Do Pretty Groups Mean Anything?

[Buck Wilde]

I guess this is a general question, but it involves a rimfire, so here I am.

I got myself a new T1x, and I am testing types of ammunition at short range. I am zeroing at 35 yards, and I will be moving out to 50 yards once I have favorites. The final goal is to kill squirrels.

I shot several types of ammo the other day at 35, and while an Eley product came in with the smallest groups (0.468"), cheap CCI Blazers shot prettier groups (0.555"). Each group was one nice round hole. The Eley groups were irregular.

Should a shooter conclude anything from the fact that one brand of ammunition shoots nice, round, symmetrical groups?

I was pretty surprised by the Blazers. I also shot CCI Sub-Sonics, and I got a nasty flyer I'm pretty sure I didn't cause.

 

[J_D]

It's rimfire. Certain guns prefer a certain brand or even specific lots. There are always flyers, but the more premium in general you'll get tighter groups just based on quality control alone.

That said I've had lots of CX beat Midas+, and Eley Match beat Tenex, or even SK Red, beat them all......if you're wanting groups and accuracy, you need to lot test period. Everything else is just rimfire being rimfire.

 

[oldrifleman]

Stretch it out to 50 and see if the groups stay good. Not being a Squirrel shooter, what ranges do you take shots at? That is the range I would do my final ammo selection at. If all is equal, get a bunch of the same lot of what ever you choose. Remember ammo can vary by lot number.

 

[Buck Wilde]

I chose to zero at 35 yards because a typical shot is 50-100 feet. I shot 4 consecutive 10-round groups of each ammo.

I didn't know if the difference in the groups had something to do with the barrel's temperature or the ammo or what. I don't think Blazers are better than Eley. Not suggesting that. It seems to be pretty amazing for the price and reputation, though, in this gun.

 

[TheBigCountry]

 

[KnowNothing256]

The following are my opinions, worth what you've paid:

Group size matters more than shape, and if you shoot enough shots, they'll all end up basically circular, or worse with fliers. 10 rds is plenty reasonable in my opinion though.

I do think you should shoot at 50 yds or farther though, at a time with no wind. 35 yds is close enough that it can be hard to resolve the individual holes; farther distances make it much easier to see where each bullet actually went. Too far and wind becomes too much of an effect to distill "was that the ammo or was it wind."

And you can absolutely kill squirrels much farther away, with a quality rifle and ammo. But I shoot PRS22, so my expectations are different than the typical small game hunter. I personally would sooner choose LRN bullets I knew were accurate versus "hunting" bullets that weren't; however, for 100 yds and in, I found these bullets to be pretty dang accurate in my older CZ455 and utterly lethal:

Buy Segmented Hollow Point 22 LR Ammo 40 | 74

Shopping for the Segmented Hollow Point - Learn more about the latest Segmented Hollow Point and other hunting or shooting gear at CCI.

www.cci-ammunition.com

 

[littlepod]

I only aim for the eyes, if it isn't an eye shot, it doesn't count.

Everyone's points are valid above - use / pay the cost for what is good enough for you. I won't be shooting Lapua X-Act for my offhand silhouette matches at 3" chickens at 25yds. I might consider Lapua X-Act if I was shooting a Benchrest National Championship.

If you're talking about a Squirrel at 33 yards, and that Squirrel is 9" tall and 5" wide, I really don't think ammo / group size is going to make a difference.

 

[Buck Wilde]

The following are my opinions, worth what you've paid:

Group size matters more than shape, and if you shoot enough shots, they'll all end up basically circular, or worse with fliers. 10 rds is plenty reasonable in my opinion though.

I do think you should shoot at 50 yds or farther though, at a time with no wind. 35 yds is close enough that it can be hard to resolve the individual holes; farther distances make it much easier to see where each bullet actually went. Too far and wind becomes too much of an effect to distill "was that the ammo or was it wind."

And you can absolutely kill squirrels much farther away, with a quality rifle and ammo. But I shoot PRS22, so my expectations are different than the typical small game hunter. I personally would sooner choose LRN bullets I knew were accurate versus "hunting" bullets that weren't; however, for 100 yds and in, I found these bullets to be pretty dang accurate in my older CZ455 and utterly lethal:

Buy Segmented Hollow Point 22 LR Ammo 40 | 74

Shopping for the Segmented Hollow Point - Learn more about the latest Segmented Hollow Point and other hunting or shooting gear at CCI.

www.cci-ammunition.com

I amazed that you found that stuff. CCI must have just produced a new batch. I Googled like crazy last week, and it was not available anywhere. Maybe on Gunbroker for a dollar a round, but no reasonable prices. Not that CCI's 14 cents per shot is cheap.

I was shooting at 35 because I wanted the scope to be right for the distances I shoot here, but I suppose it would be smarter to test ammo at a longer distance, pick something I like, and go back to 35.

The Blazers will do just fine, so I have something cheap to fall back on while I try other ammunition.

 

[Mr. Z]

Yes, please.
Shoot the Blazer and use those lapped rings.

You do you Jiggaboo. It’s gonna work swell.

You ask shitty questions, and don’t shoot enough.

Just go out and shoot the fuckers.

 

[Buck Wilde]

You should read more. You might get good at it.

 

[DuneBoer]

I shot several types of ammo the other day at 35, and while an Eley product came in with the smallest groups (0.468"), cheap CCI Blazers shot prettier groups (0.555"). Each group was one nice round hole. The Eley groups were irregular.

Pictures or it didn't happen.

 

[ballisticdaddy]

I guess this is a general question, but it involves a rimfire, so here I am.

I got myself a new T1x, and I am testing types of ammunition at short range. I am zeroing at 35 yards, and I will be moving out to 50 yards once I have favorites. The final goal is to kill squirrels.

I shot several types of ammo the other day at 35, and while an Eley product came in with the smallest groups (0.468"), cheap CCI Blazers shot prettier groups (0.555"). Each group was one nice round hole. The Eley groups were irregular.

Should a shooter conclude anything from the fact that one brand of ammunition shoots nice, round, symmetrical groups?

I was pretty surprised by the Blazers. I also shot CCI Sub-Sonics, and I got a nasty flyer I'm pretty sure I didn't cause.

You should have googled the title of this thread, ask a stupid question and get......

Do Pretty Groups Mean Anything?​

 

[Buck Wilde]

I asked the question because some things about ballistics are counterintuitive, and I thought someone with tons of knowledge might have some input. Not trying to waste people's time. A lot of weird things happen on the range. For example, I have seen people have groups move to the left or right when changing ammo. That is bizarre. Up or down, I would understand.

The Eley shots took up less space, but the groups are kind of stringy.

I should have used the same kind of target twice, but I got out there and realized I had brought an 8" target, so I used it, shooting at 4 different places. I do this a lot anyway, to save money on targets.

 

[Buck Wilde]

You should have googled the title of this thread, ask a stupid question and get......

Do Pretty Groups Mean Anything?​

View attachment 8592983

I've been dealing with Dunning-Krugers ever since I was a kid and I said "library" and all the other kids said "liberry," so you are nothing new. Now run off to the liberry.

 

[Williwaw]

Do Pretty Groups Mean Anything?​

As this is rimfire the usual answer applies ... maybe. Not being a smarty but your sample size is insufficient to base a judgement upon. Note that I have seen a top world class benchrest competitor say that he would pick lot producing a slightly larger group if in was round.

Regards distance to test ... Test at the distance you plan to shoot at. There is no logical case for doing anything else.

 

[DuneBoer]

35 yards for rats? Get one of these. Cheap to shoot.

 

[Buck Wilde]

Thanks. What do you think would be a good sample size? This is 40 rounds per target.

Note that I have seen a top world class benchrest competitor say that he would pick lot producing a slightly larger group if in was round.

That's the kind of thing I was wondering about.

Test at the distance you plan to shoot at. There is no logical case for doing anything else.

You don't think I should shoot at 50 to test the ammo and then set the scope up for 35?

I ordered some CCI Sub-Sonic HP.

 

[Buck Wilde]

35 yards for rats? Get one of these. Cheap to shoot.

I wasted money on an expensive air rifle, shot a squirrel about a foot from the barrel, and it ran off. Supposedly faster than CCI Quiet. Good luck with a BB gun. Believe it or not, squirrels are tough.

The accuracy of that BB gun at 35 yards is about good enough to hit a watermelon.

 

[TheBigCountry]

You know what makes good 22 caliber shaped holes in a target when you want to brag on the internet about your so-called shooting skills?

A #2 pencil…

 

[Buck Wilde]

That's a fantastic tip. I'm writing all this down. Really.

 

[Emerson0311]

I test at 100, 10/group at first, and then 20. I want to see what percentage go high/low. If I know my abilities annd the rifle are better than the wind, I generally ignore most horizontal spread. Williwaw is a solid authority on this stuff.

 

[DuneBoer]

The accuracy of that BB gun at 35 yards is about good enough to hit a watermelon.

Pffft. Not if you do your part.

 

[Buck Wilde]

I test at 100, 10/group at first, and then 20. I want to see what percentage go high/low. If I know my abilities annd the rifle are better than the wind, I generally ignore most horizontal spread. Williwaw is a solid authority on this stuff.

Thanks.

 

[Williwaw]

Since your stated goal is hitting squirrels the tenth of an inch average group size difference is really pretty irrelevant if in fact it is real. You'll do best with the ammo you can best afford and has fewer fliers if you see a trend.

 

[Buck Wilde]

Yeah, the Blazers are fine. The other stuff is just for finding out what the Tikka will do.