Does annealing reduce neck tension?

[Wheres-Waldo]

I just finished annealing my entire lot of cases after their 3rd firing.

I tumbled, then annealed, then did my brass prep as if the cases were straight off the range.

Neck tention was still set at .002" but felt like next to no tension at all when seating the bullets. Things will work-harden and give a bit more possative feel during seating over time correct?

 

[Hunt]

Re: Does annealing reduce neck tension?

Neck tension is reduced after annealing and will work harden over time.

 

[Crazy Dog ll]

Re: Does annealing reduce neck tension?

Can you push a bullet into the neck by hand ?

 

[slapshot.308]

Re: Does annealing reduce neck tension?

Neck tension is not reduced. Neck tension is set by your die. After annealing, brass is more springy (not as hard) and will accept the bullet with less complaining. Since the brass can "stretch" easier to accept the projectile, the felt resistance is less.

 

[Crazy Dog ll]

Re: Does annealing reduce neck tension?

Okay, Thanks.

 

[MitchAlsup]

Re: Does annealing reduce neck tension?

The numeric neck tension (say 0.002") does not change, the actual tension holding the bullet in the neck IS changed by a about a factor of 2X (1/2 as much grip on the bullet after annealing growing slowly towards 1.0 grip as the brass work hardens with firing cycles).

 

[Crazy Dog ll]

Re: Does annealing reduce neck tension?

Okay ,that was kinda my thinking, that the annealing put the brass molcules farther apart yet retaing the same diameter but with less tension,right ?

 

[myerfire]

Re: Does annealing reduce neck tension?

I have dropped down .001 to the next bushing on freshly annealed necks and then on the next reload return to my original bushing.
myerfire

 

[Crazy Dog ll]

Re: Does annealing reduce neck tension?

Good, I'll put this in my notebook and Thanks!

 

[Wheres-Waldo]

Re: Does annealing reduce neck tension?

Thanks gents.

I was thinking about this when I was writting the original post.
I know the actual tension of .00whatever" wont change, but the tension between the bullet and case neck wont be as much after annealing. I should have sized them down .001" more on the neck, but Ive already done all the necks at .331"

Im not going to redo them at .330"

If the weather isnt fucked up tomarrow I'll see how these fresh necks effect the groups.

Have a good one fella's.

Waldo.

 

[Fuzzball]

Re: Does annealing reduce neck tension?

"Things will work-harden and give a bit more possative feel during seating over time correct?"

Maybe. Maybe not. Not easy to explain in detail but IF we over heat the necks, to a clearly visible red glow, we usually have gone too far and the the necks will be dead soft, lacking the "springyness" which provides proper bullet tension.

I once did an experiment to see if a dead soft neck would ever work harden to something like original. I just over heated a couple of cases and then ran them in and out of an FL die until the necks split and compaired that to a couple of un-annealed cases. The un-annealed necks split after something like 15 and 20 cycles. The annealed, to red, cases didn't split after something like 200+ cycles, after which I gave up!

That proved, to me anyway, that over heating a case neck does more harm than good. Now I do it in a darkened room and just heat the necks until I first see a VERY slight glow! That seems to retain enough hardness to provide the proper neck tension.

 

[Crazy Dog ll]

Re: Does annealing reduce neck tension?

Very good! I will write this in my reloading book. Thanks.

 

[Wheres-Waldo]

Re: Does annealing reduce neck tension?

How I went about it was with a propane torch.
held the case about 1/2' away from the prominent blue tip about midway in the shoulder untill I first started to see any change in color, then backed up to about 1 to 1.5 inches from the tip untill that blue/silver color overtook about 1/4 inch down the body.

They came out LOOKING awsome, something Ide expect to pull out of a box that said Lapua on it.

I cant find a temp. indicator pen in this town to save my ass, so for funtionality, I'll have to see if the spring come back after firing 1-2 times.

 

[Halfnutz]

Re: Does annealing reduce neck tension?

I was setting up a Lee collet die yesterday, the instructions indicate...

"As delivered from the factory, the collet die will grip the bullet with a light press fit with cases of average hardness. For a tighter fit, you can anneal the case neck or polish the decapper mandrel .001 smaller. Do not go beyond .001 smaller as there will no increase in bullet pull, and a decrease in accuracy as the bullet will then be sizing the neckas it is inserted."- copyright 01-15-2003, Lee Precision Inc.

 

[mikieg]

Re: Does annealing reduce neck tension?

i also use the lee collet die. i have wondered about the annealing. seems like the cases split after maybe 10 cycles. so if a case that has been annealed and will hold a consistant bullet does not split after 200 cycles, then how can this be bad? i noticed folks get wrapped up in reaching for bench rest performance in their field sniper weapons (i am assuming that we are all talking sniping here, this is the hide right?). i figure, if you have a load that gives under a minute of angle consistant performance, i'm happy. my goal is to connect in the chest minute of man out to a grand. i have that. so now i turn my efforts to extending the life of my brass. could you guys share your techniques on annealing? thanks

 

[myerfire]

Re: Does annealing reduce neck tension?

I have the Hornady annealing kit. I have my torch in a jig I made,light the torch, have my cases and a container of water next to the jig, close the door and turn out the lights and wait a minute or two until I can see from the light of the torch and then start annealing. As soon as I detect the neck changing color, I dump it into the water.
myerfire

 

[Wheres-Waldo]

Re: Does annealing reduce neck tension?

While we are on the topic of neck sizing, kinda...

Someone recomended I use graphite as an interior lube for the necks, so I went out and bought some, but its in these little tubes, like locktite would come in.

Anyone have any idea on how I could apply this stuff w/o wasting it?

 

[Fuzzball]

Re: Does annealing reduce neck tension?

"...if a case that has been annealed and will hold a consistant bullet does not split after 200 cycles, then how can this be bad?"

Gman, I think you misunderstood or I didn't fully say what I was wanting to convey. Fact is, those dead soft cases did NOT have any effective neck tension, that was the problem! There was a little of course, bullets wouldn't have fallen out, but the "real" bullet tension was very low. REAL tension is the amount of pull required to pull a seated bullet out. It's NOT a simple diameter number equal to the difference between the bullet and neck inside diameters even tho that's the common way of expressing it; that's convienient languge but it's technically wrong.

When the neck is dead soft, seating a bullet will expand the neck past it's elastic limits so there is virtually no springback. The tension to withdraw that bullet is frequently less than the pressure required to seat it. Such low tension is NOT helpful for good accuracy but it might be improved by seating into the lands. I haven't tried that myself so it's open for anyone to explore and report. ??

Even tho the overly soft necks can survive a LOT of cycles through a sizer that doesn't mean the case itself could safely survive that many reloads. I fear the body would split somewhere along the line!

 

[Wheres-Waldo]

Re: Does annealing reduce neck tension?

Brass around the neck being so soft would probably permit it to flow alot faster...requiring frequent trimming, and eventual paper-thin necks and shoulders.

Might wind up splitting where good brass meets soft brass...
Ide rather speculate it than demonstrate it.

 

[BountyHunter]

Re: Does annealing reduce neck tension?

If you anneal the cases too much, you will often run into the issue of soft necks and no tension due to the softness and loss of springback. In effect you cannot size the necks at all and have them hold the dimension.

If you can see red, normally you have gone too far.

BH

 

[Fuzzball]

Re: Does annealing reduce neck tension?

" graphite as an interior lube for the necks...any idea on how I could apply this stuff w/o wasting it?"

I use a white stuff, mica really, with a MidwayUSA kit with some fiber neck brushes to help apply the powder. You don't have that but you could try using a bore cleaning brush to apply it inside your necks. Put about 1/4" of the graphite in a small container, maybe a small pill bottle. Dip the end of the brush in the lube before pushing the brush into the necks. (You WILL get dirty fingers working with graphite!

)

Otherwise...maybe you could get a neck brush lube kit from Midway and use your graphite in lue of the mica if you wish?

 

[Lumpy Grits]

Re: Does annealing reduce neck tension?

To lube the case necks with DRY graphite take a "shot" glass and fill 3/4 full of bird shot(#8's or 7's), put a fair ammount of the powdered graphite on the shot, put lid on top of s/glass and shake the snot out of it for a bit. That will "coat" the shot with graphite.
Remove lid and "dip" the case neck into the shot a couple of times and you have just lubed both the inside and outside.......
Respectfully,
LG

 

[Wheres-Waldo]

Re: Does annealing reduce neck tension?

Well, the stuff isnt horribly expensive...about 1$ per gram...

I just dont want it all over the place, and would like to get a bit of use out of it to see how i like it.

ETA: This stuff reminds me of axle grease...lol
My room is messy enough as it is.

With my FL die it works great...but I still have to use lube for the body, which is MUCH cleaner. So not really an advantage.

On my neck die, its still way messier than lube, and still rediculous amounts of run-out...I'de rather just use lube and retumble the cases just to save from looking like a grease monkey had a seizure in here.

Graphite would work good for trigger mech's though wouldnt it?

 

[Fuzzball]

Re: Does annealing reduce neck tension?

"On my neck die, its still way messier than lube, and still rediculous amounts of run-out..."

That's exactly why I gave up on conventional neck sizers and went totally to Lee's Collet neck sizers.

The idea of using a SHOT glass and graphite sounds GOOD!

 

[Crazy Dog ll]

Re: Does annealing reduce neck tension?

Okay, I got that down. One other question,did you have the bottom havle of the case in a tray of water ?