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Dry fire??
- Thread starter Ewalk02
- Start date
It’s been covered on here a bit, but the outcome is always “go for it.”
If you’re running a modern day centerfire, you’re good. Snap caps are great and not a requirement for dry-firing in terms of protection/peace of mind. Where snap caps are vital for training is getting used to the bolt feedback as you load a round vs running it empty (aka building bad habits). Also helps you train (forced) reloads, top-loading, and malfunction drills. Essentially if you aren’t using snap caps, you’re doing yourself a disservice.
Even if you damage a firing pin, the cost of a replacement, which should already be in your system’s spare parts kit, isn’t expensive. The benefit of dry firing outweighs any associated risks... unless you’re dry firing without applying the fundamentals with each shot. Then you’re just solidifying bad habits that will hurt you as a shooter.
If you’re running a modern day centerfire, you’re good. Snap caps are great and not a requirement for dry-firing in terms of protection/peace of mind. Where snap caps are vital for training is getting used to the bolt feedback as you load a round vs running it empty (aka building bad habits). Also helps you train (forced) reloads, top-loading, and malfunction drills. Essentially if you aren’t using snap caps, you’re doing yourself a disservice.
Even if you damage a firing pin, the cost of a replacement, which should already be in your system’s spare parts kit, isn’t expensive. The benefit of dry firing outweighs any associated risks... unless you’re dry firing without applying the fundamentals with each shot. Then you’re just solidifying bad habits that will hurt you as a shooter.
I bet these are the same guys that say an moa is 1” at 100yds. Call correction in inches. And zero their rifles 2” high at 100yds.
Well, just my half-knowledge, rimfire guns can be damaged, because fired without a case in it, would make the hardened firing pin hit the hardened chamber rim, instead of the brass rim of the case.
Result: The firing pin might break.
Just what I´ve heard.
In modern centerfire guns, dry firing shouldn´t be an issue, when on the other hand a snap cap surely won´t hurt.
The firing pin doesn´t hit the receiver full power I guess.
But like said,
just my 2 cents.
Result: The firing pin might break.
Just what I´ve heard.
In modern centerfire guns, dry firing shouldn´t be an issue, when on the other hand a snap cap surely won´t hurt.
The firing pin doesn´t hit the receiver full power I guess.
But like said,
just my 2 cents.
I doubt my father knows if his scope is MOA or MILS, he just knows that it hits the target at 100 yds. Back home it doesn't really matter, hunting in dense trees doesn't allow for shots greater that 100 yds. I'm not going to get down on him though, he taught me hunters safety and was just trying to keep a kid from screwing up his new $200 rifle.
If it's any consolation...I have unrestricted access to a few ranges, aka corn fields with water ways that allow function while the crops are up so getting range time isn't a problem. Have put many, many rounds down range and have burned out a barrel here and there over the years from all the shooting I have done due to this ease of access.
Yet I can guarantee that I have dry fired more than I have put actual rounds down range, mostly without any snap caps other than my rimfire. That said, snap caps don't seem to be an expensive commodity so to each their own, grab some up and all is good. The old man's intentions are in the right place.
Yet I can guarantee that I have dry fired more than I have put actual rounds down range, mostly without any snap caps other than my rimfire. That said, snap caps don't seem to be an expensive commodity so to each their own, grab some up and all is good. The old man's intentions are in the right place.
Thanks, I think I'll get some snap caps just to keep peace of mind. Might not be necessary but it's cheap insurance I guess.
Waste of money and you are just going to need to put it back in every time. Dry fire away.
I have even seen manuals that were wrong, FWIW. Prohibitions against stuff in the manual are by the lawyers, and very often are just boilerplate, taken from older manuals, from older manuals, from... you get it. So, seen things like safety lever usage, dry fire, that were clearly wrong and contradicted by contacting CS or talking to engineers directly.
Dry fire fear is largely a result of old wives tales, passed on and on. Cap and ball revolvers would destroy the hammer on an uncapped nipple pretty shortly. More recently, essentially all rimfires used the same firing pin design, which included not having any significant overtravel stop. Dry firing many rimfires doesn't cause damage to the firing pin so much as damage to the chamber. The firing pin is small, sharp, and very hard. The breechface is very, very close to the firing pin (to act as an anvil for the rimfiring), so gets hit pretty hard if the firing pin is allowed to go that far. Usually not catastrophic damage (file it out, etc... seen it myself) but damage anyway. Usually you can just check for this, by seeing what the firing pin does when forward. If it comes out more than... well, the thickness of a .22 rim, it should not be dry fired even occasionally.
I have heard the explanation that dry firing allows the firing pin to crystalize or whatever, so it breaks, but have never seen any metallurgist, mech-e or firearms engineer who said that was generally an issue. Centerfire guns already smack the firing pin into the firing pin tunnel to prevent overtravel and piercing the primer. There is so much variation in primers, I have been told that there's no consideration that the primer is a buffer for the firing pin in design analysis, so it will last as long shooting as dry firing. If pursued further, you'll get told how much more violent actually shooting cartridges is, so no dry firing remotely modern centerfires won't hurt them.
Snap cap makers have to find a market though
I use plain dummies (solid plastic) for handling and safety; you know the gun isn't full of live ammo if it's full of bright orange plastic.
Dry fire fear is largely a result of old wives tales, passed on and on. Cap and ball revolvers would destroy the hammer on an uncapped nipple pretty shortly. More recently, essentially all rimfires used the same firing pin design, which included not having any significant overtravel stop. Dry firing many rimfires doesn't cause damage to the firing pin so much as damage to the chamber. The firing pin is small, sharp, and very hard. The breechface is very, very close to the firing pin (to act as an anvil for the rimfiring), so gets hit pretty hard if the firing pin is allowed to go that far. Usually not catastrophic damage (file it out, etc... seen it myself) but damage anyway. Usually you can just check for this, by seeing what the firing pin does when forward. If it comes out more than... well, the thickness of a .22 rim, it should not be dry fired even occasionally.
I have heard the explanation that dry firing allows the firing pin to crystalize or whatever, so it breaks, but have never seen any metallurgist, mech-e or firearms engineer who said that was generally an issue. Centerfire guns already smack the firing pin into the firing pin tunnel to prevent overtravel and piercing the primer. There is so much variation in primers, I have been told that there's no consideration that the primer is a buffer for the firing pin in design analysis, so it will last as long shooting as dry firing. If pursued further, you'll get told how much more violent actually shooting cartridges is, so no dry firing remotely modern centerfires won't hurt them.
Snap cap makers have to find a market though
I use plain dummies (solid plastic) for handling and safety; you know the gun isn't full of live ammo if it's full of bright orange plastic.
lol what? Snap caps are not a waste of money. You’re dry firing in order to simulate engaging with your weapon system right? So why wouldn’t you want to do it right? Fuck the “snap caps for firing pin peace of mind” stuff, because that isn’t the real value of using them. As I mentioned above, there are multiple reasons why you should incorporate their use into your training sessions.
Snap caps are an excellent training tool and everyone should be training with them. Oh wait, that’s right, the value added is offset by having to pick your body up off of the ground/bending over to pick them up after running dry lol.
Even if you’re at the range doing live fire, you should have one or two in your bag in order to do self-assessments.
The day when bolts stop going home on empty chambers or someone doesn’t fumble with a reload, or a double feed, is the day I stop advocating for the use of snap caps in training. Shit even then I doubt I’d stop.
Yay, training scars and the cycle of toxic advice continues.
(Note: “snap caps” is being used as a generic term for dummy/training rounds and not the brand itself. The snap cap brand is definitely overpriced but there are plenty of various brands out there that are just as good.)
Nice rant. If you want to simulate, try loading your own dummy rounds with punched primers and a real bullet seated to length. Cheaper than snap caps and you can leave the headspace tight to stiffen the bolt closure.
Snap caps are a waste of money.
Thanks, I try.
Snap Caps, as in the brand, are overpriced. No argument there and I agree with you. However snap caps, as in training/dummy rounds (which is what I intended in my responses above), can be found dirt cheap or be made, like you stated above. However most aren't setup to load or assemble their own dummy rounds so that's a barrier to entry for many, which isn't a good thing. So the readily available and inexpensive pre-made training/dummy rounds are a must have for any shooter looking to add measurable value to their training.
If shooters aren't training with dummy rounds (there, I fixed it for the audience), they are doing themselves a disservice and anyone who says they don't need to train with them are setting themselves (and others) up for failure.
Does that response spark joy?
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Go read some of the past leupold manuals on moa, see how correct it is.
i dry fire and haven’t had any problems. I don’t do it nearly enough.
BTW, sighting in a rifle a couple inches at 100 yards is perfectly acceptable if the shooter can put the bullet where it needs to be. Don’t listen to crap like this from the know it alls here that think deer hunting means shooting one at 1000 yards with their 20lb rifle with 6oz trigger from the prone position with bags.
BTW, sighting in a rifle a couple inches at 100 yards is perfectly acceptable if the shooter can put the bullet where it needs to be. Don’t listen to crap like this from the know it alls here that think deer hunting means shooting one at 1000 yards with their 20lb rifle with 6oz trigger from the prone position with bags.
6oz triggers were so last fall. 3oz triggers are where it’s at.
Ole boy seems to not realize some of us have been hunting as long or longer than he has.
As usual, bad info.
As usual, bad info.
Not even close! I hunt from a huge blind with my bright blue PRS gun while sipping coffee and only bothering to look at the feeder 70yds away when my IG feed gets boring.
While that may be true of old rifles, as a rule it is false. See #7.
probably only dry fire rimfire rifles that tells you you can do it in the manual ? sounds like a plan.
very few guns can't tolerate limited dry fire for function checks. this should be obvious.
most modern guns are not necessarily designed to be dry fired, but are designed so dry fire is not a problem.
on the other hand, some people dry fire a lot for practice, particularly pistols.
it is a fact that some guns can be damaged by hundreds or thousands of dry fires.
in these cases, the gun is designed to have the cartridge stop the forward travel of the firing pin.
without this backstop, the firing pin retaining/positioning pin may be damaged over time with lots of dry fire,.
these roll pins are meant only to retain the pin in the channel, and not designed to stop the firing pin's forward motion thousands of times.
this is well documented with some CZ and Sig Sauer handguns.
obviously a solid retaining pin may solve this problem, and many handguns don't have this issue.
BUT if you are not sure or want to play it safe, snap caps are cheap insurance and have other uses for training (like diagnosing a flinch).
since i rely on my guns to keep my family safe, i don't feel a few bucks is too much.
most modern guns are not necessarily designed to be dry fired, but are designed so dry fire is not a problem.
on the other hand, some people dry fire a lot for practice, particularly pistols.
it is a fact that some guns can be damaged by hundreds or thousands of dry fires.
in these cases, the gun is designed to have the cartridge stop the forward travel of the firing pin.
without this backstop, the firing pin retaining/positioning pin may be damaged over time with lots of dry fire,.
these roll pins are meant only to retain the pin in the channel, and not designed to stop the firing pin's forward motion thousands of times.
this is well documented with some CZ and Sig Sauer handguns.
obviously a solid retaining pin may solve this problem, and many handguns don't have this issue.
BUT if you are not sure or want to play it safe, snap caps are cheap insurance and have other uses for training (like diagnosing a flinch).
since i rely on my guns to keep my family safe, i don't feel a few bucks is too much.
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oh, and it is correct that rimfire dry fire can be bad, especially with older rifles that used relatively soft steel for the barrels.
these can actually get pitted or dented by the pin and eventually it may start failing to pinch the round enough to fire.
these days at least some gun makers are smart enough to design their rimfires with a captured pin that will not reach the barrel face.
so your Ruger 10/22 is perfectly safe to dry fire.
these can actually get pitted or dented by the pin and eventually it may start failing to pinch the round enough to fire.
these days at least some gun makers are smart enough to design their rimfires with a captured pin that will not reach the barrel face.
so your Ruger 10/22 is perfectly safe to dry fire.
I thought I had been told the damageable SIGs were mistakenly built with one roll pin instead of the pin-in-pin arrangement. Do tell if you know better so I get the details for future.
Which CZs had the issue?
i believe the 75 and SP01. i would go ahead and search to verify. i believe there is a solid pin replacement.
I started using A-zooms, because Tikka said I should use snap caps.. Can’t tell if they’re painted steel or aluminum, but those caps sure do make a noticeable scraping sound when cycled. Tend to think that's worse than firing pin wear, if any.
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