Dumb questions from a big idiot

[shootstraight]

I've been shooting for over 30 years but mostly just for fun and the occasional deer hunt, but recently decided longer range precision shooting might be fun. I'm probably wrong and I will probably spend a bunch of money on it, not be good at it from the get-go, and then, like the impetuous child I am, give up on it too quickly and move on to some other temporary obsession.

So I have this action I figured I'd use. It's a Remington 700UML (NOTE: for those unaware, this is not the 700ML muzzle loader, which is a different beast altogether, this is the "Ultimate" ML, which I am told is essentially a Rem 700 short action receiver without the cut in the bottom to accept rifle cartridges from a box magazine. I initially picked this up with the goofy goal of assembling a smokeless muzzleloader but I think I'd rather go another way with it. Maybe without that cut in the bottom, it's a little stiffer which might help in the precsion department? Or maybe I don't know what the h-e-double-hockey-sticks I'm talking about? Probably the latter...)

Since I'm not a gunsmith and always looking to take the easy way out, I figured I'd try one of the Rem-age style barrels, which have the Savage-style locking nut which apparently makes it easier to headspace.

Anyway, as you know, all decisions are best made under pressure and without research. So I'm looking at this Black Friday sale from x-caliber and thinking of placing an order for a barrel before the sale is over, but there's a crap-ton of options on the barrel that I don't know how to answer, and some I'd never considered or even heard of before.

I picked .308 because I'm old and not interested in learning about new calibers (but mostly because off the shelf ammo is easy to find; I am not a reloader)

I think I've convinced myself a 22" bull sporter would be good (there's also a 'heavy bull sporter'...?) Why? I don't know; I figured a shorter barrel might be stiffer but a longer barrel gets a little bit of extra velocity, so picking a bull profile might help get some of the stiffness back. Plus the extra weight would help. I'm not really planning on trekking across the arctic with it strapped to my back so weight isn't a big deal. Would that profile be really hard to find a stock to fit?

Breech counter-bore: I figure I'm using stock remington extractors so .700 is fine? Does .715 allow me to run either extractor or do I have to pick .700 for remington and 715 for M16 style?

Cal/Twistrate: I randomly selected 1:10 because I saw this chart ( https://www.ammoman.com/blog/308-twist-rate-chart/ ) and consider myself an expert now (just kidding). But what I have no idea about is 5R vs 6 is. What does that even mean?

I know this post will offend a lot of experienced shooters but thanks to anyone who takes pity on a clueless newbie and posts some general rules of thumb to get me pointed in the right direction. The above silliness notwithstanding, I'm not afraid to read and learn but I'm also looking to slap something together and play with it and see if I can get it to work, just for fun.

thanks and happy Thanksgiving

 

[TheBigCountry]

Not sure you can use that receiver for what you want to do…maybe someone else can chime in with the exact technicalities.

Cut your losses and get something like a Tikka CTR from Eurooptic.

 

[TheOfficeT-Rex]

While at first blush I think you can use that receiver, but unless you have an emotional attachment, I wouldn't. It will be easier to get a turnkey rifle with a box mag. It will be less frustrating and less to worry about as you're just starting out.

How much have you budgeted for this project? Keep in mind that includes scope, rail, rings, and muzzle device. Remember to factor in an additional 50 cents to print off the weaponized math sheets at your local library.

 

[357Max]

I've been shooting for over 30 years but mostly just for fun and the occasional deer hunt, but recently decided longer range precision shooting might be fun. I'm probably wrong and I will probably spend a bunch of money on it, not be good at it from the get-go, and then, like the impetuous child I am, give up on it too quickly and move on to some other temporary obsession.

So I have this action I figured I'd use. It's a Remington 700UML (NOTE: for those unaware, this is not the 700ML muzzle loader, which is a different beast altogether, this is the "Ultimate" ML, which I am told is essentially a Rem 700 short action receiver without the cut in the bottom to accept rifle cartridges from a box magazine. I initially picked this up with the goofy goal of assembling a smokeless muzzleloader but I think I'd rather go another way with it. Maybe without that cut in the bottom, it's a little stiffer which might help in the precsion department? Or maybe I don't know what the h-e-double-hockey-sticks I'm talking about? Probably the latter...)

Since I'm not a gunsmith and always looking to take the easy way out, I figured I'd try one of the Rem-age style barrels, which have the Savage-style locking nut which apparently makes it easier to headspace.

Anyway, as you know, all decisions are best made under pressure and without research. So I'm looking at this Black Friday sale from x-caliber and thinking of placing an order for a barrel before the sale is over, but there's a crap-ton of options on the barrel that I don't know how to answer, and some I'd never considered or even heard of before.

I picked .308 because I'm old and not interested in learning about new calibers (but mostly because off the shelf ammo is easy to find; I am not a reloader)

I think I've convinced myself a 22" bull sporter would be good (there's also a 'heavy bull sporter'...?) Why? I don't know; I figured a shorter barrel might be stiffer but a longer barrel gets a little bit of extra velocity, so picking a bull profile might help get some of the stiffness back. Plus the extra weight would help. I'm not really planning on trekking across the arctic with it strapped to my back so weight isn't a big deal. Would that profile be really hard to find a stock to fit?

Breech counter-bore: I figure I'm using stock remington extractors so .700 is fine? Does .715 allow me to run either extractor or do I have to pick .700 for remington and 715 for M16 style?

Cal/Twistrate: I randomly selected 1:10 because I saw this chart ( https://www.ammoman.com/blog/308-twist-rate-chart/ ) and consider myself an expert now (just kidding). But what I have no idea about is 5R vs 6 is. What does that even mean?

I know this post will offend a lot of experienced shooters but thanks to anyone who takes pity on a clueless newbie and posts some general rules of thumb to get me pointed in the right direction. The above silliness notwithstanding, I'm not afraid to read and learn but I'm also looking to slap something together and play with it and see if I can get it to work, just for fun.

thanks and happy Thanksgiving

What is the bolt face on the 700 UML???? Are you sure it is correct for a 308. It may be an oddball bolt face. Also is the ejection port length std 700SA or shorter.

 

[Wyfox]

Bolt face is .470 same as 308, doesnt have an ejector though. But for a single shot that is fine. Def can be done but buying a new rifle would be much easier.
I helped R&D the original Ultimate muzzleloader design and we just used Rem 40x single shot actions with the ejector pulled out to build them.

 

[Evintos]

- Most modern chassis will allow for a 1.250" and larger barrel diameter so the Bull Sporter or Heavy Bull Sporter will likely work. You can also consider MTU, M24, Heavy Palma, Medium/Standard Palma contours. Suggest threading the muzzle 5/8-24" for muzzle devices.
- 22" is fine
- 1:10 for 308 is fine.
- 5R is a type of rifling with lands having more gentle slopes towards grooves than conventional rifling which is steeper. Odd number of lands supposedly has less bullet deformation because there is no opposing land on the opposite side that "squeezes" the bullet as it travels down the bore. Gentler slope + odd number = less bullet deformation than 6 land/groove rifling.

Echo previous posts about just going with a different receiver. Since you're not a gunsmith and I assume you'll send the receiver out for work done, the amount of time and labor costs used to modify that receiver will probably exceed the cost of just buying a brand new 700SA action from Brownells. Better yet, you could buy one of the custom actions (that are R700 chassis and trigger compatible) that are currently on sale that uses Savage style prefits which gives you a larger amount of options for shouldered prefits without using a barrel nut.

 

[shootstraight]

Wow! Thanks for the replies. I'm glad I started here.

Not sure you can use that receiver for what you want to do…maybe someone else can chime in with the exact technicalities.

Cut your losses and get something like a Tikka CTR from Eurooptic.

Good advice, but I'm a sucker for punishment...

While at first blush I think you can use that receiver, but unless you have an emotional attachment, I wouldn't. It will be easier to get a turnkey rifle with a box mag. It will be less frustrating and less to worry about as you're just starting out.

How much have you budgeted for this project? Keep in mind that includes scope, rail, rings, and muzzle device. Remember to factor in an additional 50 cents to print off the weaponized math sheets at your local library.

I'm sure you're right but I would like to stuff this square peg into the round hole. Excellent point about budgeting first. I forgot to mention above I am cheaper than free lunch. Would love to throw something together for $500 but of course, it will not be a hyper-accurate Rambo sniper whiz bang performer. But I'm just looking to get in at the entry level and see what I can do with minimal investment.

What is the bolt face on the 700 UML???? Are you sure it is correct for a 308. It may be an oddball bolt face. Also is the ejection port length std 700SA or shorter.

I do have a standard .308 bolt (I believe the bolt face is .470?? I could double check it but I don't know where to measure it)

Bolt face is .470 same as 308, doesnt have an ejector though. But for a single shot that is fine. Def can be done but buying a new rifle would be much easier.
I helped R&D the original Ultimate muzzleloader design and we just used Rem 40x single shot actions with the ejector pulled out to build them.

Cool!! Thanks for the confirmation.

- Most modern chassis will allow for a 1.250" and larger barrel diameter so the Bull Sporter or Heavy Bull Sporter will likely work. You can also consider MTU, M24, Heavy Palma, Medium/Standard Palma contours. Suggest threading the muzzle 5/8-24" for muzzle devices.
- 22" is fine
- 1:10 for 308 is fine.
- 5R is a type of rifling with lands having more gentle slopes towards grooves than conventional rifling which is steeper. Odd number of lands supposedly has less bullet deformation because there is no opposing land on the opposite side that "squeezes" the bullet as it travels down the bore. Gentler slope + odd number = less bullet deformation than 6 land/groove rifling.

Echo previous posts about just going with a different receiver. Since you're not a gunsmith and I assume you'll send the receiver out for work done, the amount of time and labor costs used to modify that receiver will probably exceed the cost of just buying a brand new 700SA action from Brownells. Better yet, you could buy one of the custom actions (that are R700 chassis and trigger compatible) that are currently on sale that uses Savage style prefits which gives you a larger amount of options for shouldered prefits without using a barrel nut.

Thank you!!! And yeah I'm sensing a theme... buy a new gun. But I'm stubborn I was not going to have the bottom opened up and was just going to use it as a single shot rifle. Aside from that... is it mandatory to send the receiver out for work/blueprinting (I think I barely understand what that is) etc? I was hoping (see thread title for disclaimer) I could slap a rem-age barrel on and obviate the need for a gunsmith at all. Pipe dream!

You mentioned the other barrel contours (M24, MTU [I don't know what this means!], Palmas). I had assumed that these were all about tradeoffs in weight vs stiffness. I just kind of picked the bull sporter at random as a tradeoff figuring it wouldn't be stupid heavy. So let me ask another dumb question - given that I'm not carrying the rifle a lot, do any of the other options you mention bring any advantage besides weight? Why wouldn't I just want the thickest wall (and therefore heaviest) barrel? (Heavy Varmint??) At some point does the weight cause droop over the length of the barrel? (These are the choices)

 

[spife7980]

I do have a standard .308 bolt (I believe the bolt face is .470?? I could double check it but I don't know where to measure it)
Thank you!!! And yeah I'm sensing a theme... buy a new gun. But I'm stubborn I was not going to have the bottom opened up and was just going to use it as a single shot rifle. Aside from that... is it mandatory to send the receiver out for work/blueprinting (I think I barely understand what that is) etc? I was hoping (see thread title for disclaimer) I could slap a rem-age barrel on and obviate the need for a gunsmith at all. Pipe dream!

To measure your bolt face diameter you can get your calipers out and using the inside measuring jaws just get the diameter of the recess the case head sits down inside. You don’t have to be perfect, within 5-10 thousandths will be indicative enough. You can also just see if you can slip a 308/6.5/243 etc in under the extractor and press it against the bolt face and see if it’s fits nicely if you don’t have calipers (but you should get a pair because they can be had cheap and they are useful).

Factory rem700 a don’t have a consistent distance from the bolt face to the action face so using a remage allows you to use a go gauge (depth gauge basically) to insert into the chamber so that when you screw the barrel into the action it will stop it at the correct location and you don’t have it screwed it too far or not enough.

I wouldn’t bother truing/blueprinting it. Money can be better spent elsewhere.

The .715 is extra clearance for the m16 extractors tha but it won’t hurt to order it like that for a rem clip extractor either.

5 groove vs 6 groove will be personal preference and you won’t be able to tell a difference without a bore scope. It’s not critical at all.

 

[Evintos]

Blueprinting is basically machining the various surfaces of the bolt and receiver to ensure everything is straight, square, concentric so that there is as little misalignment between the bolt, receiver and barrel (when installed) as possible. If the receiver and bolt was machined properly from the factory, blueprinting will gain you nothing.

So if you're not needing machining work, then yeah, generally all you would need is a Rem-age barrel, torque wrench, action wrench, barrel vice, barrel nut wrench, and headspace gauges.

You can have the .715" counter bore for both and if in the future (assuming the barrel isn't burnt out) you want to machine the bolt for an M16 style extractor, you wouldn't have to also get the counter bore machined on the barrel.

 

[shootstraight]

Heck, why not go with an M24 profile? Is it difficult to find stocks to fit? If it's good enough for the United States Army...

 

[spife7980]

Heck, why not go with an M24 profile? If it's good enough for the United States Army...

If you are using it for long range shooting and not carrying it very far at all then that would be my minimum contour preference. I like em chonky so basically all of mine are that size or bigger. Only my deer rifles and lightweight ar15 have smaller.

Something .715 or larger at the muzzle shoulder for a good brake/silencer mate up.

 

[shootstraight]

If you are using it for long range shooting and not carrying it very far at all then that would be my minimum contour preference. I like em chonky so basically all of mine are that size or bigger. Only my deer rifles and lightweight ar15 have smaller.

Something .715 or larger at the muzzle shoulder for a good brake/silencer mate up.

Thanks!
Why is this? Barrel harmonics?

What's heavier? Just the Varmint barrels?

What's the difference between the Savage Bull and Savage Big Bull (both say 1.062 / 4 / 1.000)? Both look the same here ( https://www.x-caliber.net/contours ) #25 and #29

 

[Evintos]

Heck, why not go with an M24 profile? Is it difficult to find stocks to fit? If it's good enough for the United States Army...

Basically when it comes to selecting barrel contours, the major factors would be total weight, weight balance, heat sink capacity and stiffness.

Stiffness isn't something that a lot of people worry about for a lot of these heavy profile barrels unless they're putting a heavy suppressor on the front in which case you want a stiffer barrel simply to have less deflection (less point of impact shift).

The thicker the barrel the larger the heat sink capacity (typically means you can fire more rounds before barrel gets hot) and while you can sort of figure out which barrel is pretty thick by total overall weight, the profile plays a role in where the thickness lies and how that corresponding weight is distributed.

The more the material is concentrated towards the chamber (either due to profile or barrel length), the lighter the front end will be. Depending on barrel length since longer barrels act as a lever. This can be a positive or negative depending on your uses. Now even if you won't be carrying the rifle a lot, an excessively light or heavy front end of the rifle may affect your offhand shooting (should you choose to shoot offhand).

In the picture below, the example of similar weights but different barrel lengths and profiles would be the M24 profile at 26" barrel length with a weight of 6.35lbs compared to a Heavy Palma profile at 30" barrel length and weight of 6.30lbs. Similar total weight but different in the balance. Also note how both of them transitions to a muzzle diameter of 0.90" but the M24 contour tapers more gradually than the Heavy Palma.

Most modern chassis and stocks will fit a M24 profile.

If you want the heaviest of the heavy barrels, you get a straight contour. It will not taper at all. Whatever diameter it is at the chamber will be the diameter of the barrel at the muzzle.

Edit - for the Xcaliber profile there is no difference between the Savage Bull and Big Bull for the Remington barrels. Basically #22-29 are all the same

 

[spife7980]

Thanks!
Why is this? Barrel harmonics?

What's heavier? Just the Varmint barrels?

What's the difference between the Savage Bull and Savage Big Bull (both say 1.062 / 4 / 1.000)? Both look the same here ( https://www.x-caliber.net/contours ) #25 and #29

The heavier the mass the more it mitigates recoil, force equals mass times acceleration so the more mass the less that forces accelerates and recoils into you. Takes longer to heat up and warp etc. Just simply make it easier to shoot.

The difference between the normal vs big is what savage calls small shank and large shank for their actions. If you look at the savage sections 22-25 are under the small and 26-29 are under the large.
And since they basically keep the contouring the same aside from the thread to fit the action I assume it’s just a carry over to make the contouring operation universal before it goes for the specific action threading. The Remington can use whichever’s nut contour and then get its specific cut.

 

[shootstraight]

Thanks again for the explanations. Is there a point of diminishing returns (aside from increasing the overall weight and the gun gets to be a bear to carry)? For example, it gets so heavy it starts to droop at the muzzle?

 

[spife7980]

There can be, it’ll all sort of depend on what you’re willing to accept. M24 would be a great first heavy barrel.

 

[Evintos]

Thanks again for the explanations. Is there a point of diminishing returns (aside from increasing the overall weight and the gun gets to be a bear to carry)? For example, it gets so heavy it starts to droop at the muzzle?

Yes it can get so heavy at the front it droops at the muzzle but that depends on the barrel profile and length.

I can't think of a good example right now other than a piece of lumber. Think of a 2in x 4in x 8ft piece of lumber held on one end. It will bend slightly downwards as you reach the far end (the top surface of the far end will be lower than the top surface of the end that is being held). Chop that piece in half to 4ft long and you have less of a bend. Chop that even more and you will have no bend. Thickness and width of the piece hasn't changed, the length did. The shorter length allowed the end you're holding to resist the leverage effect. Now if the piece lumber has a taper where the far end is thinner than the near end (end you're holding), the far end weighing less has less of a leverage effect.

Now what that actual stiffness limit is when you factor in length and profile, no clue. In most barrel lengths for the 308win caliber with these heavy barrel profiles, it's most likely not a factor at all. Hence my previous statement about people generally not taking it into consideration unless adding a heavy suppressor (which acts as an item inducing leverage and can weigh more than 16oz).

M24 for sure as a great first heavy barrel as it leaves a thick chamber end and gradually tapers towards the muzzle. That thick chamber end resists the leverage effect that could happen when you go with an excessively long barrel (22in is no where near excessive).