Range Report Drit vs. Drop. Where do you guys draw the line?

[*Nine]

I'm working on a .284 Win build for match shooting, and I'm having a hard time deciding where to focus my load development efforts. I have a bunch of 180 SMKs and a bunch of 162 AMAX. I expect that they'll both shoot consistently enough to be workable, but I'm trying to pick one to give to my smith as a dummy round for throating based on a few assumptions. I expect that the 162s will turn in a muzzle velocity somewhere around 130fps higher than the 180s. This is where I'm having trouble making a choice.

Around here at matches wind is a factor, and we also deal with some UKD targets. Most of the targets I shoot at in matches are inside 800, though each match usually has at least a few targets out to a max of about 1300. The 180 SMKs show a very small wind advantage over the AMAX inside 800 yards (like less than a 1" advantage,) though at the far end of what I actually see in matches (1300) the SMKs should give me a few inches less wind drift. That said, the AMAX are considerably flatter shooting, even at only 800 yards they're showing almost 12" less drop than the SMK. Out at 1300 the AMAX are showing nearly 36" less drop. My normal inclination is to take whichever cartridge has less drift, but for the occasional UKD targets the flatter shooting AMAX is appealing, and at the ranges most targets are I'm not sure the extra half inch of drift would really hurt me.

At what point do you guys pick a cartridge with a hair more drift and substantially less drop, or would I be wise to stick with the cartridge that drifts less and just accept the extra drop?

 

[BobinNC]

Re: Drit vs. Drop. Where do you guys draw the line?

Take more drop over more drift. Drop is compensated by just a few more clicks of the dial, wind drift is much harder to get right, and less drift is better.

If you get my drift......

 

[*Nine]

Re: Drit vs. Drop. Where do you guys draw the line?

I do, and that's the way I'm leaning. I usually take less drift without thinking twice but in this case with the drift difference being small and the drop difference being a bit larger I kind of hesitated.

 

[JC Steel]

Re: Drit vs. Drop. Where do you guys draw the line?

go with the 162, all day long!!! that is a really good bullet!

 

[MitchAlsup]

Re: Drit vs. Drop. Where do you guys draw the line?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BobinNC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Take more drop over more drift. Drop is compensated by just a few more clicks of the dial, wind drift is much harder to get right, and less drift is better.</div></div>

I agree, drop is just a number dialed into the scope after ranging. Drift is the difficult one.

 

[notquiteright]

Re: Drit vs. Drop. Where do you guys draw the line?

Theories and techniques for fighting the dreaded drift abound. Some go for the hottest load they dare shoot, brass life and barrel life be damned. Some the highest BC even if velocity suffers.

Some want to reduce the skill required to be a good to bordering on great LR shooter to one of mechanical advantage. It's in our DNA, man is currently top dog because he made tools to rise above the more powerful animals.

There is however a more base answer, because we think and can skillfully use the tools we create. Develop a skill set beyond dailing a knob and setting the rifle up steady.

So chase the fox the way you like. I take no pride in dailing a knob, but do smile as I hear the others on the line, with their magic bullets, cuss a little as they didn't read the mirage well enough to select the proper hold for the shift-

and I did with my 300 yard bullet with it's modest powder charge.

But then again I aint quite right.

 

[kentactic]

Re: Drit vs. Drop. Where do you guys draw the line?

i say the AMAX is the way to go. 36'' of drop is the difference between on and off the target 1'' of wind probably isnt. the more drop the more room for missing the target. especially if the targets at an unknown distance.

 

[tigerhawk]

Re: Drit vs. Drop. Where do you guys draw the line?

Why drift when you can drop?

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: Drit vs. Drop. Where do you guys draw the line?

The bullet is primarily effected by: gravity, drag, temp, and wind. Of these, wind has the greatest effect on the bullet. Generally, the higher the bullet's B.C. the less it is effected by wind. But, the high B.C. bullet is not a substitute for wind reading skill, just an aid to a better result. For most folks, the heavy rifle, high magnification scope, and laser like cartridge only serve to deceive the shooter into believing marksmanship is not an issue. This thwarts marksmanship development as these shooters, sometimes hitting where aimed in ideal conditions, actually begin to think they know something about good shooting. Judging by what the OP said, he might do well to scratch his plans for a .284 and go with a .308 with irons and sling.

 

[azimutha]

Re: Drit vs. Drop. Where do you guys draw the line?

It may not matter much with these two particular bullets but increasing bullet weight means recoil will go up...maybe enough to bother your aim a bit.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: Drit vs. Drop. Where do you guys draw the line?

My concerns about drop, drift, and velocity are somewhat pragmatic. Regardless of velocity; gravity will always be the same, and wind will never be.

You can either go for streaking velocity to reduce whatever consequences those variables induce, or you can back off and concede the need to do the inevitible skullwork that always comes due regardless of velocities.

If the skullwork is effective, the velocity is inconsequential (at least in for far as the projectile remains above transsonic at the target).

I don't spec a barrel for any arbitrary velocity goal beyond the supersonic arrival requirement.

Velocity, for me, is a product of concerns that favor bore life and barrel harmonic-related accuracy. It is not a barrel design issue, but rather, a load development issue. Period.

I don't choose bullets for their aerodynamic numbers. I choose them based on shooter feedback concerning their consistent accuracy.

I was once convinced by the comment "Hornady's are very good bullets, except there's always at least one flyer in a boxful". I eventually found that comment to be grossly untrue, and now use them with confidence.

BC is only a meaningful number as long as it is accurate and consistent in the real world. I can always crank in sight adjustment, but there is no sight adjustment that makes up for bullet inconsistency.

Greg

 

[blue_ridge]

Re: Drit vs. Drop. Where do you guys draw the line?

Less wind drift over less drop makes obvious sense at known distance targets, but the OP mentioned some UKD targets. Does this logic apply equally as well to unknown distances?

Another way to look at it, when shooting at a 1000 yard target, which is more likely? - to misjudge wind by about 5mph? - or to misjudge distance by 50 yards?

Is it easier to misjudge a 15mph crosswind as 10mph? or 1000yds misjudged to 950yds? both mistakes produce sizeable misses left/right, up/down respectively for most any conventional rifle load.

 

[sobrbiker883]

Re: Drit vs. Drop. Where do you guys draw the line?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: blue_ridge</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Less wind drift over less drop makes obvious sense at known distance targets, but the OP mentioned some UKD targets. Does this logic apply equally as well to unknown distances?

Another way to look at it, when shooting at a 1000 yard target, which is more likely, to misjudge wind by about 5mph, or to misjudge distance by 50 yards? Is it easier to misjudge a 15mph crosswind as 10mph? or 1000yds misjudged to 950yds? both produce sizeable misses left/right, up/down respectively for most any conventional rifle load.

</div></div>

1000 yard misjudged as 950 will be an impact .6mil low with my 6XC (21-22 inches). Calling a 15mph FV wind as 10mph puts me off ~.9mil (32 inches).
I guess it depends if your target is tall and skinny or short and fat....

I think better wind performance is more desirable than less drop. I have the capacity to KNOW range much better than the capacity to KNOW what the wind will do at any given moment.

 

[Graham]

Re: Drit vs. Drop. Where do you guys draw the line?

If you know your range you can dial the elevation that you need. Performance in the wind is what makes a system forgiving of errors by the shooter.

If you are building a .284, build a long action. If you have a long action .284 there's no reason not to shoot the highest BC bullet you can get. Throat it for 180 VLD's.

Mine has a .139 freebore.

 

[Guest]

Re: Drit vs. Drop. Where do you guys draw the line?

I find the rivers of wind I can't see, are always higher than the ones I can. Therefore, I'll take drop over wind. If my lead would fly in areas I could read start to Finish I'd probably take wind. I've shot places where a 175 SMK from a 308win. needed 8 IPHY to get on a moa target at a grand. Switch to the 300wm an 190 SMK's an it needed "0", nothing at all, right back to the 308 and it still needed 8, only diff was where the bullets were flying. What Foliage there was showed no indication of where the river was, but the 45" of elevation diff at max flight elevation showed up quickly. Granted the 190's contact time was much less, but having to add nothing at all, says something as well.

 

[Graham]

Re: Drit vs. Drop. Where do you guys draw the line?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gunfighter14e2</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I find the rivers of wind I can't see, are always higher than the ones I can. Therefore, I'll take drop over wind.</div></div>Except that if you're thinking about drift you just chose wind over drop.

 

[mouse07410]

Re: Drit vs. Drop. Where do you guys draw the line?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: blue_ridge</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Less wind drift over less drop makes obvious sense at known distance targets, but the OP mentioned some UKD targets. Does this logic apply equally as well to unknown distances?

Another way to look at it, when shooting at a 1000 yard target, which is more likely? - to misjudge wind by about 5mph? - or to misjudge distance by 50 yards?</div></div>
I'd say - today with all the technology etc. it's a lot easier to get the accurate distance (practice, laser rangefinders, GPS coordinates - you name it) than to get the accurate wind reading (especially since wind tend to change quicker than the distance).

 

[raptor99]

Re: Drit vs. Drop. Where do you guys draw the line?

It would depend on your barrel length. I built a 284 on a 27" barrel. (It was suppose to be 28"s) I did all the figuring and the AMAX came out on top because I could not push the 180s fast enough to gain any advantage over the 162AMAX.

My 284 is a hammer and my load is very consistant. I have shot several 5 shot groups at 1000yds and my vertical spread on all my groups has been 3"s or less. One group was 4.5"Wx2.5"H the worst one was 6.5"Wx2.25"H The other one was 5 something with a 3" vertical spread. Most all my shooting is 3 shot groups at paper plates out to 1000yds and its always under .5MOA unless I screw up. The 168 Berger is a great bullet also but nearly twice as much. $40 to $25 for the AMAX.

 

[264win]

Re: Drit vs. Drop. Where do you guys draw the line?

I would try the hornady 162 bt hp before the a max . which i will be doing soon i hope in my new 284

I found the bt hp to be a more consistent @ distance the a max.
for match shooting i suspect you will be better off with the 162 if you can get it to shoot as well.

Looking forward to getting our rifles out for a little testing .

 

[*Nine]

Re: Drit vs. Drop. Where do you guys draw the line?

Thanks guys. I am going with the 162s for now based on numerous sources saying it's a better fit for the .284 than the heavier bullets. I'll also pick up a box of the new 162 BTHPs and give them a try.