Dry fire: How much reticle movement?

[Little_Fish]

This will be my third season shooting PRS and I really want to improve my fundamentals. I bought the DFAT kit and have really started using it seriously this past week. For a lot of the time, no matter how stable my position, and how small my wobble zone is, the movement of the firing pin will move the reticle. Sometimes it’s more than others, I assume due to an imperfect position or improper NPA. I would say that it certainly feels like the movement of the firing pin, and not my trigger press itself, since when my trigger press is bad I can see it reflected in the reticle movement. I would say that the reticle moves in 2/3 of my presses, but when it does it rarely moves outside a 1 MOA target. In all but the worst of cases I can keep the reticle within a 1 MOA dot.

My biggest question is wanting to know if the ultimate goal during dry fire is to have ZERO reticle movement, or is it more a matter of minimizing the movement to a specific size (1 MOA or less for example). If the objective is to have as little movement as possible, I assume the solution is to work on building more stable positions annd also working more on my NPA right? Is there anything else I should be working on?

 

[Rio Precision Gunworks]

Current comp rifles do most of the work for you.

Take a good fundamental class and then work on applying those fundamentals to your positions. It’s hard to put it in typed form without writing a novel.

Here’s a video of what your reticle should look like on target at 100yds. The orange is 1”.

 

[NateVA]

Current comp rifles do most of the work for you.

Take a good fundamental class and then work on applying those fundamentals to your positions. It’s hard to put it in typed form without writing a novel.

Here’s a video of what your reticle should look like on target at 100yds. The orange is 1”.

It's a longshot but do you know of any good fundamentals classes on the east coast? I live in NC and it's tough to know the well known fundamentals-heavy classes will require large travel expenses on top of the class fee.

 

[Jgore]

Chris Simmons puts on classes. He’s up in Marion, NC.

 

[Jarhead94]

It's a longshot but do you know of any good fundamentals classes on the east coast? I live in NC and it's tough to know the well known fundamentals-heavy classes will require large travel expenses on top of the class fee.

Andy Slade at Rifleman's Path. Not sure where he does his training, but I'm sure it's around or close to pigg river precision in VA, shouldn't be that bad for travel. Awesome shooter and trainer. I'm sure he does prs specific training.

 

[Jarhead94]

Chris Simmons puts on classes. He’s up in Marion, NC.

Chris is awesome as well.

 

[Trevor300wsm]

What does your reticle do when you fire? Up? Down? Is it consistent?

 

[Little_Fish]

What does your reticle do when you fire? Up? Down? Is it consistent?

When it does move it’s almost always to the right. I’m a right handed shooter. I’m pretty confident when being aware of it tonight the movement is coming from my trigger press.

 

[Trevor300wsm]

When it does move it’s almost always to the right. I’m a right handed shooter. I’m pretty confident when being aware of it tonight the movement is coming from my trigger press.

It could be your trigger pull, but depending on how you are gripping the rifle, it’s most likely your firing hand, rather than your finger. Your hand is most likely imparting some type of lateral force (be it small) on the right rear of the stock (think pushing the butt left, thus causing the barrel and reticle to move right). If you are pulling the rifle into your shoulder while firing, make sure you are pulling straight back with just your finger tips. Just to test this theory, apply a little extra pressure with your cheek weld, exaggerating a right lateral force with your cheek to see if it cancels out the movement, or if your reticle in turn moves to the left now.

 

[Kfive73]

I had a similar issue. Reticle moved up and left (I’m a lefty). I figured out that if I had too much pressure against my magazine from the front bag, the reticle would move like this. I started backing off the bag (just a little bit) and it stopped jumping

 

[Little_Fish]

It could be your trigger pull, but depending on how you are gripping the rifle, it’s most likely your firing hand, rather than your finger. Your hand is most likely imparting some type of lateral force (be it small) on the right rear of the stock (think pushing the butt left, thus causing the barrel and reticle to move right). If you are pulling the rifle into your shoulder while firing, make sure you are pulling straight back with just your finger tips. Just to test this theory, apply a little extra pressure with your cheek weld, exaggerating a right lateral force with your cheek to see if it cancels out the movement, or if your reticle in turn moves to the left now.

Dang this definitely sounds like that could be what I’m doing. I’ll give that a try tonight when I go downstairs to dry fire. Thank you.

I had a similar issue. Reticle moved up and left (I’m a lefty). I figured out that if I had too much pressure against my magazine from the front bag, the reticle would move like this. I started backing off the bag (just a little bit) and it stopped jumping

Also very good to know. Thank you I’ll play with that too.

 

[roostercogburn98]

It's a longshot but do you know of any good fundamentals classes on the east coast? I live in NC and it's tough to know the well known fundamentals-heavy classes will require large travel expenses on top of the class fee.

The Range Complex in Autryville, Frontline Defense, there are a few in Raleigh as well just can’t remember the names off top of my head.

Coleman’s Creek probably does some classes

I’m not sure if anyone at Woodys teaches classes.

The Clinton House in SC might have some classes.

 

[DownhillFromHere]

It's far harder than one would think to "pull the rifle straight back" into the shoulder. Even with a good bipod and rear bag, with the reticle seemingly welded onto desired POA, recoil will magnify any "out of line" force applied by the hand on the grip or cheek on the stock, and the reticle jumps.

There was a period of time I thought my scope was actually failing. I was gripping that rifle so hard, trying TOO hard to hold that gun rock steady through trigger break and follow-through, that even the little impulse of dry-firing caused a noticeable reticle hop. If I dry-fired "free recoil" with the rifle well supported by bipod and bag - no hop.

I'm not sure there is a way to teach someone how to grip a rifle, weld the cheek, and control recoil to achieve that last bit of ability to keep the reticle absolutely centered through trigger break and recoil. At some point any shooting skill becomes a mental/reflex thing. Skeet is the ultimate demonstrator of this. The targets are TOTALLY predictable, affected only by wind. Yet I've literally watched adolescent boys run 100s after a couple of seasons of shooting while grown men take lessons and shoot 100-200 targets a week for years and never run the hundred.

Bottom line, though, is that reticle hops off target as a result of how the rifle is gripped and the cheek is welded to the stock.

 

[JAS-SH]

This will be my third season shooting PRS and I really want to improve my fundamentals. I bought the DFAT kit and have really started using it seriously this past week. For a lot of the time, no matter how stable my position, and how small my wobble zone is, the movement of the firing pin will move the reticle. Sometimes it’s more than others, I assume due to an imperfect position or improper NPA. I would say that it certainly feels like the movement of the firing pin, and not my trigger press itself, since when my trigger press is bad I can see it reflected in the reticle movement. I would say that the reticle moves in 2/3 of my presses, but when it does it rarely moves outside a 1 MOA target. In all but the worst of cases I can keep the reticle within a 1 MOA dot.

My biggest question is wanting to know if the ultimate goal during dry fire is to have ZERO reticle movement, or is it more a matter of minimizing the movement to a specific size (1 MOA or less for example). If the objective is to have as little movement as possible, I assume the solution is to work on building more stable positions annd also working more on my NPA right? Is there anything else I should be working on?

I see this a lot in my shooting. It's not the rifle, its your firing hand position and pressure on the rifle stock. I always check this before starting to shoot. And repeat it often while shooting.

Do this on an empty chamber. Line everything up like you normally do. Then, just before you completely press the trigger, slowly release your firing hand grip on the rifle completely. Do this a number of times. If the POA changes, you have your answer. You were aiming at a point where the bullet has no chance of going under recoil and your grip is masking the error. This might look different from the "firing pin drop" motion you see, but it is the root cause. The reticle looks on target but it wont be when you press the trigger and under recoil.

What you are seeing is the result of your trigger press with a less than ideal grip - it moves the rifle in relation to your trigger finger when you press the trigger. That's what I correct for....

This is true even down to small errors on target, less than 1/4 inch at a 100. It gets worse at distance. Nothing should move when you press the trigger.

Being an analyst by profession I look into everything. So, some time ago I looked at the geometry. Why? Because shooting is not about inches, it's about angles. Errors in inches on target are a result of angle errors at the rifle end. So, I used geometry to figure the following.

I went to a quick right angle calculator on the web and ran the numbers. At 100 yards, an aiming error of .005 (5 thousands of a degree) degrees will change the point of impact .314 inches high (vertical angle # in this example) at 100 yards (a = .31416)! Here's the website and the stuff I entered - I entered 3600 for the distance so we get inches to inches. 100 yards is 3600 inches.

 

[moaorbust]

Get prone with the rifle and turn the scope magnification to max then target something far out and practice slowly. Change one thing at a time to isolate possible issues or improvements. With scope magnification at max all mistakes are also magnified and easy to spot. Keep practicing until there is no reticle movement. Then assume a less stable position and keep practicing. Ad nauseam. The old penny on the barrel tip is a good start too.

As an example found that the mere angle of my hand had a larger impact than I expected.

 

[Little_Fish]

It's far harder than one would think to "pull the rifle straight back" into the shoulder. Even with a good bipod and rear bag, with the reticle seemingly welded onto desired POA, recoil will magnify any "out of line" force applied by the hand on the grip or cheek on the stock, and the reticle jumps.

There was a period of time I thought my scope was actually failing. I was gripping that rifle so hard, trying TOO hard to hold that gun rock steady through trigger break and follow-through, that even the little impulse of dry-firing caused a noticeable reticle hop. If I dry-fired "free recoil" with the rifle well supported by bipod and bag - no hop.

I'm not sure there is a way to teach someone how to grip a rifle, weld the cheek, and control recoil to achieve that last bit of ability to keep the reticle absolutely centered through trigger break and recoil. At some point any shooting skill becomes a mental/reflex thing. Skeet is the ultimate demonstrator of this. The targets are TOTALLY predictable, affected only by wind. Yet I've literally watched adolescent boys run 100s after a couple of seasons of shooting while grown men take lessons and shoot 100-200 targets a week for years and never run the hundred.

Bottom line, though, is that reticle hops off target as a result of how the rifle is gripped and the cheek is welded to the stock.

Thank you. This was a huge help. I’ve been working through this the last couple of nights and it has made a big change. The best way to describe it is that I am simply letting my firing hand exist. I’m not using it for anything and it’s doing as little as possible. Not pushing, pulling, or steering the rifle. When I do that best, the reticle doesn’t move at all throughout and after the firing pin falling.

I see this a lot in my shooting. It's not the rifle, it’s your firing hand position and pressure on the rifle stock. I always check this before starting to shoot. And repeat it often while shooting.

Do this on an empty chamber. Line everything up like you normally do. Then, just before you completely press the trigger, slowly release your firing hand grip on the rifle completely. Do this a number of times. If the POA changes, you have your answer. You were aiming at a point where the bullet has no chance of going under recoil and your grip is masking the error. This might look different from the "firing pin drop" motion you see, but it is the root cause. The reticle looks on target but it wont be when you press the trigger and under recoil.

What you are seeing is the result of your trigger press with a less than ideal grip - it moves the rifle in relation to your trigger finger when you press the trigger. That's what I correct for....

This is true even down to small errors on target, less than 1/4 inch at a 100. It gets worse at distance. Nothing should move when you press the trigger.

Being an analyst by profession I look into everything. So, some time ago I looked at the geometry. Why? Because shooting is not about inches, it's about angles. Errors in inches on target are a result of angle errors at the rifle end. So, I used geometry to figure the following.

I went to a quick right angle calculator on the web and ran the numbers. At 100 yards, an aiming error of .005 (5 thousands of a degree) degrees will change the point of impact .314 inches high (vertical angle # in this example) at 100 yards (a = .31416)! Here's the website and the stuff I entered - I entered 3600 for the distance so we get inches to inches. 100 yards is 3600 inches.

View attachment 8350823

This was awesome. I love this thinking, thank you. Reducing the amount of input from my firing hand has most certainly made a difference.

 

[whatsupdoc]

I was playing with a seb mini-x rest and a benchrest rear bag, the rifle was in a mdt chassis with the mdt bag rider not
in a benchrest stock.

Dry firing the rifle In the rest with zero body contact other than the trigger I did notice some movement in the reticle while dry firing.
This surprised me so I started trying different pressures and holds and front rest adjustments to see if I could eliminate the movement.

I found that if I pounded the stock down into the rear bag every time before I pulled the trigger there would be no reticle movement during firing and that the front rest did not have any affect on the rifle.

 

[TimK]

You might also try dry firing on a fired case. I have a R700 where the bolt jiggles just a bit without an empty case. Drove me nuts till I figured it out.

 

[Emerson0311]

The firing hand exists only to squeeze the trigger straight back by pinching with your finger and palm. Fix your feet. Continue rotating your stance (feet, even when sitting behind a bench) to the left until the reticle bounces left on the shot. Then adjust back to centered. With the butt closer to your collarbone than shoulder and your weight stacked vertically above all your body’s points of articulation, the recoil should move straight back.