Night Vision Dual 14s + COTI vs. Single 14 + NOX?

[MtnGhost]

What do you think the realistic pros and cons would be in these scenarios, with the two configurations in this topic (presuming high FOM / factory L3 14s and no issues with the brain processing a single 14 + NOX thermal imaging):

1. Hunting / traversing dense sub-alpine mountain terrain at night
2. SHTF / dark urban environment

 

[Surgeon_Shooter]

There’s a couple people that will disagree with me here but I think the coti is horrible. Worst piece of kit I’ve ever used. I would rather use a flashlight than use a coti lol

The 14 with the NOX is going to be leaps and bounds better in absolutely any environment.

Jay

 

[Nukes]

…I think the coti is horrible. Worst piece of kit I’ve ever used. I would rather use a flashlight than use a coti lol


Jay

Please 'splain your distaste for the COTI.

 

[Choid]

There’s a couple people that will disagree with me here but I think the coti is horrible. Worst piece of kit I’ve ever used. I would rather use a flashlight than use a coti lol

The 14 with the NOX is going to be leaps and bounds better in absolutely any environment.

Jay

Who the hell is this guy

The coti does kind of suck, but it is the best suck available for what it is. I personally do not like thermal on one eye i2 on the other. Especially with any bridge other than the KAC, where you end up with a tilted rectangle and a circle.

 

[TheHorta]

Nox + PVS.

Your brain may be “rigid” and not adapt well to “dual band.” In that case, the COTI may be the better path. The COTI does suck balls. It’s horrible for most uses.

The Nox will see things a COTI never will. Then you can snap it off your bridge and pop it on your gun.

 

[MtnGhost]

Who the hell is this guy

The coti does kind of suck, but it is the best suck available for what it is. I personally do not like thermal on one eye i2 on the other. Especially with any bridge other than the KAC, where you end up with a tilted rectangle and a circle.

Yeah, adjustability was a big factor in my decision to go with a Knight's bridge for my helmet setup. I tested a Wilcox bridge about a month ago, but the KVC definitely works better for me.

I've been training with dual 14s, and with just a single 14. I'm finding that I have better orientation with the single setup in an urban environment, but I wind up getting too "distracted" with duals in the woods due to the narrow FOV.

The duals also made target identification a challenge, and (this is hard to explain), but found that I had some anxiety trying to negotiate slippery terrain on rougher game trails while trying to spot and track animals. It was even worse during the elk rutting season (in bear country lol)..it gets tiring having to refocus the eyepieces constantly scanning around. Trying to keep overall situational awareness is a bitch without the aid of thermal.

 

[Choid]

Nox + PVS.

Your brain may be “rigid” and not adapt well to “dual band.” I. That case, the COTI may be the better path. The COTI does suck balls. It’s horrible for most uses.

The Nox will see things a COTI never will. Then you can snap it off your bridge and pop it on your gun.

I def have rigid brain. Guilty as charged.

Somebody here suggested the skeet works best in this role because of its collimation. I have no idea if this is true, sounds fishy to me, but the skeet works a lot better than any other device I have tried in dual band. I still think you need to be careful with every bit of the set up. I had been using the KAC bridge, and thought I would try out the IC bridge. That lasted about a second. The square picture of the thermal really needs to hang down at 90 degrees, not sit at some weird ass cant.

 

[Choid]

Yeah, adjustability was a big factor in my decision to go with a Knight's bridge for my helmet setup. I tested a Wilcox bridge about a month ago, but the KVC definitely works better for me.

I've been training with dual 14s, and with just a single 14. I'm finding that I have better orientation with the single setup in an urban environment, but I wind up getting too "distracted" with duals in the woods due to the narrow FOV.

The duals also made target identification a challenge, and (this is hard to explain), but found that I had some anxiety trying to negotiate slippery terrain on rougher game trails while trying to spot and track animals. It was even worse during the elk rutting season (in bear country lol)..it gets tiring having to refocus the eyepieces constantly scanning around. Trying to keep overall situational awareness is a bitch without the aid of thermal.

What kind of bitch ass bears do you have over there on the coast?

 

[MtnGhost]

Nox + PVS.

Your brain may be “rigid” and not adapt well to “dual band.” I. That case, the COTI may be the better path. The COTI does suck balls. It’s horrible for most uses.

The Nox will see things a COTI never will. Then you can snap it off your bridge and pop it on your gun.

Yeah, that's a definite concern. What about dual Skeet's?

 

[Choid]

Yeah, that's a definite concern. What about dual Skeet's?

They see God.

 

[Dvlray6]

I use the Skeet-IR with a PVS14 with e-coti. Works like a boss for me. I can thermally scan with my right eye on the Skeet and target with my left on the laser aided by the e-coti. The Knight Vision bridge is tits.

 

[MtnGhost]

I use the Skeet-IR with a PVS14 with e-coti. Works like a boss for me. I can thermally scan with my right eye on the Skeet and target with my left on the laser aided by the e-coti. The Knight Vision bridge is tits.

Damn! I never considered this 4th option. That's a very nice setup
Something else I've been noodling about issues running one if my PVS-14s with the NOX, is the differences in color. Guessing the NOX will be like the HALO-LRs, more of a sepia tone right? Whereas the the SkeetIR imaging is a lot closer in color tones to a factory filmless WP L3 (blueish).

If that is all correct, if I did decide to run the NOX + PVS14 - would it make sense to use a filter in the 14 to bring the color hues closer to one another?

 

[Dvlray6]

Damn! I never considered this 4th option. That's a very nice setup
Something else I've been noodling about issues running one if my PVS-14s with the NOX, is the differences in color. Guessing the NOX will be like the HALO-LRs, more of a sepia tone right? Whereas the the SkeetIR imaging is a lot closer in color tones to a factory filmless WP L3 (blueish).

If that is all correct, if I did decide to run the NOX + PVS14 - would it make sense to use a filter in the 14 to bring the color hues closer to one another?

Exactamundo. WP I2 with white shade thermal is tits.

 

[Surgeon_Shooter]

Please 'splain your distaste for the COTI.

Well imagine if Walmart decided to make a thermal imager. It would be better than the coti. I’ve ran almost any coti you could imagine and after about 15 minutes of messing with the gain and settings trying to make it perform like you want it to, I just rip it off and violently shove it in my pocket. I’ve even pulled these things apart and messed with the gain internally and I’ve never been impressed with the performance. The psq-20s are a little better because they are set up way differently but they are hard to get and extremely expensive.

Sorry for all the hate about the coti but I don’t like to see people waste money. In my opinion the coti is the most over priced and terrible performing optics that money can buy. There are too many other options that are way better nowadays. 10 years ago, yea get one because that’s one of your only options but in 2020? Hell naw to the naw naw naw!

Jay

 

[ShaoKahn]

Well imagine if Walmart decided to make a thermal imager. It would be better than the coti. I’ve ran almost any coti you could imagine and after about 15 minutes of messing with the gain and settings trying to make it perform like you want it to, I just rip it off and violently shove it in my pocket. I’ve even pulled these things apart and messed with the gain internally and I’ve never been impressed with the performance. The psq-20s are a little better because they are set up way differently but they are hard to get and extremely expensive.

Sorry for all the hate about the coti but I don’t like to see people waste money. In my opinion the coti is the most over priced and terrible performing optics that money can buy. There are too many other options that are way better nowadays. 10 years ago, yea get one because that’s one of your only options but in 2020? Hell naw to the naw naw naw!

Jay

Appreciate the feedback, because I was looking at a COTI.

 

[SkyScrapin]

I use the Skeet-IR with a PVS14 with e-coti. Works like a boss for me. I can thermally scan with my right eye on the Skeet and target with my left on the laser aided by the e-coti. The Knight Vision bridge is tits.

Rad hitler stash

 

[WhereNow&How]

What do you think the realistic pros and cons would be in these scenarios, with the two configurations in this topic (presuming high FOM / factory L3 14s and no issues with the brain processing a single 14 + NOX thermal imaging):

1. Hunting / traversing dense sub-alpine mountain terrain at night
2. SHTF / dark urban environment

Two completely different situations. Get both if you really want to be covered correctly.

A PVS 14 and bridged Thermal for regular hunting will perform better than a COTI.

However, you get in a SHTF situation and have to move fast, the COTI will shine in Outline Mode for detecting anything alive within 200-300 yards typically. It is not good at PID but it is excellent for letting you know something is alive to check out further with your Illuminator or Thermal Mounted Weapon sight.

 

[WhereNow&How]

They see God.

And Horta is God's right hand man. At least in the NV Thermal world.

 

[jwramp]

Appreciate the feedback, because I was looking at a COTI.

Some people disagree with that sentiment and are quite happy with the COTI’s performance, too. Just saying.

 

[Dvlray6]

Some people disagree with that sentiment and are quite happy with the COTI’s performance, too. Just saying.

Yep. I do. For what it is designed for it is fantastic. As a thermal device alone, anemic. For me, I can scan with the pure thermal Skeet-IR and shoot off the I2/COTI. The COTI is helpful under conditions where the target is in the brush. I’ve also found it useful when I mount to my Sentinel binos to detect anything living out to the 200 +/- yard point. There are other solutions for all of this, but the COTI does everything it is advertised to do and works like a champ. In my experience, folks disappointed with it are expecting performance in an area where it doesn’t excel. YMMV.

 

[Rancid Coolaid]

Part of my problem with PVS14+ thermal was mount (wilcox) sucked for thermal; and my thermal was a Breach. In that setup, I hated it and went back to dual 14s.
My movement is heavily vehicle-based with some movement in dense brush, and 14s do well in that scenario. A flip-down focus ring helps when I need up-close focus.

Had I used a better bridge for dual and a better thermal, my song might be different.

Moral of the story: choose your gear wisely!

 

[MtnGhost]

Part of my problem with PVS14+ thermal was mount (wilcox) sucked for thermal; and my thermal was a Breach. In that setup, I hated it and went back to dual 14s.
My movement is heavily vehicle-based with some movement in dense brush, and 14s do well in that scenario. A flip-down focus ring helps when I need up-close focus.

Had I used a better bridge for dual and a better thermal, my song might be different.

Moral of the story: choose your gear wisely!

No doubt! The bridge was one part of my kit that I didn't take the advice from others on (I was being steered towards the Wilcox lol). In the end, I did my homework

 

[MtnGhost]

What kind of bitch ass bears do you have over there on the coast?

There's some grizzlies and lots of black bear up where I hunt deer and elk. The land owner that I know up north has seen "dozens" of grizzlies on her property this past couple of years, but the state says there might only be 5 in that area.

Not too worried about most of the black bears. I have been face to face with them several times. Some of the males get pretty god damned big though. Hundreds of pounds of muscle, but they're usually wired to run and climb trees unless they're sick or just plain stubborn. Not usually too concerned with cougars, but they're numbers are a little too healthy in a couple of the GMUs.

And of course the illegal drug farmers that you have to look out for in the spring / summer in some of the more remote areas. Pretty sure those guys have thermal too

 

[Mortalpawn]

I agree with earlier post that OP's two scenarios are very different conditions.

Hunting in the woods, in mountain terrain you are in more of a long range spotting and ID scenario and not facing any threats. You might be best served by a bino IR setup to make movement easier on the terrain, though it can be a personal preference. In this scenario you can probably afford to stop and scan with thermal - be it handheld, head mounted, or weapon mounted and then ID and engage with a good illuminator. Its not tactical, so you have plenty of time to spot, track, id and engage the target. The ranges are longer. I'd be fine with a COTI here, but the NOX will give you a bit better reach and resolution. A iRay MH25 would be a significant step up over either but obviously more dollars.

Low light urban SHTF is different. You need to move a lot more, but the terrain is easier to navigate in some ways. Positive ID is a real issue - you can't just point your gun at every thermal blob and pull the trigger like you are hunting hogs. Most urban encounters are innocents.

You also need to seriously consider the use of white light by enemies as any clown with a flashlight and pistol can light you up and flood your IR. Imagine turning a corner or opening a door and being hit by a few hundred lumens of white light. Can you flip a monocular up and engage fast enough with your own white light/red dot? Probably not...so that means running with one tube flipped up a lot of the time so you can engage with your own white light. Also you want to keep in the shadows (even a dark city has some light) so sometimes its best to have one eye in the clear to gauge ambient light.

In a truly urban environment where I don't have a bunch of NV equipped buddies covering my back, I would probably rather have the COTI, and I might even run just one monocular and leave my dominant eye free to engage with white light and red dot. The reason is that you have a high probability of moving between mixed lighting conditions or getting lit up. The environment is far more fluid. Even high end thermal does not have the capability to do a positive ID (innocent teenager or threat?) so that's up to a IR laser/illuminator. The COTI is "good enough" to find people at the short ranges you are likely to engage and then them light them up with your illuminator to positively ID. A NOX or similar might be useful outside, but again we're typically not engaging past 50 yards due to the positive ID requirements.

Indoors, the ranges and times are so short the thermal is not a huge advantage. Typically you are running an wide IR illuminator/laser on full time in this scenario to give you enough ambient IR, and I would have one tube flipped up in any case because of the white light threat mentioned above. Again I would rather have the COTI so I can run it on one monocular. The main thermal use case here is identifying signs of recent activity (warm blankets, pots, etc...) or perhaps the guy peeking around the corner at the end of the hall.

 

[MtnGhost]

I agree with earlier post that OP's two scenarios are very different conditions.

Hunting in the woods, in mountain terrain you are in more of a long range spotting and ID scenario and not facing any threats. You might be best served by a bino IR setup to make movement easier on the terrain, though it can be a personal preference. In this scenario you can probably afford to stop and scan with thermal - be it handheld, head mounted, or weapon mounted and then ID and engage with a good illuminator. Its not tactical, so you have plenty of time to spot, track, id and engage the target. The ranges are longer. I'd be fine with a COTI here, but the NOX will give you a bit better reach and resolution. A iRay MH25 would be a significant step up over either but obviously more dollars.

Low light urban SHTF is different. You need to move a lot more, but the terrain is easier to navigate in some ways. Positive ID is a real issue - you can't just point your gun at every thermal blob and pull the trigger like you are hunting hogs. Most urban encounters are innocents.

You also need to seriously consider the use of white light by enemies as any clown with a flashlight and pistol can light you up and flood your IR. Imagine turning a corner or opening a door and being hit by a few hundred lumens of white light. Can you flip a monocular up and engage fast enough with your own white light/red dot? Probably not...so that means running with one tube flipped up a lot of the time so you can engage with your own white light. Also you want to keep in the shadows (even a dark city has some light) so sometimes its best to have one eye in the clear to gauge ambient light.

In a truly urban environment where I don't have a bunch of NV equipped buddies covering my back, I would probably rather have the COTI, and I might even run just one monocular and leave my dominant eye free to engage with white light and red dot. The reason is that you have a high probability of moving between mixed lighting conditions or getting lit up. The environment is far more fluid. Even high end thermal does not have the capability to do a positive ID (innocent teenager or threat?) so that's up to a IR laser/illuminator. The COTI is "good enough" to find people at the short ranges you are likely to engage and then them light them up with your illuminator to positively ID. A NOX or similar might be useful outside, but again we're typically not engaging past 50 yards due to the positive ID requirements.

Indoors, the ranges and times are so short the thermal is not a huge advantage. Typically you are running an wide IR illuminator/laser on full time in this scenario to give you enough ambient IR, and I would have one tube flipped up in any case because of the white light threat mentioned above. Again I would rather have the COTI so I can run it on one monocular. The main thermal use case here is identifying signs of recent activity (warm blankets, pots, etc...) or perhaps the guy peeking around the corner at the end of the hall.

That makes sense. I would probably keep the NOX stowed up as much as possible in a SHTF urban environment, and use it more in a scanning type role in certain situations. I try not to rely on any electronics as much as I can, but a single L3 14 on my non-dominant eye is just fucking incredible to me compared to only having white light lol

Regarding the forest / mountain scenario, I consider this to be the primary environment for my usage. I do a lot of woods stalking for smaller game. Grouse especially. They have this habit of appearing out of no where, getting spooked - and then flying up to the nearest branch up the closest tree where they're very hard to spot.

On top of that, it gets incredibly dim at this latitude in the PNW around this time of year. The density of the old growth forests and the constant overcast sky has made me wish for a decent thermal setup. Depending on the specific area and conditions (dense / shaded areas, wet / dry, etc) - it gets extremely difficult to make anything out with inferior thermal.

That said, I tested a HALO-LR recently. There were some issues with the specific unit that I had, but it led me to believe that a smaller Nvision-based system like the NOX would work ok closer range (~30-40 meters) in denser vegitation. I don't expect it to identify targets as far as the HALO-LR, but if I'm able to at least detect a heat signature of a smaller animal in an old growth forest environment, I'd consider that to be sufficient. I'm thinking a COTI wouldn't get that job done in that specific type of environment, so I might wind up waiting for my NOX to see what it's capable of before I buy into anything else.

 

[MtnGhost]

The Wilcox is great bro. Knights also makes a great product

Yeah, I'm not discrediting the Wilcox bridges. I tested one after I completed my bump helmet setup and immediately put my KAC back on lol

 

[MtnGhost]

Different strokes different folks. I prefer the Wilcox

I think it just comes down to compatibility with each person's head geometry and individual ergonomics. The KAC works perfect for me. I just wished the Crye nightcap would have fit me better. I couldn't wear it for more than 10mins at a time, and my helmet doesn't exactly pack down as easily

 

[Mortalpawn]

...
That said, I tested a HALO-LR recently. There were some issues with the specific unit that I had, but it led me to believe that a smaller Nvision-based system like the NOX would work ok closer range (~30-40 meters) in denser vegitation. I don't expect it to identify targets as far as the HALO-LR, but if I'm able to at least detect a heat signature of a smaller animal in an old growth forest environment, I'd consider that to be sufficient. I'm thinking a COTI wouldn't get that job done in that specific type of environment, so I might wind up waiting for my NOX to see what it's capable of before I buy into anything else.

I agree if your primary use case is hunting, then thermal is a real plus. It is easier to nav over rough terrain and forest with IR binoculars, but the split IR/thermal image is manageable for most people. While I've not seen a NOX, the COTI will pick up small animals in the forest. We have old growth forest behind my house and I see squirrels easily within 50+ yards, but its a 30hz device so definitely some lag. The NOX at 640p an 60Hz will definitely perform better. If you are not weapon mounting it you could also consider the iRay MH25 China skeet for 2k less.

 

[MtnGhost]

I agree if your primary use case is hunting, then thermal is a real plus. It is easier to nav over rough terrain and forest with IR binoculars, but the split IR/thermal image is manageable for most people. While I've not seen a NOX, the COTI will pick up small animals in the forest. We have old growth forest behind my house and I see squirrels easily within 50+ yards, but its a 30hz device so definitely some lag. The NOX at 640p an 60Hz will definitely perform better. If you are not weapon mounting it you could also consider the iRay MH25 China skeet for 2k less.

Yeah, if the COTI was better than 30hz - I probably wouldn't hesitate to get one to try out. That 30hz is just super painful to have to pause and deal with.

I was impressed with the HALO-LR's overall imaging rendering speed. Made me anxious to get a monocular, but I suspect that I'm going to wind up with a SkeetIR after all is said and done lol

 

[TheHorta]

Went out with three guys last night. They don’t own NODs. I had my dual Skeets. I gave Dude-1 my 31A’s + COTI. Dude-2 had my pimped DTNVGs + COTI. Dude-3 had to slum it with dual WP PVS-14’s on a ModArmory bridge.

We all had thermal on ARs (also supplied by me) — UTC, CRATOS, Halo-LR, Reap v2 60.

Throughout the night, I swapped with each Dude. Every last one of them was blown away by how overwhelmingly superior the Skeets were over the best World Class i2/COTI money can buy. Even for walking / hiking you can see terrain better with Skeets than with NODs.

When I had any NOD on my melon, I felt a severe disadvantage versus the Skeets. The world comes alive with quality thermal. It is absolutely incredible the wide gulf between the two. Sure, there are a handful of things NV does better, but I don’t do any of those things, so it’s a moot point for me — I don’t kick doors or play CQB. I don’t drive anything with a fixed windscreen. The only thing I do where I reach for NV is stargazing/skywatching. For literally everything else, I’m naked, exposed and vulnerable with anything other than dual Skeets.

Walking, hiking, driving (quads and Rangers) hunting, spotting, stalking, etc. All monumentally better with quality thermal. It’s not even close.

 

[MtnGhost]

Went out with three guys last night. They don’t own NODs. I had my dual Skeets. I gave Dude-1 my 31A’s + COTI. Dude-2 had my pimped DTNVGs + COTI. Dude-3 had to slum it with dual WP PVS-14’s on a ModArmory bridge.

We all had thermal on ARs (also supplied by me) — UTC, CRATOS, Halo-LR, Reap v2 60.

Throughout the night, I swapped with each Dude. Every last one of them was blown away by how overwhelmingly superior the Skeets were over the best World Class i2/COTI money can buy. Even for walking / hiking you can see terrain better with Skeets than with NODs.

When I had any NOD on my melon, I felt a severe disadvantage versus the Skeets. The world comes alive with quality thermal. It is absolutely incredible the wide gulf between the two. Sure, there are a handful of things NV does better, but I don’t do any of those things, so it’s a moot point for me — I don’t kick doors or play CQB. I don’t drive anything with a fixed windscreen. The only thing I do where I reach for NV is stargazing/skywatching. For literally everything else, I’m naked, exposed and vulnerable with anything other than dual Skeets.

Walking, hiking, driving (quads and Rangers) hunting, spotting, stalking, etc. All monumentally better with quality thermal. It’s not even close.

So they're really that far ahead of the pack?

If so, then I would probably wind up wasting time with the NOX (and my new factory L3 14s for that matter). I'd have some concerns getting a pair of them though, if one was any different than the other - that would drive me nuts. My L3 tubes are identical (both factory spec'd 2376+, only difference is a tiny blem on the one I run on my non-dominant eye). Other than that, they're twins.

Does Trij/Oasys warranty devices to non-LE/MIL customers?

EDIT: and thank you for the reply!

 

[TheHorta]

Yeah, full warranty. Variations aren’t severe enough to make pairing an issue. I would love to compare a set of Nox and see the difference. The ChinaSkeets are reasonably close, but there’s more tunneling with them. That said, you can have THREE CoronaSkeets for ONE GenuineSkeet. That’s a compelling value proposition.

 

[TNVC_Will]

I recently decided to try out HMT/NV with Breach & -14 on KVC bridge with OSS/K clip. It’s a cool concept and has its place but I’m not a fan of it as an only system. They don’t fuse together and the thermal distracts from your NV eye, so you end up using one or the other. If you’re someone who prefers a monocular (single -14) it’ll probably be a good combo for you. Me, I prefer dual NV tubes.

I do a lot of moving (walking/hiking on our property) and for that running dual -14s or NV binos with the Breach on a lanyard is superior or at least for me it is.

When I want to scan with thermal I just tilt my head back or push the goggles & front of the helmet up. If I’ll be staying stationary for a while I pop off a -14 and pop in the Breach. Having dual -14s & thermal with the ability to use all 3 on a QD bridge gives the most options.

I debated on a COTI vs HMT/NV but went with a dedicated monocular because it has more versatility. Ideally, have both, but if the choice is either a COTI or a thermal monocular, the thermal monocular is more versatile with better thermal performance.

 

[MtnGhost]

Yeah, full warranty. Variations aren’t severe enough to make pairing an issue. I would love to compare a set of Nox and see the difference. The ChinaSkeets are reasonably close, but there’s more tunneling with them. That said, you can have THREE CoronaSkeets for ONE GenuineSkeet. That’s a compelling value proposition.

Damn!!! I just had a detailed reply disappear once I posted

The gist of my reply was this -

• Considering swapping out my PVS-14s with dual Skeets (or running a single Skeet with a 14)
• I currently have no thermal
• Allergic to Chinesium
• The FOV with my dual PVS-14s is fine indoors and urban areas; sucks in the forests here - how much better are dual Skeets in this regard?
• I also build and shoot custom airguns, and found that a PVS-14 mounted behind my NX8s and ATACRs is pure MAGIC! (Clarity is ridiculously great at high magnification)
• Correct me if I'm wrong - aren't the Skeets fairly limited as clip-ons with optics? (I cannot downgrade the awesomeness of a 14 + glass on my PCP airguns, I use this configuration frequently)
• Aside from battery life, am I missing any advantages that my PVS-14s have over a Skeet?

 

[MtnGhost]

I recently decided to try out HMT/NV with Breach & -14 on KVC bridge with OSS/K clip. It’s a cool concept and has its place but I’m not a fan of it as an only system. They don’t fuse together and the thermal distracts from your NV eye, so you end up using one or the other. If you’re someone who prefers a monocular (single -14) it’ll probably be a good combo for you. Me, I prefer dual NV tubes.

I do a lot of moving (walking/hiking on our property) and for that running dual -14s or NV binos with the Breach on a lanyard is superior or at least for me it is.

When I want to scan with thermal I just tilt my head back or push the goggles & front of the helmet up. If I’ll be staying stationary for a while I pop off a -14 and pop in the Breach. Having dual -14s & thermal with the ability to use all 3 on a QD bridge gives the most options.

I debated on a COTI vs HMT/NV but went with a dedicated monocular because it has more versatility. Ideally, have both, but if the choice is either a COTI or a thermal monocular, the thermal monocular is more versatile with better thermal performance.

Out of curiosity, what is the terrain / environment like where you are? Is it a flatter / open terrain, or do you have a lot of obstacles and slippery rocks?

I have found it to be near impossible to negotiate the terrain here with dual 14s. Especially denser brush, fallen trees covered in moss, and game trails with lots of rocks. I already broke my leg once (daytime, not with nods), so I'm trying to make sure that I have every advantage possible to avoid another accident.

 

[TNVC_Will]

Out of curiosity, what is the terrain / environment like where you are? Is it a flatter / open terrain, or do you have a lot of obstacles and slippery rocks?

I have found it to be near impossible to negotiate the terrain here with dual 14s. Especially denser brush, fallen trees covered in moss, and game trails with lots of rocks. I already broke my leg once (daytime, not with nods), so I'm trying to make sure that I have every advantage possible to avoid another accident.

You’ll get better at it. I’ve been hiking with goggles (dual tubes) for the last 5 years or so.
I used to mainly hike in the mountains on & off trail but almost exclusively on my property these days.

It’s 6k ft mix of juniper, pinions, cacti, & plenty of rocks. I do have groomed trails and small roads on the property I use but I go off trail fairly often. Lots of undulation. It’s not flat.

 

[WhereNow&How]

Dude-3 had to slum it with dual WP PVS-14’s on a ModArmory bridge.

Hmmm, so i guess I am Kang of the Slums.

 

[stefan73]

You’ll get better at it. I’ve been hiking with goggles (dual tubes) for the last 5 years or so.
I used to mainly hike in the mountains on & off trail but almost exclusively on my property these days.

It’s 6k ft mix of juniper, pinions, cacti, & plenty of rocks. I do have groomed trails and small roads on the property I use but I go off trail fairly often. Lots of undulation. It’s not flat.

I've got experience walking, running, moving, driving and directing/BC'ing in various environments with 7's and 14's. The more you do it the easier it gets.

 

[jwramp]

One advantage of dual 14s or other manual-gain housings is being able to turn them down so you don't completely lose your peripheral view. Having them dimmed down a fair amount helps immensely with being able to glance under them at your footing when there's just enough natural light to aid your movement. Always surprised at how manual gain seems to be way down the list of priorities for folks selling the newer housings.

 

[TNVC_Will]

One advantage of dual 14s or other manual-gain housings is being able to turn them down so you don't completely lose your peripheral view. Having them dimmed down a fair amount helps immensely with being able to glance under them at your footing when there's just enough natural light to aid your movement. Always surprised at how manual gain seems to be way down the list of priorities for folks selling the newer housings.

It'd be nice if all 11769 tubes had removeable pigtails like L3H cause it'd make it a hell of a lot easier for virtually anyone to DIY swap housings. I'm only sourcing 10160's these days because of their versatility to go into any housing and that's actually what I have in my -14's (L3 GP M890 Omegas). Running them all the way forward on the mount makes it easier to peek under them but on dark nights it's difficult to peek because of the brightness. Pushing the goggles/helmet up to get the light further away from your eyes and giving you eyes a few seconds or so to adapt helps considerably.

 

[SnazSleepWalker]

A while ago I started a thread on arfcom about moving through thick woodlands with night vision. It can definitely be challenging, loss of peripheral vision, leaves bouncing ir light back at you. Thick forest on dark nights is good fun and takes a lot of practice to get comfortable with.

 

[stefan73]

A while ago I started a thread on arfcom about moving through thick woodlands with night vision. It can definitely be challenging, loss of peripheral vision, leaves bouncing ir light back at you. Thick forest on dark nights is good fun and takes a lot of practice to get comfortable with.

Definitely takes some practice. We used to do a LOT of force on force at night for training and then came the actual deployments.

 

[MtnGhost]

One advantage of dual 14s or other manual-gain housings is being able to turn them down so you don't completely lose your peripheral view. Having them dimmed down a fair amount helps immensely with being able to glance under them at your footing when there's just enough natural light to aid your movement. Always surprised at how manual gain seems to be way down the list of priorities for folks selling the newer housings.

100% - I keep my gain down extremely low, I find it easy to adapt to and my eyes adjust to the dark a lot faster keeping it down to a minimum. I couldn't see running gen3 NV without it (that and autogating).

A while ago I started a thread on arfcom about moving through thick woodlands with night vision. It can definitely be challenging, loss of peripheral vision, leaves bouncing ir light back at you. Thick forest on dark nights is good fun and takes a lot of practice to get comfortable with.

This is exactly the environment that I'm using them in 100% of the time. I'm also a solo hunter, so if get hurt - then all that I can do is hope that my PLB has a clear signal to the sat constellation (50/50 chance). The other extremely challenging problem in dense old growth forests is that everything is covered in dew / moisture, and with 290 days of cloud cover on average, everything is about the same temperature day/night, so thermal has some challenges.

I would love to be able to improve the peripheral issues with my dual 14s. Not really interested in running quad tubes, but I'll say this - I feel extra vulnerable / paranoid in certain situations in the mountain wilderness running them. I have not hunted larger game with them yet, but if I were hovering over a fresh kill - I'd feel severely disadvantaged without SOME form of thermal to aid me. Especially in river valley type areas (aka, nearly every place I hunt), where you can't hear anything that well over the running water.

This is where I started considering a COTI or figuring what my best option would be for thermal.

 

[TNVC_Will]

100% - I keep my gain down extremely low, I find it easy to adapt to and my eyes adjust to the dark a lot faster keeping it down to a minimum. I couldn't see running gen3 NV without it (that and autogating).


This is exactly the environment that I'm using them in 100% of the time. I'm also a solo hunter, so if get hurt - then all that I can do is hope that my PLB has a clear signal to the sat constellation (50/50 chance). The other extremely challenging problem in dense old growth forests is that everything is covered in dew / moisture, and with 290 days of cloud cover on average, everything is about the same temperature day/night, so thermal has some challenges.

I would love to be able to improve the peripheral issues with my dual 14s. Not really interested in running quad tubes, but I'll say this - I feel extra vulnerable / paranoid in certain situations in the mountain wilderness running them. I have not hunted larger game with them yet, but if I were hovering over a fresh kill - I'd feel severely disadvantaged without SOME form of thermal to aid me. Especially in river valley type areas (aka, nearly every place I hunt), where you can't hear anything that well over the running water.

This is where I started considering a COTI or figuring what my best option would be for thermal.

In my experience, in some spots it is simply best to go nods up, get your eyes dark adapted, and/or use visible light. Use a backpack with a large beavertail or a big enough pack to put away your helmet/goggles if you need to switch to a headlamp. I use the Mil Spec Monkey Boss Beaver. A light with low & high power settings is best not just for navigation but for battery life. Red is cool but I prefer white since I'm not concerned about bad guys seeing my vis light. Always always always have a couple of lights (IR and vis) and keep plenty of extra batteries.

I can sympathize about your PLB. I have an Inmarsat sat phone and test it routinely. It can be a royal PITA sometimes to get and maintain a signal. I recommend carrying a powerful visible strobe (with SOS pattern is ideal). Of course you should always have a handheld light regardless but carry a good one with tight beam for directional signaling through canopy.

It is unnerving when your spidey senses start going off whether it's real or in your head, lol. I agree about thermal and this is my reason for recently getting the Breach. Just keep in mind that with any of this stuff even high end thermal there are no guarantees and you still may not see stuff especially in dense vegetation. Of course you have a much better shot with thermal. There are big cats where I live and I've always hiked in areas with them but I'm almost always in the company of my GSD (and Akita before that). They are a deterrent to other animals and at least mine have almost always indicated when they detect animal scent. I've never (knock on wood) had a run in that truly made me fearful that I was in immediate danger. We have black bears but I've yet to see signs or scat on my property. I always keep a side arm & blade because odds are they'll be on you and you won't see it coming. My biggest animal concern is running into javelina and them coming after the pooch which is common because they mistake dogs for coyotes.

What I do when my spidey senses get triggered is go nods up, visible light on, and create as much noise as possible. Chances are, and I've seen this firsthand, is that animals may not know what you are if they come across you blacked out using nods since they don't experience humans like this.

ETA: MtnGhost based on your last post, I think a -14 and thermal on a KVC bridge would be a good choice for you. You can articulate up the thermal to get that eye dark adapted or roll up both devices and use your eyeballs,

 

[WhereNow&How]

One advantage of dual 14s or other manual-gain housings is being able to turn them down so you don't completely lose your peripheral view. Having them dimmed down a fair amount helps immensely with being able to glance under them at your footing when there's just enough natural light to aid your movement. Always surprised at how manual gain seems to be way down the list of priorities for folks selling the newer housings.

Yep, my dual 14 setups with COTI and/or Breach might be a tad heavier than the Gucci stuff, but that system is full featured, can independently adjust gain on each, redundant in case of a power failure in one unit and pretty rugged on the Mod Armory Bridge mounts. Suits all of my criteria perfectly.

NV dual users that have never had the benefit of running one tube with gain turned up and one with gain turned down, don't even know the benefits they are missing. This is especially true when running a COTI.

Brings true meaning to the saying: "they don't know what they don't know."

 

[WhereNow&How]

Out of curiosity, what is the terrain / environment like where you are? Is it a flatter / open terrain, or do you have a lot of obstacles and slippery rocks?

I have found it to be near impossible to negotiate the terrain here with dual 14s. Especially denser brush, fallen trees covered in moss, and game trails with lots of rocks. I already broke my leg once (daytime, not with nods), so I'm trying to make sure that I have every advantage possible to avoid another accident.

Slow and steady is fast at night. In certain environments and night time atmospheric conditions it really helps to have a Breach running beside a 14 to navigate bad terrain.

 

[TNVC_Will]

I was able to finally get the Breach and -14 to work together pretty well. I used them for several hours last night with breaks in between to see if it was repeatable and it was. At least for me, both devices need to be as close to center as possible.

KVC bridge with OSS set and both K clips.
PVS-14 on dominant eye. Thin filmed GP with no amber filter.
Right eye K-clip (offset the device inward) on the rail that puts the buttons facing inward towards the -14 with screen in portrait layout. IPD was maxed out inwards.
Right eye OSS shoe because the -14 is on my right eye. IPD maxed out inwards.
Devices were very close to my eyes.
Outdoor alert or black hot. Surprisingly, sepia didn't work as well, even with an amber filter.
Breach brightness on lowest setting.

I still had some double vision but it was minor and nowhere as bad as before. I was able to get the best overlay I've had yet at infinity focus distances. It worked awesome!

If you have the same setup and experienced the same problems give this a try.

 

[WhereNow&How]

@Will-1 you gonna end up in a Psyc ward doing that.

Glad its working out for you. I use em like 2 TV Screens.

 

[TNVC_Will]

@Will-1 you gonna end up in a Psyc ward doing that.

Glad its working out for you. I use em like 2 TV Screens.

LOL no doubt. There's been a "time or two" motionless under cover of night shadow in middle of nowhere doing SLLS and say to myself "I think I may have a problem"

 

[TNVC_Will]

Here's what it looks like set up like I mentioned on my reply at the bottom of page 1