Does ammo quality matter @ 100 yards?

[littlepod]

I had another question after getting feedback @ 100, 200 yards. I'm new to shooting larger caliber rifles, and I have a Tikka T3X CTR .308 20". I am noticing that due to the larger caliber, recoil, noise, psychologically there's things going on that is making me not shoot that well. On my 22 setup in matching KRG Bravos, same Athlon Ares ETR scopes, same comb and LOP, etc., both my fiance and I shoot 1-1.5" at 100 yards. On the 308, due to all the other factors, she's horrible at it... shooting maybe 3-4" groups @ 100 yards, and I'm okay (.6-1").

At 200, groups really open up for me. (1.5-3"). I shoot in an area where there really is no wind, and I mean I lob my 22LR @ 200 yards with only maybe a .1mil shift.

So question is, at 100-200 yards, does 308 ammo quality matter? At that velocity, no wind, cheap ammo with high SD in velocity will really make no difference? I should just practice with 30-40 cent cheap ammo rounds and they should all be able to achieve 1" groups @ 100? That way I can burn through getting my fundamentals, any flinching I do due to the larger caliber down, etc and not be shooting FGMM @ 100.

I'm looking to shoot a lot more to get better and get over whatever issues I have with shooting 308, so whatever the best cost effective way to do that is.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Copied from the 200yd topic:

What ammo one trains with is not as crucial as many think.

As long as that ammo shoots in a consistent manner, then its departure from that consistent manner can be used as a reference of how the shooter's skills are performing.

...Within reasonable limits. Garbage in = garbage out.

I switched from 308 for practice to 223/5.56. Part of it was cost, part of it was recoil. I do have a medical/physical issue with recoil, but mainly; I just wanted to sort recoil out of the mix of potential issues I might encounter when doing practice.

For practice, I typically use PPU 223 55gr FMJBT. It's consistent, has accuracy as good as most economical 55gr FMJBT, and the brass lends itself well to my practical handloading.

My match load (for 24" 1:9" barrels) is HDY 75gr HPBT Match, CCI 400/CCI BR-4 primer, PPU brass, 23.5gr-23.7gr of Varget. My records do not show a significant accuracy difference between CCI 400 and CCI BR-4 primers until distances get out to beyond 600yd with the HDY 75's. Mostly, that's because I'm not the best shooter doing those distances.

I use this load for both of my 24" types of barrels, Stag Model 6 Super Varminter AR (1:8" twist), and Savage 11VT Varmint/Target (1:9" twist). I set the cartridge seating depth to be equal to that of the PPU 55gr.

The Savage 11VT Varminter was distributed as a proprietary design by Dick's and is no longer available. I suggest the Savage 110 Varmint in its place.

The two barrel types don't like exactly the same load, so the powder charge has a slight variance to match that.

75gr loads are wasted at 100yd, and I use 55gr FMJBT for under 250yd-300yd. My main practice reload is PPU brass, CCI 400 primer, Hornady 55gr FMJBT W/C seated to equal the length of PPU 55gr ammunition, and 25.0gr-26.0gr of Varget, depending on pressure signs in the particular rifle.

If the fired primer edges are flat/sharp, pressure is too high.

Two extra things to concentrate on with practice. 1) Squeeze the trigger, moving (not pulling) it all the way back to the stop. Nothing should move but the finger. 2) Keep your head down on the stock for a follow-through count of three before popping your head up to see anything besides your sights.

Greg

 

[Pappakap]

For what it’s worth, I was told AFTER running through $100 dollars worth of boat tail hollow point 168gr. at 100 yards that it was a complete waste. The person who gave the advice said of you are trying to get trigger time and practice fundamentals find a bulk deal on some consistently made ammo in the caliber and grain of your choosing. Save your high dollar stuff for when you can stretch your legs out a little more.

 

[littlepod]

For what it’s worth, I was told AFTER running through $100 dollars worth of boat tail hollow point 168gr. at 100 yards that it was a complete waste. The person who gave the advice said of you are trying to get trigger time and practice fundamentals find a bulk deal on some consistently made ammo in the caliber and grain of your choosing. Save your high dollar stuff for when you can stretch your legs out a little more.

Copied from the 200yd topic:



I switched from 308 for practice to 223/5.56. Part of it was cost, part of it was recoil. I do have a medical/physical issue with recoil, but mainly; I just wanted to sort recoil out of the mix of potential issues I might encounter when doing practice.

For practice, I typically use PPU 223 55gr FMJBT. It's consistent, has accuracy as good as most economical 55gr FMJBT, and the brass lends itself well to my practical handloading.

My match load (for 24" 1:9" barrels) is HDY 75gr HPBT Match, CCI 400/CCI BR-4 primer, PPU brass, 23.5gr-23.7gr of Varget. My records do not show a significant accuracy difference between CCI 400 and CCI BR-4 primers until distances get out to beyond 600yd with the HDY 75's. Mostly, that's because I'm not the best shooter doing those distances.

I use this load for both of my 24" types of barrels, Stag Model 6 Super Varminter AR (1:8" twist), and Savage 11VT Varmint/Target (1:9" twist). I set the cartridge seating depth to be equal to that of the PPU 55gr.

The two barrel types don't like exactly the same load, so the powder charge has a slight variance to match that.

75gr loads are wasted at 100yd, and I use 55gr FMJBT for under 250yd-300yd. My main practice reload is PPU brass, CCI 400 primer, Hornady 55gr FMJBT W/C seated to equal the length of PPU 55gr ammunition, and 25.0gr-26.0gr of Varget, depending on pressure signs in the particular rifle.

If the fired primer edges are flat/sharp, pressure is too high.

Two extra things to concentrate on with practice. 1) Squeeze the trigger, moving (not pulling) it all the way back to the stop. Nothing should move but the finger. 2) Keep your head down on the stock for a follow-through count of three before popping your head up to see anything besides your sights.

Greg

Thanks Greg and Pappakap. I also have a .223 Wylde AR-15, that I've been shooting sub-moa groups @ 100 with using PPU 69gr. I have no problem with shooting that rifle, and relatively fast fire since there's no real recoil with a .223. It even has a 3.5 lb trigger, compared to my 1lbers on my bolts.

Something about the 308 is daunting for me, recoil, and loudness is so much louder than the .223. Maybe I should just remove the brake, and shoot unbraked to see if that changes how I "feel".

All my ammo I've shot so far has been 168gr PPU HPBT.... 280 rounds of it and 20 rounds of FGMM. I didn't really understand the factor of ammo and velocity @ 100 yards, or even 200 so I figured if I want to do sub moa groups @ 100, I needed to have match ammo.

@Pappakap , what consistent training ammo do you use?

 

[Greg Langelius *]

If you have to shoot factory 150gr practice ammo, this is a good one. This also gets good reviews, and I have also made good ammunition from PPU 308 brass.

 

[acudaowner]

it could depending on what you are trying to do and how you do it . I keep trying to put 5 shots in one hole @100-300yardsw . I am not that good of a shot to do it , so no ammo is going to make me a better shooter than i am practice will not ammo . Now with that said you can get slightly better groups with better ammo it's small improvements I still believe that better skills help more . have seen others with my guns shoot way tighter groups 4 in one hole at 200 yards with the same crappy cheaper ammo that I use . The only difference is skill and years more practice . That may change when I shoot further out as aerodynamics and physics play more of a role . That's just my opinion and is just what I have seen and how i feel about it .

 

[Greg Langelius *]

With cheaper ammo, you may find that most of the group's good, but there's a flyer. That's directly related to ammo quality/charge weight consistency.

Greg

 

[Gunfighter14e2]

Flat base bullets rule 300 an in, for little hole group shooting

 

[Pappakap]

I haven’t committed yet to a bulk buy yet. The times I’ve gone out since I’ve just been using generic Winchester white box and Remington. Admittedly I am no highly trained sharpshooter so the cheaper the trigger time the more I can practice aspects not directly related the the 5 rounds I can’t put in one hole.?

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Get into handloading/reloading when you can.

It allows your ammo to have a potential for better consistency; and can also keep ammo costs down so long as you can avoid the temptation to dive in deep and go hog wild. When you learn load development, the ammo can be made more custom to match the barrels it's shot from.

I didn't, and went deep and wild. Twenty-some years later, my gear is basic and simple, and my practices are short and to the point. My ammo is not the very best, but it's quite good enough for my shooting skill set.

I have come to prefer the term "adequate" over "perfect".

Now might be a good time for you to learn that distinction.

I make two concessions toward perfection. My press (only one ever) is a Dillon RL500b bought used for $250 with all the gear in the mid-1990's. I also use an automated powder measure, The RCBS Chargemaster Lite.

It's all important to at least understand, but you can still find ways to avoid buying/slaving over much of it without huge disappointment.

When you're at the point, we can discuss that more.

Until then, keep asking yourself just exactly what it is you want to accomplish today. Then do that again, tomorrow. Only buy for tomorrow when the numbers support the wishes.

When problems appeared for me; nine times out of ten the problem was me.

My bulk buys are seldom bulk buys. My biggest ones, 1000rd 9mm 124gr FMJ, and 500rd 6.5 Grendel 100gr FMJBT Wolf Military Classic (which was taking a big chance, that one).

Greg

 

[littlepod]

With cheaper ammo, you may find that most of the group's good, but there's a flyer. That's directly related to ammo quality/charge weight consistency.

Greg

I thought at 100 yards, even with inconsistent charge and weight, the SD isn't enough to really change the grouping. A .1 mil shift on a round due to standard deviation @ 100 yards is only .36inches... so easily shoot constant sub moa with crappy ammo at 100 yards?

 

[littlepod]

If you have to shoot factory 150gr practice ammo, this is a good one. This also gets good reviews, and I have also made good ammunition from PPU 308 brass.

Yeh both those ammos are 85+ cents a round! I bought 400 rounds of PPU 168gr HPBT for about 75c around shipped. I was hoping to drop down to maybe 40c rounds of some sort.

 

[gunsnjeeps]

I have a .308 Match Garand. I shot a lot of milspec ball with it when I started and didn't do to bad with it. A few years ago I bought a 200 pack of Winchester White Box, 10 boxes of 20. Half way through it I started getting crap shots. Misses at 200 yards, maybe a keyhole in the target. This was on a 6 foot CMP target, not a small target. Even at 50 yards is was keyholing. Went back to my handloads and had no problems. Still have 80 of the 200 rounds left, not sure they are better than primed brass.

Most of the time you can get ok results with budget ammo but you will eventually shot to it's limit.

 

[littlepod]

Get into handloading/reloading when you can.

It allows your ammo to have a potential for better consistency; and can also keep ammo costs down so long as you can avoid the temptation to dive in deep and go hog wild. When you learn load development, the ammo can be made more custom to match the barrels it's shot from.

I didn't, and went deep and wild. Twenty-some years later, my gear is basic and simple, and my practices are short and to the point. My ammo is not the very best, but it's quite good enough for my shooting skill set.

I have come to prefer the term "adequate" over "perfect".

Now might be a good time for you to learn that distinction.

I make two concessions toward perfection. My press (only one ever) is a Dillon RL500b bought used for $250 with all the gear in the mid-1990's. I also use an automated powder measure, The RCBS Chargemaster Lite.

It's all important to at least understand, but you can still find ways to avoid buying/slaving over much of it without huge disappointment.

When you're at the point, we can discuss that more.

Until then, keep asking yourself just exactly what it is you want to accomplish today. Then do that again, tomorrow. Only buy for tomorrow when the numbers support the wishes.

When problems appeared for me; nine times out of ten the problem was me.

My bulk buys are seldom bulk buys. My biggest ones, 1000rd 9mm 124gr FMJ, and 500rd 6.5 Grendel 100gr FMJBT Wolf Military Classic (which was taking a big chance, that one).

Greg

I haven't considered handloading as its time I just don't have right now. I would rather spend that time shooting. If I can keep getting FGMM for 85c a round it seems like that's going to be pretty economical, when comparing to handloading which is very similar to that cost? Now handloading will get me much better ammo, but if I my rifle can shoot 1/2 moa using factory ammo I probably won't be hunting to handload.

I think still, at the 100-200 yard range it looks like consistency shouldn't matter? A 100fps difference in velocity at 200 yards looks like only a .8mil difference. I guess once I get to consistently shooting < 2" @ 200 yards, I'll then worry about better ammo?

 

[Greg Langelius *]

FGMM is very competitively priced, and IMHO, is still the Gold Standard. I also believe that handloading may save you a bit of money, but I haven't been able to handload more accurate (generically) ammo than FGMM, and I really don't think I ever will.

Should accuracy at 100yd matter? Accuracy always matters, but it matters more as distances increase; least at 100yd. The important factors here are cost and consistency. As answers go, IMHO; FGMM leads the pack.

Greg

 

[littlepod]

I used to always shoot whatever factory ammo that shot the tightest groups and performed well on game. Most of the time I was slinging core lokt or Hornady.

I now handload for my rifles. I don’t think about it as an economical thing. I think of it as getting to spend more time involved in my shooting sports.

Besides it gives you so much more control and flexibility and versatility with rifle shooting.

Agree. One day when I have time I'd love to tinker with handloading and getting that perfect formula for my rifle. Right now working 50 hrs a week, I try to rush out and shoot an hour at the range before it's dark.

 

[littlepod]

Posted this on my other thread, but went out to try to make sense of PPU vs FGMM @ 200 yards and keep getting enough groups to build out a better picture. Alternated 5 shot groups. Always aimed at dead center and dialed for the groups, until the last group in the middle. Shot 3x5 PPU and 2x5 FGMM. It got dark on my last 2 groups.

Maybe all the variances are the small SD in velocity. If let's just say PPU was +/- 50fps, that's a half mil up & down + variances of me as a beginner shooter. I did nearly shoot a clover almost with FGMM, that'd been pretty cool.

 

[MountainRogue]

My personal theory... shoot what you are going to use when you want it to count...and make every shot count even when practicing. Buy what works best in each firearm. The guys at the range shooting every second, just throwing copper back in the ground aren’t learning as much as they could be and therefore not improving results.

 

[antithesis]

Handloading can save you money? Well I am doing it all wrong. I ended up shooting 3x's as much and spend 2x's as much when I was buying ammo. Then the barrels started to need to be replaced more frequently. Then I thought if I just buy that thing it will make my reloading process better, and it did. Then that other thing came around that could make my process faster., and it did. Then I bought that other thing because someone said it wall cool, and it wasn't. Then...

Rolling your own is a rabbit hole. I do it because I enjoy it. I am still waiting for the the saving money days to come back around.

 

[gunsnjeeps]

Rolling your own is a rabbit hole. I do it because I enjoy it. I am still waiting for the the saving money days to come back around.

Rolling your own at 27 cents to 48 cents a round does save money over a buck a round. Then you go to matches and spend any savings on match fees.

PS:. My first kit and extras plus components was under half the cost of 1000 rounds of match ammo.

 

[littlepod]

I thought handloading a round of 308 comes out to about 50c a round not including the brass. I bought my last FGMM on sale for around 75c a round. But also can sell my brass from FGMM for about 20c a round. So it's pretty close... Handloading does give superior performance, but also factors in time to do it too...

 

[FCS]

Quality ammo matters, longer the distance the more it matters.
Practice does not make perfect, perfect practice makes perfect.

Every time you change propellant / jacket material, takes 3-5 rounds for barrel to settle down. There is a reason service rifle guys try to run a single powder, jacket material. Your test of alternating PPU / FGMM for groups did more to muddy the waters than not.

First 5 rds @ 100

Second 5 rds @ 200

Third 5 rds @ 100

Stock 700, 5R, 20”, 223, isn’t even bedded.
Berger 73 Match BT, virgin brass

Ammo matters if you want to learn, not guess what is happening, IMHO.

 

[theLBC]

one of the main reasons i chose a 7.52x51mm (.308) platform was because i could feed it inexpensive milsurp M80 ball ammo.
unless i am trying to shoot for points on paper, i feel no need to be using match ammo inside 600 yds.

 

[jcam]

match ammo quality mattered for me at 100 yards. I used to shoot whatever best bulk deal domestic 308 that was available until I decided to stick with match ammo only(bulk FGMM was the best deal). My groups improved. Then I started reloading and that helped even more.
I still had to do my part with the fundamentals(which seems to be a constant struggle).

 

[Jayjay1]

Long answer short:

What is your goal?

If you are satisfied with 1" groups or above, almost any ammo with a good rifle and scope, will do this at 100yds.
Well, some may shoot worse, but the majority will do.

If you want to come under .5" groups, there is no way to do so with cheap ammo (veeeery rare exceptions maybe).

That´s the major reason why I´m loading my own stuff.

But shooting steel at 100yds?
Any time, any ammo.

 

[308pirate]

Quality ammo matters, longer the distance the more it matters.
Practice does not make perfect, perfect practice makes perfect.

Every time you change propellant / jacket material, takes 3-5 rounds for barrel to settle down. There is a reason service rifle guys try to run a single powder, jacket material. Your test of alternating PPU / FGMM for groups did more to muddy the waters than not.

First 5 rds @ 100
View attachment 7137432

Second 5 rds @ 200
View attachment 7137433View attachment 7137434

Third 5 rds @ 100
View attachment 7137439

Stock 700, 5R, 20”, 223, isn’t even bedded.
Berger 73 Match BT, virgin brass
View attachment 7137440


Ammo matters if you want to learn, not guess what is happening, IMHO.

The only post worth a damn in this whole thread.

 

[gunsnjeeps]

I thought handloading a round of 308 comes out to about 50c a round not including the brass. I bought my last FGMM on sale for around 75c a round. But also can sell my brass from FGMM for about 20c a round. So it's pretty close... Handloading does give superior performance, but also factors in time to do it too...

I'd have to look, but that's pretty close. I think I'm at 47 cents for .308 150 gn SGK and RL15. I only shoot that at 100 and 200 for Garand matches in a .308 Match Garand, 8's and 9's are on me. 27 cents for 77 SMK and Varget that goes out to 600 for Service Rifle matches. In 98, Blackhill's Match was a buck around and loaded on the same line as MK262.

Most of my loading is done to relax. I'm not taking time off to do it. (Usually.)

 

[E. Bryant]

As others have said, the importance of ammo depends upon your goals. If your goal is to consistently achieve the tightest groups possible (not the complete point of long-range precision shooting, but a pretty damn big component of it), and you're shooting inconsistent ammunition that is not inherently capable of grouping smaller than your accuracy goals, then how can you ever hope to learn anything? At that point, you're just making noise and punching meaningless holes in paper.

There is more to accuracy than just consistent velocity; indeed, it's possible to shoot reasonably consistent groups at 100 yards with relatively large velocity SD, because the travel time to target is so low. Things such as bullet consistency, cartridge run-out, case headspace, seating depth, and a whole host of other parameters can affect the performance of ammunition at short ranges. If this weren't the case, then 100yd benchrest would be an easy game, right?

On that note, this:

On my 22 setup in matching KRG Bravos, same Athlon Ares ETR scopes, same comb and LOP, etc., both my fiance and I shoot 1-1.5" at 100 yards. On the 308, due to all the other factors, she's horrible at it... shooting maybe 3-4" groups @ 100 yards, and I'm okay (.6-1").

At 200, groups really open up for me. (1.5-3").

... does not really suggest an ammo problem so much as it does a setup or shooter problem (could be that your fiance is struggling with her fundamentals with the larger cartridge, or that the T3 doesn't fit her well, or something along those lines). 3" at 200yds is 1.5MOA, which I'd consider to be acceptable accuracy for a factory rifle shooting whatever random non-match ammo is sitting on the shelf at Cabelas on any given day. That sort of accuracy is going to put metal on meat if you're hunting deer out to 500yds or so - it's fine for most practical purposes.

But it's not fine if you're trying to refine your fundamentals for precision rifle shooting. Get good ammo, shoot good ammo, make every shot at the range into a learning opportunity. You've put good money in a rifle and you're making time to train - this isn't the area where you should decide to save a couple of dimes per trigger pull.

 

[hlee]

Federal fusion MSR "grouped" at 100 yards just small enough I could cover it with a paper plate. Hornady match clover-leafed from the same rifle, immediately after that. Yes, ammo matters even at 100 yards.

 

[wade2big]

Depends on what your goal is. Trying to hunt to a few hundred yards, Nah ammo quality doesn't matter. Hell a 3 moa rifle and ammo combination will kill a deer cleanly to 300 yards. Trying to make hits on a full size sillohette? My ak in 7.62x39 will do it at 400 yards plus with the cheapest crap i can buy. If your thing is putting holes close together on paper or stretching it way out there then yes it does.

 

[LastDefender]

I had this same situation happen. I was using my .223 bolt gun. At 200 yards there was a 2" difference between Black Hills .223 69 grain match and PP 69 grain match. The Black Hills was also more consistent and produced tighter groups. I was rather surprised at the difference but it was noticeable. The challenge is price. The BH is twice as expensive as the PP. I guess you do get what you pay for but for me at 200 yards the difference is not worth the additional price. YMMV.

 

[Centuriator]

I had another question after getting feedback @ 100, 200 yards. I'm new to shooting larger caliber rifles, and I have a Tikka T3X CTR .308 20". I am noticing that due to the larger caliber, recoil, noise, psychologically there's things going on that is making me not shoot that well. On my 22 setup in matching KRG Bravos, same Athlon Ares ETR scopes, same comb and LOP, etc., both my fiance and I shoot 1-1.5" at 100 yards. On the 308, due to all the other factors, she's horrible at it... shooting maybe 3-4" groups @ 100 yards, and I'm okay (.6-1").

At 200, groups really open up for me. (1.5-3"). I shoot in an area where there really is no wind, and I mean I lob my 22LR @ 200 yards with only maybe a .1mil shift.

So question is, at 100-200 yards, does 308 ammo quality matter? At that velocity, no wind, cheap ammo with high SD in velocity will really make no difference? I should just practice with 30-40 cent cheap ammo rounds and they should all be able to achieve 1" groups @ 100? That way I can burn through getting my fundamentals, any flinching I do due to the larger caliber down, etc and not be shooting FGMM @ 100.

I'm looking to shoot a lot more to get better and get over whatever issues I have with shooting 308, so whatever the best cost effective way to do that is.

One word: flinch.

If you are not used to shooting larger caliber rifles, you are going to be mentally, then physically, "flinching." It's the body's natural reaction to an explosion going off inches away from your face. You will naturally want to tense up, snatch the trigger, tighten up in anticipation of the noise and recoil. Perfectly natural. But you can train yourself not to let it bother you and focus on your shot.

Before you try to correct it by spending a lot of money on ammo, I'd recommend spending as much time as possible shooting the rifle.

But to your specific question about ammo and accuracy: absolutely it matters.

With my LMT MWS using Federal Gold Medal Match 175gr SMK I am routinely shooting sub-moa groups. When I use lesser quality ammo the groups open up. Using German surplus I get 2" groups, using the least expensive stuff I have, Maylasian surplus, it gives me a nice shotgun pattern at 100 yards (I'm exaggerating).

Yes, ammo matters, even at 100 yards. (By the way a 1.5" group at 200 yards is a sub-MOA group).

BUT...given what you have shared here (and I commend your honesty), at this point, it's not really an ammo problem as much as a fundamentals problem, but a problem that you can, and no doubt, will fix.

Watch Frank's training videos and you will learn a lot of what what is involved in shooting a higher-powered rifle, many factors.

 

[SDBguy95]

For 65 cents a round, magtech makes a 168 grain SMK bthp that shot sub moa out of my Remmington 308 aac sd. Thats a 1:10 twist and I believe the Tikka is 1:11. I wouldnt think that would make to much of a differenc.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Accuracy and precision are excellent techniques for Sniper employment, but battles are won using Maneuver Warfare.

When we lament the lack of pinpoint accuracy in military ball ammunition; we are, in fact, blaming it for doing exactly what it's intended to do.

A certain degree of dispersion is intentional since it increases the area of beaten ground employed during the application of suppressive fire. When we look up the accuracy requirements for military ball ammo, it becomes quickly apparent that the demands are not especially great. Sniper ammunition is different because it serves a different purpose, and accuracy becomes the key criterion.

Ball ammo works en mass, while Sniper ammunition works by the individual shot. Using precise ammunition for massed fire is an immense waste of resources.

When an individual Infantryman manages to eke out consistently excellent (comparatively) marksmanship from the mediocre performance afforded by ball ammunition; a canny officer is usually prepared to recommend that Infantryman for assignment to Scout Sniper training.

The infantryman's buddies will miss him, and think that the unit's capability has been compromised; but actually, it is also the role of the small unit to define and identify those who are capable of fulfilling a more demanding capacity.

Greg

 

[Centuriator]

"A certain degree of dispersion is intentional since it increases the area of beaten ground employed during the application of suppressive fire."

Please explain and elaborate ...

 

[Dthomas3523]

Accuracy and precision are excellent techniques for Sniper employment, but battles are won using Maneuver Warfare.

When we lament the lack of pinpoint accuracy in military ball ammunition; we are, in fact, blaming it for doing exactly what it's intended to do.

A certain degree of dispersion is intentional since it increases the area of beaten ground employed during the application of suppressive fire. When we look up the accuracy requirements for military ball ammo, it becomes quickly apparent that the demands are not especially great. Sniper ammunition is different because it serves a different purpose, and accuracy becomes the key criterion.

Ball ammo works en mass, while Sniper ammunition works by the individual shot. Using precise ammunition for massed fire is an immense waste of resources.

When an individual Infantryman manages to eke out consistently excellent (comparatively) marksmanship from the mediocre performance afforded by ball ammunition; a canny officer is usually prepared to recommend that Infantryman for assignment to Scout Sniper training.

The infantryman's buddies will miss him, and think that the unit's capability has been compromised; but actually, it is also the role of the small unit to define and identify those who are capable of fulfilling a more demanding capacity.

Greg

This is only if you subscribe to the technique of indirect suppressive fire. This is also a more antiquated tactic.

Accurate and direct suppressive fire is arguably a much better and more modern tactic.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Actually, I already expanded the explanation and touched on your question.

Fire and maneuver warfare was developed late in WWII as a means to nullify the immense psychological and tactical advantage of the German MG-42 machine gun. The MG-42 had an immensely high rate of fire. I knew an MG-42 gunner who had served with Rommel in Deutsches Afrikakorps . He said the 42 fired bursts so fast, it actually acted like a huge shotgun, delivering a shot pattern virtually simultaneously. The effect on Allied morale was devastating. Albert Heller essentially worshiped Rommel until his dying day.

Maneuver Warfare may appear antiquated, but in large part, the same threats still exist regarding the ability of a fixed enemy to thwart an advancing force.

The advancing unit is divided into two segments which leapfrog up to the enemy's flank and rear, alternating between applying suppressive fire to the fixed position as the other segment takes advantage and moves to another stage of the advance. As such, the suppressive role generally does not have specific targets to engage; if the tactic works, those targets are hidden, taking cover; and that's precisely where we'd like them to be, unable to engage the advancing segment. By randomizing the POI somewhat, the fixed enemy has no predictable safe area along which to escape.

Infantry marksmanship is based on units engaging units; and accuracy needs to be good enough to endanger the enemy unit, and really not much better. For more accuracy, the DMR or Sniper plays the key role.

Greg

 

[C4N4DIAN]

of course it does !

@100 yards with my SSG 3000 I average

1.4 inch 5 round groups with surplus hirtenberger (Boxer primed)
1.2 inch 5 round groups with surplus hirtenberger (Berdan primed)
0.7 inch 5 round groups with Federal gold medal 168
0.7 inch 5 round groups with Hornady 168gr match.

The hornady and the FGM can shoot sub 0.5 MOA, Im am just not there yet as a shooter.

200 yards is still not very far so the impact of wind is still quite minimal. what will really impact accuracy is your fundamentals. Posture, hold, trigger control.