I have purchased 6.5 CM Hornady 140 ELD Match ammo several times this year and have been disappointed at the velocity and extreme spread I have been seeing. Hornady lists 2710 fps (24" test barrel). I have been getting 2655 avg with a recent build (24" barrel with about 150 rounds through it so far). Also, I am seeing extreme spreads of around 50 fps. About 2-3 years ago I used the 140 ELD Match factory ammo in a different rifle (26" barrel) and was getting 2750-ish with much lower extreme spreads. I thought maybe I just had a "slow barrel" on the new build but then I recently tried Berger 144 LRHT (factory ammo). Berger lists the ammo as 2830 fps (26" test barrel). I chrono'd the Berger ammo today and got 2840 fps avg, SD 8, and ES 19. Now I am even more disappointed with the Hornady ammo than I was before. Has anyone else seen inconsistencies with recently manufactured Hornady 6.5 CM ammo or is my experience the exception?
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Range Report Disappointing results from Hornady 6.5 CM 140 ELD Match factory ammo
- Thread starter ZFletcher
- Start date
2800 FPS out of a proof SS 24” barrel.
last box I shot had ES of about 30 and SD about 12.
I’m not sure where your expectations derive from for factory ammo ES/SD.
ES in teens and single digit SD is, in my limited experience, not realistic for factory ammo and is more in the realm of hand loads.
I'm trying to remember what I got out of Spark Munitions with that 135 Bergers... but I want to say it was 30ES and 11SD. Which wasnt too bad...
With match brass I'm seeing 22ES and 6SD... and that's pretty good, but it's not factory ammo.
This is a bolt gun with handloads showing warm vs cool variations:
www.snipershide.com
This is a gas gun showing alot of different factory rounds:
The numbers you're seeing are actually good.
With match brass I'm seeing 22ES and 6SD... and that's pretty good, but it's not factory ammo.
This is a bolt gun with handloads showing warm vs cool variations:
6.5 Creedmoor
By the way, the Alpha brass arrived this morning. I ordered 300 pieces of brass. They arrived in a nice range case (100 per case). I selected 10 from each package. The lightest was 171.00gr and the heaviest was 171.78gr with the average right at 171.38gr. That's pretty ridiculous. The Hornady...
www.snipershide.com
This is a gas gun showing alot of different factory rounds:
The numbers you're seeing are actually good.
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My expectations (which were NOT of having an the ES in teens, nor of a single digit SD) were derived from having much better results with the Hornady 140 ELD Match (and 143 ELD-X) ammo a few years back with a different rifle, as well as a few friends I shoot with who were also using the same stuff in their rifles. While I wasn't expecting an ES in the teens, I also wasn't expecting an ES of 50. I was mostly surprised at the slower velocity. Regardless, I think it reasonable to be disappointed with 2655 fps and ES of 50. I am not saying this is to be blamed on Hornady (although it is possible), I am merely asking if anyone has experienced anything similar with regards to recently purchased (i.e. since the plague shortage began) Hornady factory 6.5 CM ammo. Obviously the Berger numbers exceeded my expectations, but I included those numbers primarily to show that the rifle doesn't have a "slow barrel".
FWIW: Just to beat a dead horse... this is from a GAS gun and it's pretty good:
Hornady 140gr ELD-M (rifle cooled for 30 minutes) - SD and ES literally half of the prior string.
I'm wondering if you rifle just doesn't like the Hornady rounds?
Hornady 140gr ELD-M (rifle cooled for 30 minutes) - SD and ES literally half of the prior string.
| Series No | 14 | |
| Total number of shots | 10 | |
| Units velocity | fps | |
| Units distances | yd | |
| Units kinetic energy | ft-lbf | |
| Units weight | grain (gr) | |
| Stats - Average | 2670.78 | fps |
| Stats - Highest | 2680.92 | fps |
| Stats - Lowest | 2656.47 | fps |
| Stats - Ext. Spread | 24.45 | fps |
| Stats - Std. Dev | 7.15 | fps |
I'm wondering if you rifle just doesn't like the Hornady rounds?
Yes, that certainly could be. I figured if I was the only one who was getting less than ideal numbers that is likely to be the case, but if other people were seeing the same thing (low velocity, high ES, etc) on recently manufactured Hornady factory ammo then maybe something on their end to be aware of. I have pretty much always used the Hornady stuff in the past and never was disappointed (until now). It tends to be easier to get than Berger ammo so I certainly would like to have it as an option, but not if it's going to (under)perform as it has (at least in my rifle).
Now, now....calming breath, I wasn't throwing you any shade. Just wondered where your expectations for ES/SD on factory ammo came from as I have not found any factory ammo that does much better than what you found when a sufficient sized set of data is looked at.
These are LabRadar data in 24" Proof SS with ELD-M...excuse the 147 gr....got a little carried away with Snipping Tool! haha
Now this is what I have from Berger and Prime....not a lot different.
And Federal with Berger 135 Hybrid Hunter and FGGM
I don't have any factory ammo chrono'd that meets what you are looking for or what @GBMaryland got but his data includes only 10 data points so I wonder how that set would look if he had a much larger set. All 72 shots of the Hornaday 140 gr came out to average of 2807 fps, ES on them all of 94 due to one very slow outlier and if I toss that one out there is another just 10 fps faster but both are outliers in a 72 shot data set (and wtf knows why these two/three are so slow), and an SD of 17.
I to believe that Hndy QA has gone a bit slack as they are totally in the weeds. I'm finding the occasional brand new cartridge that is very hard to close the bolt on due to excessive width near the base.
Best of luck to you.
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I have to look at the manufacturing date on all of that 147 and 140 stuff I have, but I suspect that if you were to sort by weight the outliers can be removed.
Granted I’d probably only do that if I knew I needed X number of rounds for a particular match... and it would be annoying to actually have to do that at all. However I do do that with all of my brass anyway, when I’m loading for myself.
I would suspect that just about every recent ammunition manufacturers loads may be a little more out of spec due to the pace of manufacture, as implied.
Granted I’d probably only do that if I knew I needed X number of rounds for a particular match... and it would be annoying to actually have to do that at all. However I do do that with all of my brass anyway, when I’m loading for myself.
I would suspect that just about every recent ammunition manufacturers loads may be a little more out of spec due to the pace of manufacture, as implied.
Thank you very much for your detailed response, it is much appreciated.
While you do show pretty high numbers for ES, your SD numbers seem to be quite respectable for factory ammo. I am not a pro at numbers by any measure, but I would think that while the larger sample size is certainly better and more advantageous for avg & SD it opens up the door for wide ES. If I fire 5 rounds and get a 50 ES that seems to be worse than firing 30 rounds and getting a 50 ES....the more rounds one fires the more likely that outliers will occur and thus increase the ES. If one were to fire 100 rounds I would expect that ES to get even higher, even while maintaining a solid average and very good SD.
Your data from the 140 ELD factory ammo shows you're averaging about 2800 fps from a 24" Proof barrel, I also was using a 24 inch Proof barrel and averaging 2655. And while I certainly wasn't expecting anywhere close to 2800, I was at least expecting in the neighborhood of their 2710 advertised velocity. I typically only chrono for 10 rounds as I have a Magnetospeed and it changes my POI so I feel like I am wasting ammo when I use it, but I mostly am looking for avg fps for my dope, and to a lesser extent ES/SD for consistency.
I don't think my Hornady numbers are horrible, but just not what I have come to expect from my experience with it in the past. I certainly do not expect handload-quality numbers from factory ammo, but the numbers I am getting from my recent (post-pandemic) purchases are not what I have been used to seeing in the past with Hornady match grade ammo.
Yes, my friend....but we are both rather easily annoyed...me more than you! hahahaha ;-)
Well, I hated statistics and almost failed it....and don't remember squat.
BUT, each shot is an individual event without correlation to any other shot and I think that one could have the first two shots be outliers both high and low for an very high ES as easily as not. But I should think that the chances of getting to an outlier increases with the data set size. And yes, the larger the data set, the better the SD should be even if the ES was driven by a few outliers.
Hey, anybody here a statistician (Benjamin Disraeli "lies, damn lies, and statistics haha)
Yes, its a fast barrel and ALL of my 6.5 CM data with all different factory loads exceeds the box MV. AND my LabRadar is working fine as ELD-X 178 gr .308 does indeed clock at avg of 2,500 fps so....dunno why this 6.5 barrel is so fast.
Is yours a SS or CF? Mine is SS with MTU contour.
Yeah, I think these guys are running 24x7 making ammo and QA is suffering as you would expect. Personally, I'm just glad to have ammo right now.
Best of luck.
Agreed on all counts! I am also glad to have ammo (even though it hurts a bit to click that "place order" button at times).
It a CF Sendero profile.
Thanks for your replies and my best to you as well!!!
Accuracy-wise it shoots very good with the factory loads I have run through it, which has only been 3 types...140 ELD, Berger 144, and 143 ELD-X. I didn't chrono the ELD-X's, just ran half a box through out of curiosity.
My new-ish 140 ELDM Factory ammo is running 2700 with SD in the teens through a broken-in 26" Bartlein M24 spun by Altus.
The ammo still shoots bugholes, but is slow AF. My buddy shoots factory Berger 144 ammo going 2800+ in a 26", FML!
I'm hoping the Prime 130 Backorder arrives soon, lol.
The ammo still shoots bugholes, but is slow AF. My buddy shoots factory Berger 144 ammo going 2800+ in a 26", FML!
I'm hoping the Prime 130 Backorder arrives soon, lol.
They're probably scrounging like the rest of us...may not be the same recipe they've been using (100% speculation on my behalf). However, if you go to Midway and look up their 147gr ELD-M, it says "discontinued." Wondering if that's due to the raw materials shortages, or they're looking at another projectile?
Midway uses poor wording and often puts that on stuff they aren't carrying, not that the manufacturer actually discontinued it.
Hornady still lists the ammo and the projectile as current products.
Hornady still lists the ammo and the projectile as current products.
The 5000 count was discountinued. They make more money breaking them off into 1000 quantity and adding an additional $30 to your order in hazmat and shipping.
I haven't shot factory Hornady ammo since it was loaded with the Amax, so I don't really have anything to add except for a thought:
Is it possible what were seeing is lower QC due to extreme demand forcing products to be rushed? Hear me out. All of these manufacturers are saying their production levels are at unprecedented highs, which likely means they're putting some inexperienced folks along the assembly line, and with higher QC standards, the product takes longer to ship, so maybe their standards are relaxed a little and something slips through that would normally be rejected
Edit: I missed it the first time, but I'm in agreement with the last comment from @Baron23 above.
Is it possible what were seeing is lower QC due to extreme demand forcing products to be rushed? Hear me out. All of these manufacturers are saying their production levels are at unprecedented highs, which likely means they're putting some inexperienced folks along the assembly line, and with higher QC standards, the product takes longer to ship, so maybe their standards are relaxed a little and something slips through that would normally be rejected
Edit: I missed it the first time, but I'm in agreement with the last comment from @Baron23 above.
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Well, it could have gotten worse recently, but I see similar ES/SD numbers as the OP on 140ELD I'm shooting now that was purchased in 2018 and stored in optimal conditions. My MV numbers from a 26" Krieger with 3000 rounds on it are still pushing 2800 though (but quite a bit less if it's cold weather). Out of my 26" AXMC (maybe 300 rounds on it) the same ammo is at least 50 fps slower. Yet in the AXMC that Berger 144 ammo just gave me a 10 shot string of MV-2849, ES - 25, SD - 8.4. In other words, Berger ammo is loaded HOT. I had to get the Small Firing Pin 308 bolt for the AXMC to shoot it because the Large pin bolt allowed the primers to blow.
The Berger has always been loaded particularly warm, but dammit, it's so freaking accurate!!! It was my factory ammo of choice because it shot so well and it's loaded in Lapua brass
Was going to post in the 6.5CM Main thread but this thread matches the topic to the "T".
Curiosity or just checking baseline I was also surprised (and disappointed) of the speed I saw from the factory 140gr ELD M.
(24" 1-8 Howa).
Not sure how the OP confirmed a 24" test barrel from Hornady but maybe they tested out of a 26" to get the advertised 2710 FPS? Its the only thing I could think of to compensate for the low velocity.
Curiosity or just checking baseline I was also surprised (and disappointed) of the speed I saw from the factory 140gr ELD M.
(24" 1-8 Howa).
Not sure how the OP confirmed a 24" test barrel from Hornady but maybe they tested out of a 26" to get the advertised 2710 FPS? Its the only thing I could think of to compensate for the low velocity.
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