Does bullet weight variance .1gn affect accuracy

[jfseaman]

As I understand any variance affects POI but how many 10ths before the load the is no longer on an 'accuracy node' for a rifle+cartridge+powder+bullet+primer combination?

Example: projectile weight nominally 140grns. The lot of projectiles contains a spread of .6 over 400 projectiles. if I made lots of cartridges with the projectiles sorted by .1, would there be any change in accuracy for the lots with projectiles that weigh 139.8 vs. those that weigh 140.3

 

[223ai]

Re: Does bullet weight variance .1gn affect accuracy

I'd quit shooting before I started worrying about bullet weight variance, especially in "tactical" practical rifle matches. I'd also bet that *most* can't shoot the difference. More power to you, however, if you have the time and/or inclination.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: Does bullet weight variance .1gn affect accuracy

I'll say it again. The quality control tolerances on factory match bullets is more than close enough to trust.

If you want to spend your time weighing perfectly good components and obsessing over matters that are far outweighed by human and environmental factors, be my guest.

I'd rather spend my free time out at the range.

 

[armorpl8chikn]

Re: Does bullet weight variance .1gn affect accuracy

I simply cannot believe these questions are being asked on a "tactical" website.
Oh wait, where are my manners.
It absolutely makes a difference. Anything you can control, should be controlled. IT is therefore of benefit to obsess on the minutia, doing so, makes one at least appear highly skilled.

Personally I don't have time to do all that stuff, I am too busy being a match director and shooting.

 

[buffybuster]

Re: Does bullet weight variance .1gn affect accuracy

When you start worrying about 0.3gr variances in bullet weight, then you should be worrying about internal jacket thickness, core concentricity and other things that could impact the rotational balance. This is of course after you have weight and volume sorted your fully match prepped brass, tested and sorted your match primers and burnrate confirmed each sample lot of powder. And don't forget to borescope and airguage your barrel between sessions.

I will do all these things, when I die and time is irrelevant.

 

[George63]

Re: Does bullet weight variance .1gn affect accuracy

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Fred Seaman</div><div class="ubbcode-body">As I understand any variance affects POI but how many 10ths before the load the is no longer on an 'accuracy node' for a rifle+cartridge+powder+bullet+primer combination?

Example: projectile weight nominally 140grns. The lot of projectiles contains a spread of .6 over 400 projectiles. if I made lots of cartridges with the projectiles sorted by .1, would there be any change in accuracy for the lots with projectiles that weigh 139.8 vs. those that weigh 140.3 </div></div>

other question would be: are you zeroing your scale after weighing each bullet so there is no drift?

if not the .1 gr is not real anyway

from the hornady engineer who is a CMP shooter: for 600 yd competition - .30 cal projectiles + - .5 gr; for .223 projectiles + - .3 gr

so if your extreme spread is .6 gr that is considered good enough

from the same guy: base to ogive measurement - .005 or less variation

projectile OAL: .01 or less variation

loaded cartridge runout: .002 or less

it all sounded logical to me: keep some control of the variables without getting too anal

 

[Deadshot2]

Re: Does bullet weight variance .1gn affect accuracy

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Fred Seaman</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> The lot of projectiles contains a spread of .6 over 400 projectiles.</div></div>

Strange. I've not seen that kind of variation in the bullets I've been buying. Boxes of 1k Nosler Custom Competition 168 gr and Boxes of 250 168 gr A-Max. At the worst I see a +/- of .1 gr and most of that I believe is in the "round off" feature of my digital scale. The real variation is probably more like .06 gr.

There will be more effect on POI from speed variations in your load than from bullet weight. Who knows, maybe sometimes the tolerances will complement each other. Heavier bullets will match up wiht charges that give a little more "oomph" thus cancelling the effect of each.

When all is done, worrying about the miniscule variations in bullet weight for practical shooting is a lot like picking fly crap out of ground pepper. Either way, you won't notice any harm or benefit.

 

[jfseaman]

Re: Does bullet weight variance .1gn affect accuracy

1 great reply, thank you so much, this is exactly what I was looking for.
1 good reply, thank you so much, added to the other response I believe I have the complete picture.

Thank you both

4 Trolls, par for the course.
JPipes, Greg Langelius, armorpl8chikn, buffybuster

Warning: Don't spar with me. I may not have as much experience reloading and shooting but I sure as shooting have more experience showing that 'The Emperor has no clothes' on internet forums. Y'all don't know anything about me but I'll offer a simile for you: Don't be an a-hole in Texas because everyone is packin. Residents of the Soviet Socialist Republic of California won't understand.

All of your troll postings were perfect at not providing any useful information. Classic couch shooter response. I suggest you review the forum rules on attacking new members and save 'competitve' behaviors for the competition range.

Try the following:
http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2733993#Post2733993

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"Do not feed the trolls" and "DNFTT" redirect here. For the Wikipedia essay, see Wikipediaeny recognition.
The "trollface", first appearing in 2008,[1] is occasionally used to indicate trolling in Internet culture.[2][not in citation given] Modern usage of the word itself dates from 1980s.

In Internet slang, a troll is someone who posts inflammatory,[3] extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community, such as a forum, chat room, or blog, with the primary intent of provoking readers into an emotional response[4] or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.[5] The noun troll may refer to the provocative message itself, as in: "That was an excellent troll you posted."

 

[RobertB]

Re: Does bullet weight variance .1gn affect accuracy

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Fred Seaman</div><div class="ubbcode-body">1 great reply, thank you so much, this is exactly what I was looking for.
1 good reply, thank you so much, added to the other response I believe I have the complete picture.

Thank you both

4 Trolls, par for the course.
JPipes, Greg Langelius, armorpl8chikn, buffybuster

Warning: Don't spar with me. I may not have as much experience reloading and shooting but I sure as shooting have more experience showing that 'The Emperor has no clothes' on internet forums. Y'all don't know anything about me but I'll offer a simile for you: Don't be an a-hole in Texas because everyone is packin. Residents of the Soviet Socialist Republic of California won't understand.

All of your troll postings were perfect at not providing any useful information. Classic couch shooter response. I suggest you review the forum rules on attacking new members and save 'competitve' behaviors for the competition range.

Try the following:
http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2733993#Post2733993

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"Do not feed the trolls" and "DNFTT" redirect here. For the Wikipedia essay, see Wikipediaeny recognition.
The "trollface", first appearing in 2008,[1] is occasionally used to indicate trolling in Internet culture.[2][not in citation given] Modern usage of the word itself dates from 1980s.

In Internet slang, a troll is someone who posts inflammatory,[3] extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community, such as a forum, chat room, or blog, with the primary intent of provoking readers into an emotional response[4] or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.[5] The noun troll may refer to the provocative message itself, as in: "That was an excellent troll you posted." </div></div> Hell Yeah Dude, I've been wondering wtf troll was. I hate all this shit about bashing simple questions. I think if you have the gear and ability to put out amazing results on targets why not have perfect ammo to do it. I shoot factory ammo in some guns and have great response but in my bench guns and ELR rifle I try to do my part to make everything perfect. Good luck

 

[jbailey]

Re: Does bullet weight variance .1gn affect accuracy

One thing you can do is look at the change in sectional density (SD) due to this weight change and from that, calculate the change in BC. You can then run the different BCs thru a ballistics program and see the downrange impact of the differences. This way you can judge if the difference in weights is material to your accuracy and distance needs.

For example,
a 140gr bullet that is perfectly 140.0grs has a SD of .287 lb/in^2. One that is 0.6grs lighter (your ES), its SD is 0.286. BC = SD/i, where i = form factor of the bullet in question. Say you where using the Berger 140gr VLD (I would be shocked if the Bergers had that big a spread, but this is just an example). Its i = 0.918 (on the G7 BC model) per Litz's Applied Ballistics. So 0.286/.918 = adjusted BC of .312, vs the 140.0gr's BC of 0.313.

The difference in inches of drop for a .312 vs .313 G7 BC bullet is:

-0.1" at 500yds
-0.5" at 1000yds
-2.5" at 1500yds
-8.1" at 2000yds

Hope this helps. It is an interesting math exercise if nothing more - I wish I could shot a 0.5" difference at 1000yds!

 

[High Binder]

Re: Does bullet weight variance .1gn affect accuracy

From a physics point of view, yes a .1gr variation will affect accuracy but the real question is just how much it will affect accuracy. I haven't been able to see a difference in the bullets I've tried that varied by .8gr and that was the extreme upper and lower spread. So that being said it certainly will have an effect on your accuracy but in my experience it was too negligible to quantify so I subsequently stopped sorting bullets. I'm sure there are extreme outliers in every lot of bullets but I can live with the occasional flyer and I bet that flyer isn't going to be any worse that my best personal accuracy so it wouldn't be noticed as having been a potential outlier anyway.

 

[armorpl8chikn]

Re: Does bullet weight variance .1gn affect accuracy

Very entertaining, Greg L is a troll...that is indeed news to me.

The fact that these people did not support your prearranged opinion makes them trolls. Typical, I see this all the time from new posters.

I am not a couch shooter. I am a match director at CVRPC. I shoot every month from March through October, at minimum. Veteran of many shooting disciplines including 1000yd BR, IHMSA, NRA Silhouette, etc. I have over 30 years of handloading experience to back up whatever opinion I may have. I did not aquire the bulk of my knowledge from the internet. I do not simply regurgitate what I read somewhere else like some other internet commandos.

Do whatever the hell you like. If you don't want honest answers don't post questions. If you only want opinions that support your position then state that up front early. Don't chide and label everyone as a troll who doesn't sumarily pat your ass dry for you after you take a piss. I reccomend a liberal dose of Vagisil before posting anything like this again. Better yet, you might want to leave your moo-moo a bit raw in the hopes that it will toughen up a bit.

 

[Rob01]

Re: Does bullet weight variance .1gn affect accuracy

Fred those answers are far from Trolls. I agree with all of them. I don't weigh anything and with some cartridges shoot factory ammo in competitions. You will see more variation in your shooting than in the way any match bullet being off a few tenths will show on paper or steel.

Also if you keep up with this shit:

"Warning: Don't spar with me. I may not have as much experience reloading and shooting but I sure as shooting have more experience showing that 'The Emperor has no clothes' on internet forums. Y'all don't know anything about me but I'll offer a simile for you: Don't be an a-hole in Texas because everyone is packin. Residents of the Soviet Socialist Republic of California won't understand."

You won't be around here long. Threatening members isn't allowed.

You admit you might not have the experience in reloading so some advice is to listen to those that do.

 

[JWV]

Re: Does bullet weight variance .1gn affect accuracy

When I was new to reloading I once weighed every single component and put some ammo together. The cartridges were very nice but didn't shoot any better than the that the previous load. First find a load your rifle loves. Work on the fundamentals. Many rifles and shooters can not shoot better than FGGM match ammo. Some 1k Fclass champs don't even sort by bullet weight. I would sort by bearing surface before bullet weight as well.

 

[turbo54]

Re: Does bullet weight variance .1gn affect accuracy

Mr Semen,

The answer is "yes". Altering anything affects accuracy.

[Troll] It is doubtful anyone could shoot the difference [/Troll]

 

[buffybuster]

Re: Does bullet weight variance .1gn affect accuracy

"Mr" Fred Seaman,

As the uncontrollable variables (background static) is greater than the effect 0.1gr variance in bullet weight. You ask for our opinion about something with no chance of an empirical answer.

You then call those responses that do not agree with your existing paradigm, as "trolls".

You're right; I don't know you, but that cuts both ways and I will heed your admonishment to not be an "a-hole in Texas" as I can see they're already full up.

Sincerely,

Your troll

 

[George63]

Re: Does bullet weight variance .1gn affect accuracy

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rob01</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This has been going on too much lately. Someone asks a question that some feel isn't worth it and the feeding frenzy commences. Well it stops now. This is the first and final warning. We see it and you will get a 3 day ban the first time. Happens again and you are gone for 3 months.

You guys who spend more time in the Bear Pit or Maggie's Drawers posting stupid pictures than shooting or posting on shooting got it? It's done.


If there are problems then that is what Mod alerts are for. Asking a question that someone feels is stupid isn't a problem. Asking a question that has been asked before isn't either. Anyone new or old member causing problems deliberately should be brought up to the mods. Too long has this place run like the wild west. The Mods are here for a reason. If there is a problem then alert us.

Read the forum rules if you are unclear as to what is right and wrong to be posted around here. Lowlight is the man who wrote them and it's his word that will be followed and not what some members think. </div></div>

so what happened to this?

was it just last months fad rule?


The OP asked a well put together logical question - posted in the correct forum and the first 4 responses were basically "you are not worthy of a real answer"

naturally the new to the forum OP had a negative(all be it over the top ) response

is this not the reason for the rule - to avoid the negative escalation?

does not mean much/have much effect if it is not enforced

 

[George63]

Re: Does bullet weight variance .1gn affect accuracy

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: buffybuster</div><div class="ubbcode-body">"Mr" Fred Seaman,

As the uncontrollable variables (background static) is greater than the effect 0.1gr variance in bullet weight. You ask for our opinion about something with no chance of an empirical answer.

You then call those responses that do not agree with your existing paradigm, as "trolls".

You're right; I don't know you, but that cuts both ways and I will heed your admonishment to not be an "a-hole in Texas" as I can see they're already full up.

Sincerely,

Your troll </div></div>

example: your first response is only sarcasm

then you come back and give a fairly legitimate answer as an avenue of mockery

could there be any other strategy to this other than to piss off the OP?

 

[malaga2]

Re: Does bullet weight variance .1gn affect accuracy

Nailed it

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JPipes</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'd quit shooting before I started worrying about bullet weight variance, especially in "tactical" practical rifle matches. I'd also bet that *most* can't shoot the difference. More power to you, however, if you have the time and/or inclination. </div></div>

 

[oldfatguy]

Re: Does bullet weight variance .1gn affect accuracy

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Malaga2</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Nailed it

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JPipes</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'd quit shooting before I started worrying about bullet weight variance, especially in "tactical" practical rifle matches. I'd also bet that *most* can't shoot the difference. More power to you, however, if you have the time and/or inclination. </div></div> </div></div>

I certainly can't shoot the difference either but I still weight sort because I have the time and a bit of OCD. Big example of precise weight not making much difference down range are the 50 grn Triple 7 pellets for muzzle loaders. Weighed a few once and the difference was OMG huge. Shoots 1 MOA anyway.

OFG

 

[Topstrap]

Re: Does bullet weight variance .1gn affect accuracy

This thread sure has it's up and downs but I think the answers given were correct but received in a manner that wasn't expected. I've never had a gun accurate enough to notice a difference in a couple tenths of a grain difference in bullet weight. In theory like others have said yes it probably will have some affect but I really doubt 99.999999999999999999999999999999999999% of shooters and their equipment could ever tell the difference.

What purpose the question was being asked for wasn't given other than maybe asking if that miniscule difference in bullet weight would make a difference with thousands of other factors wanting to pour sour milk into the mix and cause any data to be lost that would matter.

So to be added to the troll list even though it's not what the OP was wanting to hear. After you do your experimenting and making everything perfect I do think you'll find a large percentage of the things some of us do to make all round equal and perfect really won't amount to a hill of beans after Mother Nature and human factors are added in.

If you are after the nth degree of accuracy for LR BR matches and have the absolute best equipment then this might be something to pursue but for the types of matches most on here shoot and the size of the targets we shoot at it really isn't a big factor.

Good luck

Topstrap

 

[gunsnjeeps]

Re: Does bullet weight variance .1gn affect accuracy

1) No, it won't make a difference unless you're shooting in a vacuum from a rest. .1 grain of powder at 1K will do more than .1 grain of bullet.
2) You got the same answer from answer from each of your "trolls".
3) I'm going to guess your .6 gn variance is hypothetical. Sierra seconds don't even vary that much.
4) I think there are 2 or 3 other threads running right now with the same question.

 

[buffybuster]

Re: Does bullet weight variance .1gn affect accuracy

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: George63</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
example: your first response is only sarcasm

then you come back and give a fairly legitimate answer as an avenue of mockery

could there be any other strategy to this other than to piss off the OP? </div></div>

If I came off sarcastic, that was unintended. What I was trying to convene is the assumption that all parameters are so controlled a 0.1gr variance in bullet weight will have a measurable and repeatable effect on precision is essentially invalid. There are too many uncontrolled variables that have at least as great, if not greater effect on the precision equation than 0.1gr variance in bullet weight. If it was taken wrong, that was not my intent.

 

[Rob01]

Re: Does bullet weight variance .1gn affect accuracy

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: George63</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rob01</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This has been going on too much lately. Someone asks a question that some feel isn't worth it and the feeding frenzy commences. Well it stops now. This is the first and final warning. We see it and you will get a 3 day ban the first time. Happens again and you are gone for 3 months.

You guys who spend more time in the Bear Pit or Maggie's Drawers posting stupid pictures than shooting or posting on shooting got it? It's done.


If there are problems then that is what Mod alerts are for. Asking a question that someone feels is stupid isn't a problem. Asking a question that has been asked before isn't either. Anyone new or old member causing problems deliberately should be brought up to the mods. Too long has this place run like the wild west. The Mods are here for a reason. If there is a problem then alert us.

Read the forum rules if you are unclear as to what is right and wrong to be posted around here. Lowlight is the man who wrote them and it's his word that will be followed and not what some members think. </div></div>

so what happened to this?

was it just last months fad rule?


The OP asked a well put together logical question - posted in the correct forum and the first 4 responses were basically "you are not worthy of a real answer"

naturally the new to the forum OP had a negative(all be it over the top ) response

is this not the reason for the rule - to avoid the negative escalation?

does not mean much/have much effect if it is not enforced</div></div>

That is still in effect. Those answers were not over the top or negative. They basically told him it's not worth the worry. They didn't break it down into mathematical equations and say please and thank you but they were good answers. They weren't what the OP wanted so he called them trolls and added veiled threats. I stepped in and added my two cents. I am not banning the people in this thread for answering a question without putting sugar on top to make the OP smile. Sorry that doesn't make you happy.

That rule was written for blatant attacks, which were occurring with all to common regularity. There weren't any here. Just blunt answers to a question that gets answered here weekly on weighing bullets, cases etc.

That rule wasn't put there to let any new person come in and act any way they want either. It was for people coming in and starting trouble in basic posts by newer members and also for treatment of all members. If a new guy comes in and acts like an asshole well he will get treated in turn. The rule isn't a get out of jail free card for new people to do anything they want.

 

[gunman_7]

Re: Does bullet weight variance .1gn affect accuracy

I can't believe someone called Greg a troll...LMAO!

 

[armorpl8chikn]

Re: Does bullet weight variance .1gn affect accuracy

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: gunman_7</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I can't believe someone called Greg a troll...LMAO! </div></div>

Yeah, I laughed pretty hard at that accusation myself.

 

[milo 2.0]

Re: Does bullet weight variance .1gn affect accuracy

Fred my man, you seem to be having a shaky 1st year here.

If you have the time to weigh bullets, brass, measure bullets and brass you will have no time to shoot.

But you will be quite adept at painting ceramic squirrels in some fucking nuthouse when you age, and that counts alot on this forum.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: Does bullet weight variance .1gn affect accuracy

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> 4 Trolls, par for the course.
JPipes, Greg Langelius, armorpl8chikn, buffybuster

Warning: Don't spar with me. I may not have as much experience reloading and shooting but I sure as shooting have more experience showing that 'The Emperor has no clothes' on internet forums. Y'all don't know anything about me but I'll offer a simile for you: Don't be an a-hole in Texas because everyone is packin. Residents of the Soviet Socialist Republic of California won't understand.

All of your troll postings were perfect at not providing any useful information. Classic couch shooter response. I suggest you review the forum rules on attacking new members and save 'competitve' behaviors for the competition range.
</div></div>

Muahahahahahah!

Oh, you have me quivering in fear beneath my trestle.

Gauntlets, no less. Time for the beer and popcorn. Just the thing to warm up a brisk autumn day.

I predict a long and interesting tenure for you here at The 'Hide.

More to the point; I am an NRA certified Rifle and Handgun Instructor, a charter member of this site and its predecessor, A multiply published writer in <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-style: italic">Precision Shooting</span></span>, and the initial organizer of the Marine Corps League Competitive Shooting Program in NJ (perhaps you've heard of the Carlos Hathcock Match?). There's more, but it gets boring...

You, Sir, are behaving in the manner of an annoyingly presumptuous ass....

...and sorry, Rob, I belatedly read your response and cleaned it up, I hope by enough to remain within the spirit of the rules.

Greg

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: Does bullet weight variance .1gn affect accuracy

To reply directly; no, the differences in bullet weights you cite are not adequate to create any accuracy detriments that would be quantifiable in any real world setting.

As a question of theoretical physics, yes, any difference must result in a predictable variance. The problem is that this variance is of an order of significance that is rather less significant then other unavoidable and irremediable factors.

In reality, it would be nearly impossible to inarguably demonstrate that variance.

I have spent several decades questioning and researching the verity of the practical wisdoms associated with handloading and accuracy. My own viewpoint has started and remained very similar to your own. I want to see it all for myself.

My preceding responses, all of them, reflect this passage.

There's a lot of stuff that folks like us do that is of, IMHO, dubious value.

Here's what I have found to be of worthwhile effort.

If you're going to weigh components, weigh the individual powder charges. Cases, primers, and bullets (from reputable makers) are all subject to quality control tolerances which are tight enough to make checking redundant.

Verify powder charges with some test loads each time a new lot of powder is encountered.

Find some way to ensure that die setup can be retained consistently from loading batch to loading batch.

Approach the mechanical sequence of handloading operations so that they remain as consistent as possible, round to round, batch to batch. This simple assurance can provide more accuracy then many of the more esoteric handloading tweaks combined.

Neck tension is important.

I have my own way of managing it that doesn't require specialized tools, but it's questionable and needs some explaining that I can't really get into here; and besides, I've already posted it all here many times.

All I'll emphasize is that it changes after each firing because of brass work hardening; and that any method one chooses has to take that single fact into account along with the other factors.

In essence, do the basics, do them with care and consistency, and recognize that going futher surpasses the limits of diminishing returns almost immediately.

Questions like yours rather completely miss this last, simplest point.

Having to repeat this same response three times in under a week can also tend to result in terse response. Rather than getting querulous, take the time to use the search engine, and read before you post.

And the next time you try throwing your weight around, I will personally report your post, and I hope the mods stomp you flatter'n Hell.

Greg

 

[9H_Cracka]

Re: Does bullet weight variance .1gn affect accuracy

1000 yard Bench resters sort bullets checking a half dozen different measurements.

Top long range/Palma sling coat and iron shooters, with our somewhat generous 1 MOA X ring and 2 MOA 10 ring, will do their primary sort on OD of the bearing surface using a go-nogo die. Undersized OD will have more effect on velocity, therefore vertical dispersion, than any other (moderate) dimensional or weight variance.

 

[Jedi]

Re: Does bullet weight variance .1gn affect accuracy

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Fred Seaman</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Warning: Don't spar with me. </div></div>
Why whatca gonna do, turn on your caps lock

Regardless of variance, and there are many to consider when reloading

If you are incapable of shooting difference then any gain is mute

Hell
weigh your primers if your so inclined, your time use it as you see fit

Utilizing OCW/OBT method can greatly reduces net effect of the numerous variances between components of reloading
Done correctly you can all but negate effect
Only thing i weigh is powder charge, my rig will shoot sub MOA all day long if i do my part.
The theme amongst replies seem consistent
a: Any variance in components may affect accuracy

b: If you are incapable of shooting difference, your wasting your time and effort

Oh heres an extra tip
Weighing brass is futile as the weight has little to do with case capacity, which has a direct impact on load pressure.
So unless you know where the difference in weight between cases is located it may or may not affect case cap.
Should you desire to correct issue feel free to ck wet cap on every case, at some point your gonna realize the effort does not warrant return.

Where is Nobody when ya need him

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: Does bullet weight variance .1gn affect accuracy

Fair enough; and there are some 1000yd benchrest shooters here. They do the bullet weighing, measuring, sorting, and many other things, too.

They are not the norm, though...

 

[armorpl8chikn]

Re: Does bullet weight variance .1gn affect accuracy

Funny you should mention 1000yd BR shooters taking extra pains in reloading. One of the reasons I quit BR shooting, and am likely to never return, is the feeling that it is more of a science project than actual shooting. Spending more time at a loading bench than actually shooting is not how I want to enjoy the shooting sports.

A BR shooter,any shooter for that matter, will likely get better results using a Jeunke machine, than a scale. It will tell him more about his bullet than some shitty digital scale.

 

[Unknown]

Re: Does bullet weight variance .1gn affect accuracy

I guess I gotta echo what Langelius posted.

I tried weighing all the bullets to .1 of a grain, and weighed cases to .1 of a grain. Then I matched up the heavy bullets with light cases, and light bullets with heavy cases. I was told that doing so would even things out.

I match prepped all the cases, yet failed to find any change (note that I didn't say any SIGNIFICANT change) in accuracy by doing so.

Although I believe that by eliminating as many variables as possible (such as weight differences, length to ogive etc) there should be an increase in accuracy, I don't think that with the type of shooting I do that such an increase is noticeable.

I shoot tactical precision rifle matches, practical rifle matches, and precision rifle 600 yard matches. With that type of shooting, the requirements for rapid shooting, not having the most stable positions, and all the other variables that I cannot reasonably control make it extremely difficult for me to notice any improvement in accuracy by doing all the extraordinary ammo preparation.

I think that a 1000 yard bench rest shooter does the type of shooting that eliminates more variables than I can, and they might be able to notice the difference. I think a much greater increase in accuracy will be found by elimnating as many humanly effected variables for my type of shooting than by doing the extraordinary ammo prep.

If I had a kid with OCD who loved to reload ammo, and was a precision freak, it might be really handy to educate them about all the minutae of reloading. Then the kid could work his butt off making my ammo, and I could shoot up some really primo ammo.

But because it is just me rolling my own, I do match prep, trickle each charge, check rounds for runout, and use the lowest runout rounds for more demanding matches, and the ammo with excessive runout for practice.

That is the long way to say, that in theory, doing all that extra work should make a difference. In practice, with the type of shooting most of the people on this board do, the probability of noticing any significant improvement is so low as to make all that extra effort mostly futile.

However, if someone has extra time, and inclination to do all that work, the good news is that by going to all that extra effort, you won't make your ammo any worse.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: Does bullet weight variance .1gn affect accuracy

I shot 1000yd F-Open (.260 Rem Savage custom) Class for a couple of years, along with several other forum members, at Bodines in PA. This is not to be confused with 1000yd BR, although it does get nicknamed "Belly BR".

I learned a lot, and much of it was about what was not as necessary to accuracy as I had originally thought.

My eventual match prep consisted of flash hole reaming, and my only special handloading technique was to weigh individual charges.

While I was competitive, my skills, especially those related to winds, never really got perfected well enough that I could ever convince myself whether my ammo was holding me back.

Basically, if you make relatively sound and consistent ammo to a spec that is properly tuned to the barrel; you will find a lot more improvement in honing one's marksmanship technique before one gets back down to a point where more refined ammo production technique is going to positively impact your scores.

Both of my Elder Brothers had been chuck hunters and BR shooters back in the 1960's and 1970, and it was their techniques that informed my early handloading regimen. Others helped me as well, for about a decade, before I began offering handloading advice on the Internet.

Greg

 

[Bill Larson]

Re: Does bullet weight variance .1gn affect accuracy

most who compete at long range..800-1400yds.weigh powder and bullets to the .02gr. or better.....
bill larson

 

[rusty815]

Re: Does bullet weight variance .1gn affect accuracy

I am just going to mirror what everyone said about weight sorting not being worth it, it really isn't. When I first started reloading, I did an experiment with a box of 50 200gr. Barnes bullets, I weight sorted them to within .1gr of 200gr. which came out to be around 20 out of the 50, I loaded these up with weight sorted Federal Brass, then I loaded the rest of the Barnes bullets with Federal brass that I didn't weight sort. There wasn't a difference in my groups, if there was, I couldn't shoot the difference. Now the only "special" prep step that I take is weighing every charge, and even that is, a lot of the time, unnecessary, but I do it anyway because it makes me feel better.

A word of advice Fred, if you come here and ask a question, be prepared to get many varied responses. If you come here and ask a question and hope that everyone's opinion will mirror yours, and then blast everyone that opposes you, you are not going to last very long.

 

[jfseaman]

Re: Does bullet weight variance .1gn affect accuracy

Thank you all for participating in a lively discussion. For me it had a great deal of value.

First, I apologize if YOU interpenetrated anything I wrote as a threat. I never threaten in the real world or internet, to me a threat is a violent act and the only violence I prosecute is against paper or steel. It was prefaced as a warning and that is all it was. The warning was that someone other than me was going to wind up sticking their foot in their own mouth (figuratively). That is what "The Emperor has no Clothes" means.

However, the results were that those that initially provided a response with no useful information later provided very useful information.

So...

To me the warning was a prediction that came true. Oh well. Sorry but not my fault.

Of course...

A simple "No" from Gary L. would have been the end of the discussion with one response but thankfully that is not what happened. I had no preconceived idea of what would come of the discussion so the concept that I retaliated when I didn't get what I wanted is just plain silly. It was an innocent question from an inexperienced but enthusiastic shooter and reloader.

Valuable explanations of the math and physics was wonderful to share. Practical explanations and examples are just as valuable.

Dear Gary L,
There was no slight to your reputation as a firearms authority intended in any of this. Couldn't have been as I had no idea of your resume. JFYI, I have more experience with computes and the internet than you have shooting, reloading and writing.

For those that suggest I shoot more and worry less. Thank you, I agree wholeheartedly, with one exception, I wasn't and am not 'worried' about much of anything, I was only wondering if there was a simple answer to a simple question that would help reduce a variable. So that leaves shoot more.

I like that idea a great deal however, my home range is occasionally closed and it gets dark at the end of every day so that is when I reload, order more supplies and do maintenance and tuning. I shoot a local 'Tactical Match' every week, world willing, I even win sometimes, a 'race' match once a month, moving up in the standings and enjoying it. I'm not ready for beyond 300yds yet as while close I don't have the load locked down yet. I've got my Service Rifle but I don't think I have my act together for High Power yet as too much work on the Saturdays of our local match at the moment. So I'm just plinking the IPSC steel at 380yrds off hand open sights for fun when I feel like it.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: Does bullet weight variance .1gn affect accuracy

A) My name is Greg
B) From my profile:
Occupation: Retired Systems Analyst and Documenter.

FYI, this occupation spanned from 1968 to 1998. After 1998, I moved out of the NYC Metro to rural Central NY, branched out and basically had fun learning trades with as much diversity as could be managed. By 2004, my health dictated a semi-early (58 y/o) retirement.

In the spirit of whatever the heck it is that we do here; I'm pretty sure noone here had any malice in mind when they responded. I don't respond well to warnings, have no intentions of changing that, and apparently that's a shared response here at The 'Hide.

What I will do in the future is to be even more selective about what questions I decide to answer. I have a tendency to take point on some subjects. Maybe, after a decade and some, I should fade back a bit and leave the ones which arrive with far to much frequency to others. Better for them, and better for me.

You have a great day.

<span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="color: #3333FF"><span style="font-style: italic"><span style="font-size: 17pt">Greg</span></span></span></span>

 

[jfseaman]

Re: Does bullet weight variance .1gn affect accuracy

Hi Greg,

Sorry, it was 3am my time and I had worked and drove 350 miles to boot.

Sorry about your health deteriorating, I wouldn't wish that on anyone. That said, it seems you can still enjoy shooting and the related interests so all is not lost.

I didn't ask the question to pick an adversarial position, I asked it out of innocence. I responded to snide, condescending remarks that provided no information. Based in your responses, history here, history as an employee and history as a writer, that is exactly what you would have done. Basically now that I know, you got a bad review from a reader. Sorry, not my fault. I was innocent of knowledge prior to your comments.

As to being selective in what questions you answer, OK. Makes sense to me.

If this thread hadn't started so badly, it seems to me that we might have "shared a beer" (figure of speech) and laughed about the lunacy of various aspects of the computer industry and the world in general. Perhaps that is still possible.

Not to be competitive (well some but again I didn't start it), I believe I still have you beat on the computer crap. Second generation, doing something with computers starting in 1966. yes at 8 years old. I was a creator. I took SA specs and made things. I was a director of development, programmer, SA and other things. Software I made sold $1,000,000,000 worth of goods in 12 months, that was the wholesale price, need to add the mark up to know the retail total

. One of the companies broke Compaq's all time first year sales record, which still stands AFAIK. I still make things just not computer stuff, well, I still can but don't unless I have to. Started my first internet company in 1990. I've participated in starting multiple companies, founding engineer of a couple.

All the best

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Greg Langelius *</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A) My name is Greg
B) From my profile:
Occupation: Retired Systems Analyst and Documenter.

FYI, this occupation spanned from 1968 to 1998. After 1998, I moved out of the NYC Metro to rural Central NY, branched out and basically had fun learning trades with as much diversity as could be managed. By 2004, my health dictated a semi-early (58 y/o) retirement.

In the spirit of whatever the heck it is that we do here; I'm pretty sure noone here had any malice in mind when they responded. I don't respond well to warnings, have no intentions of changing that, and apparently that's a shared response here at The 'Hide.

What I will do in the future is to be even more selective about what questions I decide to answer. I have a tendency to take point on some subjects. Maybe, after a decade and some, I should fade back a bit and leave the ones which arrive with far to much frequency to others. Better for them, and better for me.

You have a great day.

<span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="color: #3333FF"><span style="font-style: italic"><span style="font-size: 17pt">Greg</span></span></span></span> </div></div>

 

[BCP]

Re: Does bullet weight variance .1gn affect accuracy

How the hell did I miss this awesome thread?

Don't be an asshole in Texas lol...that tells me all I needed to know.

 

[jfseaman]

Re: Does bullet weight variance .1gn affect accuracy

Greg!

My favorite book other than Tolkein is "Friday"


"The whole principle is wrong. It's like demanding that grown men live on skim milk because the baby can't have steak." - Robert A. Heinlein

Pretty sure, more in common than not.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: Does bullet weight variance .1gn affect accuracy

You have me beat.

8 in '66. Kewl. I was 3MarDiv in '66.

Greg

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: Does bullet weight variance .1gn affect accuracy

Heinlein. Yep; Top of the list, along with the ABC's (Asimov <span style="font-style: italic">Foundation</span>, Bradbury <span style="font-style: italic">Illustrated Man</span>, Clarke <span style="font-style: italic">Childhood's End</span>). Bradbury, maybe not so much; but <span style="font-style: italic">Something Wicked...</span> very, very good.

These days, Niven, Bear. I didn't like Bear, Benford's, etc. appendage to <span style="font-style: italic">Foundation</span>; thought it off the topic and aimless/pointless.

Steven King, riveting, but ultimate creepy. Dat boy musta had him one truly strange childhood.

 

[discojon75]

I'm not a competitive long range precision shooter, but I've been trying to get a good load with my Rem 700XCR .270WSM shooting 150gr accubonds. I was doing workup loads with factory 2ds and getting really poor accuracy. I tried a couple different powders and tightened my 2.5"+ groups down to 1.75". Then I weighed each round, keeping only everything within 0.2 and tightened everything up by another half inch at 100 yards.. I'm not sure I'll get more accurate than 1.25" with a hunting rifle like this. I will say in 150 sorted rounds of factory 1sts, I discovered 21 bullets that had deformed tips, major dents, split jackets at the tip, or some combination of the two. These damaged bullets I culled.