I recently started working up a load in my almost new Rem 5R and found the accuracy noticeably better when I got up to 43.0 grns RL15 / 175SMK, Lapua brass, Fed 210M. I am averaging 2583fps with this load with no noticeable signs of pressure. The manuals say I should be quite a bit faster than that. I would like to keep advancing upward, but that powder charge is already over max in some of my manuals. I am wanting at least 2650fps, if possible. This is the first time I've felt I'm in "uncharted waters" with load data. Should I trust pressure signs from my rifle (sticky bolt, flattened/cratered primers, ejector swipes, etc.) to continue upward? Thanks-
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Do I have a "slow rifle"?
- Thread starter Fatelvis
- Start date
Re: Do I have a "slow rifle"?
I would keep increasing the charge in small increments and pay close attention for pressure signs.
I would keep increasing the charge in small increments and pay close attention for pressure signs.
Re: Do I have a "slow rifle"?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Flintlock Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Have you only tried RL-15? You might wanna try some other powders. I personally like Varget. </div></div>
I have 10lbs of RL15 and only a 1lb of Varget, so I'd like to use RL15 if possible. Especially since buying bulk powder is almost impossible right now!
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Flintlock Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Have you only tried RL-15? You might wanna try some other powders. I personally like Varget. </div></div>
I have 10lbs of RL15 and only a 1lb of Varget, so I'd like to use RL15 if possible. Especially since buying bulk powder is almost impossible right now!
Re: Do I have a "slow rifle"?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: McCourt Munitions LLC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Barrel length?
</div></div>
24"
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: McCourt Munitions LLC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Barrel length?
</div></div>
24"
Re: Do I have a "slow rifle"?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: gpz750</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I would keep increasing the charge in small increments and pay close attention for pressure signs. </div></div>
What do you consider small increments? .2grn? .5grn? Thnx
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: gpz750</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I would keep increasing the charge in small increments and pay close attention for pressure signs. </div></div>
What do you consider small increments? .2grn? .5grn? Thnx
Re: Do I have a "slow rifle"?
Its difficult to get any 175gr moving faster than 2600fps through a .308 without getting pressure signs. I carry a shell holder to the range with me during load development. When the brass won't slide easily in and out of the shell holder I STOP...usually already got the 'classic' pressure signs several powder charges prior
Its difficult to get any 175gr moving faster than 2600fps through a .308 without getting pressure signs. I carry a shell holder to the range with me during load development. When the brass won't slide easily in and out of the shell holder I STOP...usually already got the 'classic' pressure signs several powder charges prior
Re: Do I have a "slow rifle"?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: insight3b</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I carry a shell holder to the range with me during load development. When the brass won't slide easily in and out of the shell holder I STOP... </div></div>
Wow! Great idea! That will indicate when the head swells to an unacceptable size, correct?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: insight3b</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I carry a shell holder to the range with me during load development. When the brass won't slide easily in and out of the shell holder I STOP... </div></div>
Wow! Great idea! That will indicate when the head swells to an unacceptable size, correct?
Re: Do I have a "slow rifle"?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Fatelvis</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: insight3b</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I carry a shell holder to the range with me during load development. When the brass won't slide easily in and out of the shell holder I STOP... </div></div>
Wow! Great idea! That will indicate when the head swells to an unacceptable size, correct? </div></div>
Its caused because there is so much pressure that it actually begins to collapse the case...use this method with EXTREME caution working powder charge up in .01 increments
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Fatelvis</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: insight3b</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I carry a shell holder to the range with me during load development. When the brass won't slide easily in and out of the shell holder I STOP... </div></div>
Wow! Great idea! That will indicate when the head swells to an unacceptable size, correct? </div></div>
Its caused because there is so much pressure that it actually begins to collapse the case...use this method with EXTREME caution working powder charge up in .01 increments
Re: Do I have a "slow rifle"?
If you can't get the speed with R15 and are willing to try another powder, look for some Alliant 2000MR. 2700+ fps is easy with 175 SMK's and 2000MR. I'm running 178gr AMAX's at 2746fps from my 26" barreled PSS.
If you can't get the speed with R15 and are willing to try another powder, look for some Alliant 2000MR. 2700+ fps is easy with 175 SMK's and 2000MR. I'm running 178gr AMAX's at 2746fps from my 26" barreled PSS.
Re: Do I have a "slow rifle"?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: thespecialist</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If you can't get the speed with R15 and are willing to try another powder, look for some Alliant 2000MR. 2700+ fps is easy with 175 SMK's and 2000MR. I'm running 178gr AMAX's at 2746fps from my 26" barreled PSS. </div></div>
Good point, but can you find it in volume anywhere? Don't think so... I generally only buy 5-8lbs of one powder at a time. I like keeping the lot while working up loads.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: thespecialist</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If you can't get the speed with R15 and are willing to try another powder, look for some Alliant 2000MR. 2700+ fps is easy with 175 SMK's and 2000MR. I'm running 178gr AMAX's at 2746fps from my 26" barreled PSS. </div></div>
Good point, but can you find it in volume anywhere? Don't think so... I generally only buy 5-8lbs of one powder at a time. I like keeping the lot while working up loads.
Re: Do I have a "slow rifle"?
No, that is on my M1A. I do have Kenton knobs on my 5R that are calibrated for a 175SMK @ 2600 at 600' above sea level. I spent $200 for the windage and ele turrets, and want them to be as close to accurate as possible. I just tried it at 600yds and they were .5MOA low with my 2580 load, but did produce a nice 4" group. I figure if I can bump up the load to the low 2600s, it'll be right on.
No, that is on my M1A. I do have Kenton knobs on my 5R that are calibrated for a 175SMK @ 2600 at 600' above sea level. I spent $200 for the windage and ele turrets, and want them to be as close to accurate as possible. I just tried it at 600yds and they were .5MOA low with my 2580 load, but did produce a nice 4" group. I figure if I can bump up the load to the low 2600s, it'll be right on.
Re: Do I have a "slow rifle"?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Fatelvis</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: thespecialist</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If you can't get the speed with R15 and are willing to try another powder, look for some Alliant 2000MR. 2700+ fps is easy with 175 SMK's and 2000MR. I'm running 178gr AMAX's at 2746fps from my 26" barreled PSS. </div></div>
Good point, but can you find it in volume anywhere? Don't think so... I generally only buy 5-8lbs of one powder at a time. I like keeping the lot while working up loads. </div></div>
Midway has it in 1lb and 8lb, Natchez is the same, as is 3rg Generation Shooters Supply. It's not hard to find in quantity at all if you look. The local store here had 20 1lb bottles of it on the shelf Friday where Varget, R15,etc were wiped out.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Fatelvis</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: thespecialist</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If you can't get the speed with R15 and are willing to try another powder, look for some Alliant 2000MR. 2700+ fps is easy with 175 SMK's and 2000MR. I'm running 178gr AMAX's at 2746fps from my 26" barreled PSS. </div></div>
Good point, but can you find it in volume anywhere? Don't think so... I generally only buy 5-8lbs of one powder at a time. I like keeping the lot while working up loads. </div></div>
Midway has it in 1lb and 8lb, Natchez is the same, as is 3rg Generation Shooters Supply. It's not hard to find in quantity at all if you look. The local store here had 20 1lb bottles of it on the shelf Friday where Varget, R15,etc were wiped out.
Re: Do I have a "slow rifle"?
Wow, you're right! It must be too new for people to start hoarding it. Thanks! Now....it appears to be in the same burn range as RL17.Is it very similar? I do like the idea of gaining a little more velocity, without pushing the pressure envelope into dangerous levels.
Wow, you're right! It must be too new for people to start hoarding it. Thanks! Now....it appears to be in the same burn range as RL17.Is it very similar? I do like the idea of gaining a little more velocity, without pushing the pressure envelope into dangerous levels.
Re: Do I have a "slow rifle"?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Fatelvis</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Wow, you're right! It must be too new for people to start hoarding it. Thanks! Now....it appears to be in the same burn range as RL17.Is it very similar? I do like the idea of gaining a little more velocity, without pushing the pressure envelope into dangerous levels. </div></div>
It's between R17 and R15 as far as burn rate, from what I understand. Temp sensitivity has been around .8fps per degree for me, but I haven't had a chance to shoot it in temps above 90 degrees yet to see if it'll behave itself in the heat.
I am tempted to try it in my 260 when I get it finished, unless H4350 reappears on shelves before then.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Fatelvis</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Wow, you're right! It must be too new for people to start hoarding it. Thanks! Now....it appears to be in the same burn range as RL17.Is it very similar? I do like the idea of gaining a little more velocity, without pushing the pressure envelope into dangerous levels. </div></div>
It's between R17 and R15 as far as burn rate, from what I understand. Temp sensitivity has been around .8fps per degree for me, but I haven't had a chance to shoot it in temps above 90 degrees yet to see if it'll behave itself in the heat.
I am tempted to try it in my 260 when I get it finished, unless H4350 reappears on shelves before then.
Re: Do I have a "slow rifle"?
Fatelvis....I think the shell holder method is too crude for long brass life. "Handloader Magazine" published an article some years ago about using case head expansion as a pressure sign. The bottom line...use a good micrometer and measure the unfired case heads. Start your work up, come up .3 grains at a time. The case head will begin to expand. When it reaches .001" expansion, stop increasing. It won't grow much at all at that level. If you increase above that point and keep loading to higher pressures, it will continue to expand, and the primer pockets will loosen to the point that the case is unusuable. FWIW.
Fatelvis....I think the shell holder method is too crude for long brass life. "Handloader Magazine" published an article some years ago about using case head expansion as a pressure sign. The bottom line...use a good micrometer and measure the unfired case heads. Start your work up, come up .3 grains at a time. The case head will begin to expand. When it reaches .001" expansion, stop increasing. It won't grow much at all at that level. If you increase above that point and keep loading to higher pressures, it will continue to expand, and the primer pockets will loosen to the point that the case is unusuable. FWIW.
Re: Do I have a "slow rifle"?
^^ sounds like real good info there. Especially with Lapaua brass, primer pockets seem to loosen before other obvious signs of pressure.
^^ sounds like real good info there. Especially with Lapaua brass, primer pockets seem to loosen before other obvious signs of pressure.
Re: Do I have a "slow rifle"?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: thespecialist</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If you can't get the speed with R15 and are willing to try another powder, look for some Alliant 2000MR. 2700+ fps is easy with 175 SMK's and 2000MR. I'm running 178gr AMAX's at 2746fps from my 26" barreled PSS. </div></div>
Thanks Specialist! Now you got me Googling and searching for any 2000mr facts! It sounds like it would fill my particular needs exactly!
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: thespecialist</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If you can't get the speed with R15 and are willing to try another powder, look for some Alliant 2000MR. 2700+ fps is easy with 175 SMK's and 2000MR. I'm running 178gr AMAX's at 2746fps from my 26" barreled PSS. </div></div>
Thanks Specialist! Now you got me Googling and searching for any 2000mr facts! It sounds like it would fill my particular needs exactly!
Re: Do I have a "slow rifle"?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Fatelvis</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: insight3b</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I carry a shell holder to the range with me during load development. When the brass won't slide easily in and out of the shell holder I STOP... </div></div>
Wow! Great idea! That will indicate when the head swells to an unacceptable size, correct? </div></div>
To give you an idea of where these loads are at pressure wise, in my experience
proof loads never expand cases to this degree. Following this advice will cost you a match, a rifle, or an eye if you follow it long enough.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Fatelvis</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: insight3b</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I carry a shell holder to the range with me during load development. When the brass won't slide easily in and out of the shell holder I STOP... </div></div>
Wow! Great idea! That will indicate when the head swells to an unacceptable size, correct? </div></div>
To give you an idea of where these loads are at pressure wise, in my experience
proof loads never expand cases to this degree. Following this advice will cost you a match, a rifle, or an eye if you follow it long enough.
Re: Do I have a "slow rifle"?
First you probably don't need another powder. Re15 & 175smk in a 308 is as common with precision as you can get practically.
Continue to work up as others suggest.
Lastly, and I know this is gonna stir some ire, so to all the guys that believe their chronograph is the word of God, great glad you can trust it.
There is no guarantee that the numbers you are seeing are accurate. You need to shoot the load at 3 different distances preferably out to over 600yds before youwill know the ACTUAL speed. Use your come ups or DOPE to compare in balistics program making careful note of atmospheric conditions to punch in as well. When your dope matches the program trajectory, that is your actual velocity.I could show you easier than I can explain.
Nonethe less if youaren't seeing pressure signs then youhave abit togo yet. At the same time I rate accuracy far far above speed. You often don't get the best of both.
First you probably don't need another powder. Re15 & 175smk in a 308 is as common with precision as you can get practically.
Continue to work up as others suggest.
Lastly, and I know this is gonna stir some ire, so to all the guys that believe their chronograph is the word of God, great glad you can trust it.
There is no guarantee that the numbers you are seeing are accurate. You need to shoot the load at 3 different distances preferably out to over 600yds before youwill know the ACTUAL speed. Use your come ups or DOPE to compare in balistics program making careful note of atmospheric conditions to punch in as well. When your dope matches the program trajectory, that is your actual velocity.I could show you easier than I can explain.
Nonethe less if youaren't seeing pressure signs then youhave abit togo yet. At the same time I rate accuracy far far above speed. You often don't get the best of both.
Re: Do I have a "slow rifle"?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: armorpl8chikn</div><div class="ubbcode-body">First you probably don't need another powder. Re15 & 175smk in a 308 is as common with precision as you can get practically.
Continue to work up as others suggest.
Lastly, and I know this is gonna stir some ire, so to all the guys that believe their chronograph is the word of God, great glad you can trust it.
There is no guarantee that the numbers you are seeing are accurate. You need to shoot the load at 3 different distances preferably out to over 600yds before youwill know the ACTUAL speed. Use your come ups or DOPE to compare in balistics program making careful note of atmospheric conditions to punch in as well. When your dope matches the program trajectory, that is your actual velocity.I could show you easier than I can explain.
Nonethe less if youaren't seeing pressure signs then youhave abit togo yet. At the same time I rate accuracy far far above speed. You often don't get the best of both. </div></div>
A chronograph is great for measuring relative speeds. How much faster or slower the accompanying rounds are.
I use mine only to check for consistent speeds ie low ES, SD, MAD. For actual use I prefer to rely bullet drop at measured distances. Far better to do that and then have Kenton match the knobs to what you're getting from your rifle, along with the desired accuracy, rather than trying to match a pair of knobs you invested in based on a desired speed.
On powder that gives more speed, I'm really liking CFE223 in my 5-R Milspec along with 178gr Amax bullets.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: armorpl8chikn</div><div class="ubbcode-body">First you probably don't need another powder. Re15 & 175smk in a 308 is as common with precision as you can get practically.
Continue to work up as others suggest.
Lastly, and I know this is gonna stir some ire, so to all the guys that believe their chronograph is the word of God, great glad you can trust it.
There is no guarantee that the numbers you are seeing are accurate. You need to shoot the load at 3 different distances preferably out to over 600yds before youwill know the ACTUAL speed. Use your come ups or DOPE to compare in balistics program making careful note of atmospheric conditions to punch in as well. When your dope matches the program trajectory, that is your actual velocity.I could show you easier than I can explain.
Nonethe less if youaren't seeing pressure signs then youhave abit togo yet. At the same time I rate accuracy far far above speed. You often don't get the best of both. </div></div>
A chronograph is great for measuring relative speeds. How much faster or slower the accompanying rounds are.
I use mine only to check for consistent speeds ie low ES, SD, MAD. For actual use I prefer to rely bullet drop at measured distances. Far better to do that and then have Kenton match the knobs to what you're getting from your rifle, along with the desired accuracy, rather than trying to match a pair of knobs you invested in based on a desired speed.
On powder that gives more speed, I'm really liking CFE223 in my 5-R Milspec along with 178gr Amax bullets.
Re: Do I have a "slow rifle"?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Deadshot2</div><div class="ubbcode-body">On powder that gives more speed, I'm really liking CFE223 in my 5-R Milspec along with 178gr Amax bullets. </div></div>
What speeds are you getting with CFE223?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Deadshot2</div><div class="ubbcode-body">On powder that gives more speed, I'm really liking CFE223 in my 5-R Milspec along with 178gr Amax bullets. </div></div>
What speeds are you getting with CFE223?
Re: Do I have a "slow rifle"?
I went from 2680 with 44.5 varget to 2770 with pp 2000 mr with Better accuracy and increased range with 175 smk. Out of a. Gap Crusader w/ a 22" bartlein. I hear cfe is pretty much the same thing
I went from 2680 with 44.5 varget to 2770 with pp 2000 mr with Better accuracy and increased range with 175 smk. Out of a. Gap Crusader w/ a 22" bartlein. I hear cfe is pretty much the same thing
Re: Do I have a "slow rifle"?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Fatelvis</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Deadshot2</div><div class="ubbcode-body">On powder that gives more speed, I'm really liking CFE223 in my 5-R Milspec along with 178gr Amax bullets. </div></div>
What speeds are you getting with CFE223? </div></div>
I'll let you know after Friday's range session. I'm still working UP the load.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Fatelvis</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Deadshot2</div><div class="ubbcode-body">On powder that gives more speed, I'm really liking CFE223 in my 5-R Milspec along with 178gr Amax bullets. </div></div>
What speeds are you getting with CFE223? </div></div>
I'll let you know after Friday's range session. I'm still working UP the load.
