practice more regularly for when we go out with our 6.5cm at longer ranges. Figured it would be a great way to practice more. We tried to work thru diff types of ammo to see what would work best in our guns ( we have 3 Tikka T1x in our family ). We were finding that the time it was taking to work thru the ammo while dealing with weather conditions and time constraints was just not going to work out. We had our 3 Tikkas lot tested at Lapua back to back to back. It was a real eye opener to sit there and watch Luke work thru the lots and see the results. We learned a ton from him that morning about rimfire. ( great guy ). In the end all 3 guns favored diff lots. I didn’t expect to see just how much diff they would be but it was significant. No way we could have worked thru all that and found good lots for each of us. Most likely we would be thinking our guns just couldn’t shoot and given up. My advice would be to just get the guns lot tested. Lapua sells great ammo. It just may not be the best lot for your gun. Won’t know for sure unless it’s lot tested in a controlled environment against many other lots. Btw. The lots we ended up with are all diff velocities. The lot for my rifle shown above showed 11.67mm at 50 ( I can’t remember the 100 right now but it was great). I had another lot show 12ish mm at 50 but opened up terrible at 100. Luke said nope to that lot due to it falling apart so bad at 100. That’s something I didn’t expect to see. I always thought if it performed good at 50 it would perform good at 100 on out.That is not always the case. I did just post a target pic of my Cx lot in the 50 at 200 thread ( great thread with lots of info ) and also my 6x5 results for this year are with the new lot tested ammo. Now I just need to keep working on my form at the gun is set and I’m shooting the best ammo I could get at the time my gun was tested. I’m running out of excuses now when I have a bad day at the range .

Was the 11.67mm group a 10 shot or 20 shot group?

 

[545riflefan]

Was the 11.67mm group a 10 shot or 20 shot group?

I’d have to go dig the results out to be sure but I think it was 10 rds. Then this lot was shot again against a few other good looking lots to verify the best for me that day. The second verification group was a little larger. Going from memory until I can go verify.

 

[Appalachian]

I’d have to go dig the results out to be sure but I think it was 10 rds. Then this lot was shot again against a few other good looking lots to verify the best for me that day. The second verification group was a little larger. Going from memory until I can go verify.

Don’t bother. It’s a good group either way. I was just wondering. I was there Monday. I took a new gun and although we went through more lots than last time I didn’t get anything as good as the first time. I’m pretty sure it’s the rifle though and not the lots. The lot I bought will probably shoot better in my other rifles.

 

[grauhanen]

Was the 11.67mm group a 10 shot or 20 shot group?

Test tunnel groups are usually ten shot groups, measured outside-to-outside. Ten-shot groups under 12mm outside-to-outside are very good. If it were a 20 shot group, with a stock Tikka barrel at that, it would be quite incredible.

In 2014 it was reported that a new 40-shot 50 meter record with .22LR (perhaps now bettered) was recorded at the indoor Eley test range in Germany. This now seven year old record, perhaps since improved on, was achieved not by shooting a 40 round group but by " software-calculated “consolidated” group size of four, separate 10-shot groups" consolidated as one.

The consolidated forty shot group was 12.4mm outside-to-outside. The rifle used was a Bleiker that was clamped in a testing vise. Note the size of the four ten-shot groups recorded with a very good rifle. The previous record, from 2007, was 13.2mm. For more details, see http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com...-shots-at-50m-new-record-at-eley-test-center/



For additional information to help put test tunnel results in perspective, there is a report on Lapua lot testing that was posted early last year on Sniper's Hide. It included test results for ten different rifles shooting ten different lots of Lapua ammo (it's not known if any of the rifles shot the same lots).

Only four of the ten rifles scored a best ten-shot group that was under 12mm outside-to-outside.

The entire report, including the chart shown below, can be found here https://www.snipershide.com/precisi...est-facility-what-should-you-expect-in-gains/




The above image, which is the complete chart, is divided into two parts below so that the data is easier to see.

 

[justin amateur]

12.4 mm is about 0.49 inches, minus 0.2 inches is 0.29 inches center to center for 40 shots.
At 100 yards that'd be about 0.87 inches, and at 200 yards 2.6 inches of spread.
I can see that happening in a test tunnel.
Almost happened outdoors with a box of Eley Match for 50 shots.

200 yards with rimfire

Finally had a no wind morning so I gave the Lapua Biathlon Xtreme a try. 50 shots at 200 yards with a CZ 455 Varmint, Lilja barrel, Sinclair bipod and bag This box was extremely erratic as the results and chrony numbers show. The Lapua X-Act did a bit better Brand/label/price is no...

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