Eccentricity of Berger 109 Hybrid

[Changed]

Have any of you noticed runout on the 109 Hybrid?

Have any of you received 109s to test from Berger? If so could you share your lot numbers?

I have heard numerous reports from shooters that they could not get the 109 to run accurately. I am trying to asses issues found in my lot of projectiles P01786.

 

[phlegethon]

Have any of you noticed runout on the 109 Hybrid?

How would one even measure this accurately?

 

[Changed]

How would one even measure this accurately?

It can be measured with an indicator. As an alternative you can get reading from a calipers.

 

[phlegethon]

It can be measured with an indicator. As an alternative you can get reading from a calipers.

I don’t think the indicators I’ve seen would be able to reliably measure something that small, and calipers measure distance, not runout. Also, I’ve never heard of anyone measuring bullet runout. Why not just load them and see what they do on paper?

 

[salks]

My first lot number was PT0181 500ct. box. I had trouble with them kinda struggled through the box. I really like Berger bullets but I was disappointed in them. Never really put my finger on it. Long story short I gave the 109 another try bought a box of 100 lot# P02190. After shooting them I was able to grab 2 more 100ct. boxes same lot. Been like night and day difference the new ones shoot fantastic. Verified BC .312 in my gun. Are you saying in more lay mans terms they are out of round?

 

[Changed]

I don’t think the indicators I’ve seen would be able to reliably measure something that small, and calipers measure distance, not runout. Also, I’ve never heard of anyone measuring bullet runout. Why not just load them and see what they do on paper?

Do you have a veneer caliper that is of any reasonable quality? What about a concentricity tool? Both are capable of measuring to the half thousandths. Both were used.

 

[Changed]

My first lot number was PT0181 500ct. box. I had trouble with them kinda struggled through the box. I really like Berger bullets but I was disappointed in them. Never really put my finger on it. Long story short I gave the 109 another try bought a box of 100 lot# P02190. After shooting them I was able to grab 2 more 100ct. boxes same lot. Been like night and day difference the new ones shoot fantastic. Verified BC .312 in my gun. Are you saying in more lay mans terms they are out of round?

Thank you, Yes. I am saying that a high percentage is out of round. The lot I am discussing is older. Personally, I have not heard of a recall or anything of that nature, but there is a problem.

What I am curious about is if Berger was sending bullets out for testing, and individuals were selling those.

After the 109 came to market people flocked to them. Then suddenly thousands of 109's were sold on the secondary market. I have had discussions with a few individuals about this. All claim that it was difficult to get these projectiles to shoot. Most went back to 105's.

Again, not here to stir the shit, but I'd like to know what others are experiencing.

 

[phlegethon]

Do you have a veneer caliper that is of any reasonable quality? What about a concentricity tool? Both are capable of measuring to the half thousandths. Both were used.

I have no idea how a caliper or a micrometer (which I assume is what you mean by vernier caliper), which measures linear distance, can be used to measure the roundness of an object. Are you trying to measure diameters at different angles? How would you know you aren’t introducing error by moving the bullets around during this process? As for concentricity tools, yes, the dial indicators have fine gradations, but again there is more to measurement than that. It is easy to move objects while rotating them and give false readings of runout. To be honest, given the tolerances of these bullets, if you think you are seeing runout that you can measure with your tools, I think it’s overwhelmingly likely that it’s due to artifact from your measuring process. Again, I’ve never heard of anyone trying to measure bullet runout and I think there’s a good reason why.

 

[salks]

I just checked 10 or so in my current lot with a 0-1 mic all with in .0001. Yes I know how to use one... Yea I know some real good shooters who turned away from them.

 

[salks]

I have no idea how a caliper or a micrometer (which I assume is what you mean by vernier caliper), which measures linear distance, can be used to measure the roundness of an object. Are you trying to measure diameters at different angles? How would you know you aren’t introducing error by moving the bullets around during this process? As for concentricity tools, yes, the dial indicators have fine gradations, but again there is more to measurement than that. It is easy to move objects while rotating them and give false readings of runout. To be honest, given the tolerances of these bullets, if you think you are seeing runout that you can measure with your tools, I think it’s overwhelmingly likely that it’s due to artifact from your measuring process. Again, I’ve never heard of anyone trying to measure bullet runout and I think there’s a good reason why.

Measure diameter, rotate, measure diameter, rotate, measure diameter. Think of measuring the diameter of an ellip.se

 

[Changed]

I have no idea how a caliper or a micrometer (which I assume is what you mean by vernier caliper), which measures linear distance, can be used to measure the roundness of an object. Are you trying to measure diameters at different angles? How would you know you aren’t introducing error by moving the bullets around during this process? As for concentricity tools, yes, the dial indicators have fine gradations, but again there is more to measurement than that. It is easy to move objects while rotating them and give false readings of runout. To be honest, given the tolerances of these bullets, if you think you are seeing runout that you can measure with your tools, I think it’s overwhelmingly likely that it’s due to artifact from your measuring process. Again, I’ve never heard of anyone trying to measure bullet runout and I think there’s a good reason why.

Thank you for that information. We did not use a micrometer. A vernier caliper is a different tool. You can use Vernier calipers for rough/general measurements.

While these tools are not infallible, they are reliable. Also, as an aside, if I can measure bullet runout on a concentricity tool, and see 0.001-0.002 on different cases (a widely acceptable practice), what makes you think we cannot use a dial indicator used to measure projectiles.

Historically, machinists measure round surfaces with an indicator while placed V-Blocks

Again, I appreciate your input.

 

[Olen_4504]

this is interesting.... I am one of those (along with a HANDFUL of others who got the 109s pretty early on and quickly ditched them) they weren't HORRIBLE...they just weren't shooting as well as the 105s. and it wasn't worth the significant price difference.

while a few other guys I know absolutely Love them.

I don't think anyone had starting recording and comparing lots that everyone was using.

 

[Patty]

I received a box at the 2019 finale to try. They shot well for me so I ordered 500, I believe it was lot 1786. I struggled with them, would have fliers at 700 yards .5-1 mil high. Had a match where I had about 25 of those, spoke with a few other shooters who experienced similar things and swore them off, went back to the 105 and things have been normal. I know people who love them, but it seems to be split fairly evenly between experiences like mine and people with no issues.

 

[Tokay444]

Do you have a veneer caliper that is of any reasonable quality? What about a concentricity tool? Both are capable of measuring to the half thousandths. Both were used.

A vernier caliper is not capable of measuring to the half thou. Even the best digital caliper is only accurate to +/-.002”.

 

[Olen_4504]

if it helps - the lot I shot and sold part of was P01871

however - the guy who bought them from me used them in his 6br (same caliber I was using them in) and had no issues. so who knows.

but figured I'd put another lot# out there.

 

[salks]

A vernier caliper is not capable of measuring to the half thou. Even the best digital caliper is only accurate to +/-.002”.

If you know how to use one it's plenty accurate.

 

[Tokay444]

If you know how to use one it's plenty accurate.

If you buy one worth the box it came in, it comes with a calibration certificate, and that will tell you everything you don’t seem to know.
To measure accurately to the thou, you need something that resolves at minimum, to the tenth. To measure accurately to half a thought, you need something thing that resolves to a minimum of 50 millionths.

 

[salks]

The 109

If you buy one worth the box it came in, it comes with a calibration certificate, and that will tell you everything you don’t seem to know.
To measure accurately to the thou, you need something that resolves at minimum, to the tenth. To measure accurately to half a thought, you need something thing that resolves to a minimum of 50 millionths.

I made my living for 22 years as a precision tool and die grinder. I know.

 

[salks]

My first box of 109's was a mystery same issues never figured it out. good, good, good, WTF. Wish I still had some to check. I am glad I gave them another try they shooting great nothing else changed but having a different lot of bullets.

 

[Tokay444]

I made my living for 20 years as an aerospace machinist and for the last 7 have been an Applications Engineer for one of the largest machine tool manufacturers on the globe. Nothing I’ve said is not factual and I know you know this.
You might actually think you can use a vernier caliper to accurately and repeatably measure to half a thou, but the calibration sheet from the manufacturer says you can’t.

 

[salks]

I made my living for 20 years as an aerospace machinist and for the last 7 have been an Applications Engineer for one of the largest machine tool manufacturers on the globe. Nothing I’ve said is not factual and I know you know this.
You might actually think you can use a vernier caliper to accurately and repeatably measure to half a thou, but the calibration sheet from the manufacturer says you can’t.

Well to be able to tell if something is .0005 out of round yes. Think about man even if your not getting the correct size you can tell if one side is bigger than the other with a caliper.

 

[Tokay444]

I will not indulge this any longer. A Vernier caliper is not the correct tool for the job.

 

[Dthomas3523]

Glad to see someone is at least attempting to collect data or logically explain why they don’t like something.

I don’t want to be such a skeptic, but I have seen exactly zero hard data to back up why someone doesn’t like the 109 (or most any bullet).

Just a lot of “it did weird things.”

 

[Dthomas3523]

I’ve been using 109’s over a year and have run 4 or 5 different lots. Haven’t had any negative experience with them as of yet.

 

[308pirate]

As an alternative you can get reading from a calipers.

You can get a reading, it won't be either runout nor concentricity.

 

[47guy]

While I have not shot as many 109s as @Dthomas3523 has I have shot at least a couple thousand and have not had any explainable issues.

11 rounds at 100yds

3/4 IPSC...5 in the head at 714yds.

these are from lot# 1786 which i believe someone said they had issues with...and to add to that these are all loaded on a dillon 750 and had a 35fps ES when i checked at the 100yd target.

 

[Dthomas3523]

Calipers definitely not a tool to use here. Anyone thinking you can accurately get a measurement to .0005” with them is kidding themselves. You can induce more than that just with varying pressure slightly on calipers.

 

[Dthomas3523]

 

[Changed]

A vernier caliper is not capable of measuring to the half thou. Even the best digital caliper is only accurate to +/-.002”.

Hmm, Most calipers are repeatable to 0.0005. No one would use them if the

I made my living for 20 years as an aerospace machinist and for the last 7 have been an Applications Engineer for one of the largest machine tool manufacturers on the globe. Nothing I’ve said is not factual and I know you know this.
You might actually think you can use a vernier caliper to accurately and repeatably measure to half a thou, but the calibration sheet from the manufacturer says you can’t.

Thanks for your input. Tokay. Have a great day.

My question, since it is not my field, is how is it that we use vernier calipers to measure things. For example, when bumping brass, I can measure the total bump with calipers. If I understand your point, it is possible to measure a difference between a sized and unsized case. But, it's not possible to quantify that as reliable measurement.

In any event, thanks for contributing.

 

[Dthomas3523]

Hmm, Most calipers are repeatable to 0.0005. No one would use them if the


Thanks for your input. Tokay. Have a great day.

My question, since it is not my field, is how is it that we use vernier calipers to measure things. For example, when bumping brass, I can measure the total bump with calipers. If I understand your point, it is possible to measure a difference between a sized and unsized case. But, it's not possible to quantify that as reliable measurement.

In any event, thanks for contributing.

No one who knows what they are doing uses calipers for .0005”. Those who do are using the tool incorrectly.

You can literally induce more error than that with the same piece of anything you’re measuring with very little pressure change. And as already pointed out, no manufacturer will even certify them less than .001.

If you were to base results on anything down to .0005 and cited that you used calipers, your data would literally be empirically worthless.

 

[phlegethon]

Hmm, Most calipers are repeatable to 0.0005.

No, this is totally wrong. Calipers that read to 0.0005" are only accurate to 0.001" UNDER THE VERY MOST OPTIMAL CIRCUMSTANCES. See this for more:

https://www.mitutoyo.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/15003A.pdf

As for shoulder bump, the margin of error is definitely going to be around 0.002" for most people.

 

[Changed]

I received a box at the 2019 finale to try. They shot well for me so I ordered 500, I believe it was lot 1786. I struggled with them, would have fliers at 700 yards .5-1 mil high. Had a match where I had about 25 of those, spoke with a few other shooters who experienced similar things and swore them off, went back to the 105 and things have been normal. I know people who love them, but it seems to be split fairly evenly between experiences like mine and people with no issues.

So, I did not want to name the specific lot, but the lot I have is P01786.

 

[Changed]

No, this is totally wrong. Calipers that read to 0.0005" are only accurate to 0.001" UNDER THE VERY MOST OPTIMAL CIRCUMSTANCES. See this for more:

https://www.mitutoyo.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/15003A.pdf

As for shoulder bump, the margin of error is definitely going to be around 0.002" for most people.

Thank you, Sir. So, as not to explode my head, might you be able to explain why the caliper is a viable tool for measuring brass when bumping the shoulders back (while full length sizing).

 

[Dthomas3523]

I don’t believe I’ve tried that lot.

If anyone has several hundred of that lot, I’ll buy them from you and see if the performance matches mine with other lots.

 

[Changed]

Glad to see someone is at least attempting to collect data or logically explain why they don’t like something.

I don’t want to be such a skeptic, but I have seen exactly zero hard data to back up why someone doesn’t like the 109 (or most any bullet).

Just a lot of “it did weird things.”

Thank you, David. Again, every time I see 109's for sale, I poll the individuals (via PM). All say they have seen erratic behavior from the projectile, and they can not quite put their finger on it.

Calipers definitely not a tool to use here. Anyone thinking you can accurately get a measurement to .0005” with them is kidding themselves. You can induce more than that just with varying pressure slightly on calipers.

Yes, I have experienced this. I know that micrometers are the most reliable method for measuring. Unfortunately, I do not have a pair that will work for this task.

No one who knows what they are doing uses calipers for .0005”. Those who do are using the tool incorrectly.

You can literally induce more error than that with the same piece of anything you’re measuring with very little pressure change. And as already pointed out, no manufacturer will even certify them less than .001.

If you were to base results on anything down to .0005 and cited that you used calipers, your data would literally be empirically worthless.

Based on your statement, and that of others, I will certainly agree with you here. Again, I appreciate your input. Have a great day.

 

[Dthomas3523]

Thank you, Sir. So, as not to explode my head, might you be able to explain why the caliper is a viable tool for measuring brass when bumping the shoulders back (while full length sizing).

Because you shouldn’t be considering .0005 when measuring shoulder bump.

Even when you say you’re bumping the shoulder .002 (or whatever), you may be bumping .001 or .004 in reality. Your .002 is just a number to compare and is only good for that caliper + that comparator tool. It’s not actually a perfect measurement/representation of the actual linear measurement your shoulders were bumped.

If it was an actual measurement, you would be able to take 6 different calipers with 6 different comparators, mix and match them in every combination and get the same measurement everytime.

 

[Changed]

I don’t believe I’ve tried that lot.

If anyone has several hundred of that lot, I’ll buy them from you and see if the performance matches mine with other lots.

Awful nice of you, but that's not necessary. I've sent some to Berger HQ for examination. Before this thread devolved into a measuring contest (Pun Intended), what I really wanted to know is if people may have received test lots from Berger. Or, maybe Berger gave them away at matches for testing.

Again, I shoot 105 Hybrids with the best reliability and accuracy. I run Bergers in every other rifle I own. I am not trashing them, just looking for data to help me understand what I am noticing.

As an aside, I want to thank you for your contributions to this site. Your comments are always on point, and you have provided a wealth of data.

 

[Changed]

Because you shouldn’t be considering .0005 when measuring shoulder bump.

Even when you say you’re bumping the shoulder .002 (or whatever), you may be bumping .001 or .004 in reality. Your .002 is just a number to compare and is only good for that caliper + that comparator tool. It’s not actually a perfect measurement/representation of the actual linear measurement your shoulders were bumped.

If it was an actual measurement, you would be able to take 6 different calipers with 6 different comparators, mix and match them in every combination and get the same measurement everytime.

Perfect! You summed that up perfectly.

As an aside, I suppose the ideal way to demonstrate the issue might be to use a precision reamed hole.

 

[Dthomas3523]

Awful nice of you, but that's not necessary. I've sent some to Berger HQ for examination. Before this thread devolved into a measuring contest (Pun Intended), what I really wanted to know is if people may have received test lots from Berger. Or, maybe Berger gave them away at matches for testing.

Again, I shoot 105 Hybrids with the best reliability and accuracy. I run Bergers in every other rifle I own. I am not trashing them, just looking for data to help me understand what I am noticing.

As an aside, I want to thank you for your contributions to this site. Your comments are always on point, and you have provided a wealth of data.

I’m definitely not suggesting anyone isn’t having problems. I just haven’t had any myself. Though I’ve been on the other end of things when I’ve had problems and other people haven’t.

 

[Milo 2.5]

Perfect! You summed that up perfectly.

As an aside, I suppose the ideal way to demonstrate the issue might be to use a precision reamed hole.

I think finding the right tool for the job would be the answer, I have no clue what that would be, lol
I do know this, bullet dies wear out, and the numbers of bullets in a single lot is huge. They are made rather quickly, so a fair share of out of spec bullets can be produced in a short period of time. Hence the blem sales, though I have never seen Berger blems for sale.

 

[308pirate]

There is just absolutely no way that anyone who understands what runout and concentricity are would ever suggest using a caliper (or a micrometer for that matter) to measure those two GEOMETRIC tolerances.

OP says he used "an indicator" to measure bullet runout.

Well, post your data and a picture of your setup.

Manufacturing pros like @Tokay444 and I can judge that

BTW, all those "bullet concentricity" jigs that you can buy at Sinclair/Brownells do not measure concentricity unless the part you're measuring is perfectly round (circularity = 0) because runout = concentricity + circularity. LOL nobody who buys those gages to check bullets can account for circularity.

 

[Changed]

So, to throw wrench in this thread, assuming there are issues. What are the most likely culprits? My theory is that the pointing process is bulging the jacket,

There is just absolutely no way that anyone who understands what runout and concentricity are would ever suggest using a caliper (or a micrometer for that matter) to measure those two GEOMETRIC tolerances.

OP says he used "an indicator" to measure bullet runout.

Well, post your data and a picture of your setup.

Manufacturing pros like @Tokay444 and I can judge that

BTW, all those "bullet concentricity" jigs that you can buy at Sinclair/Brownells do not measure concentricity unless the part you're measuring is perfectly round (circularity = 0) because runout = concentricity + circularity. LOL nobody who buys those gages to check bullets can account for circularity.

We are diving into the minutia of measuring insterments. That was not the purpose of my post. I'm not an engineer.

Let's take the word "Measure" out of the equation. If I have a pair of calipers and I use them to take a reading on a wire, then take a reading on another wire and notice a difference, are they actually different?

If I take a reading on a 6mm projectile, on the bearing surface, even with calipers and compare that with a different reading and there is a difference, are they actually different?


When measuring the ID of a tube, a telescoping gauge can be used. Then a micrometer is used to measure the length of the gauge. The ends of the gauge are round. How does this work? Well, the apex of the curve is the highest point. Is this not what we are doing with calipers? Again, recognizing that they are not as precise.

If take a reading on a piece of paper with calipers, and the reading is 0.002. I recognize there could be error. If I take a reading on two sheets of paper, I know it's thicker than a single sheet. I also understand that there are potential errors. However, there is a perceivable difference.

How do gunsmiths check the thread spec on a muzzle? They use gauge pins. Those pins are round.

 

[Tokay444]

Depends how big the difference is. If it's bigger than .002", you can be fairly sure they're different. If you think they look .0005" with a caliper, then you need a different instrument to verify.
The answer is 100% they're different as nothing is ever exactly the same.

 

[308pirate]

So, to throw wrench in this thread, assuming there are issues. What are the most likely culprits? My theory is that the pointing process is bulging the jacket,


We are diving into the minutia of measuring insterments. That was not the purpose of my post. I'm not an engineer.

Let's take the word "Measure" out of the equation. If I have a pair of calipers and I use them to take a reading on a wire, then take a reading on another wire and notice a difference, are they actually different?

If I take a reading on a 6mm projectile, on the bearing surface, even with calipers and compare that with a different reading and there is a difference, are they actually different?

If take a reading on a piece of paper with calipers, and the reading is 0.002. I recognize there could be error. If I take a reading on two sheets of paper, I know it's thicker than a single sheet. I also understand that there are potential errors. However, there is a perceivable difference.

I'm not going to engage in speculation with you. I also don't have enough time in my day to educate you on all the things that you don't know about measurement and even worse try to correct the things you think you know but you don't

How do gunsmiths check the thread spec on a muzzle? They use gauge pins. Those pins are round.

LOL that's an approximation to check pitch diameter. There's a hell of a lot more to checking a thread correctly and completely. If you want a hack job, leave your rifle with a guy who checks threads only using the diameter over pins.

If you want it done right, leave your rifle with the guy who uses go/no-go ring gages qualified to a NIST standard.

I'm off this thread because it's just another pointless discussion with someone who wants to be right and not someone open to learning

 

[phlegethon]

My theory is that the pointing process is bulging the jacket,

I would find this hard to believe, given how well these bullets are working for so many people.

We are diving into the minutia of measuring insterments. That was not the purpose of my post. I'm not an engineer.

You didn't know that was the purpose of your post, but your post was about measuring a very small thing, and that's a more complicated task than you may have thought.

Let's take the word "Measure" out of the equation. If I have a pair of calipers and I use them to take a reading on a wire, then take a reading on another wire and notice a difference, are they actually different?

If I take a reading on a 6mm projectile, on the bearing surface, even with calipers and compare that with a different reading and there is a difference, are they actually different?

Yeah, the answer is that you don't know. Maybe there is a difference. Maybe not. That is not an adequate instrument to tell you.

 

[308pirate]

If it was an actual measurement, you would be able to take 6 different calipers with 6 different comparators, mix and match them in every combination and get the same measurement everytime.

You won't even get that.

What you'll get is what percent of the measurement's tolerance is eaten away by instrument repeatability and by user reproducibility; aka Gage R & R aka Measurement System Analysis

Reloading measurement is yet another area where the gun world is full of misinformation, misunderstanding, and general ignorance.

I've had people on here argue to me that runout is twice the total indicator reading and refuse to listen to any explanation why they're wrong even when one brings up authoritative references like ASME Y14.5...……...I don't know what to say to that. It's not like that's part of what I have done for a living for over 25 years..............

 

[salks]

Uhg.. This is making my head explode. The best way I know to check one would be to chuck it up and indicate it in end to end splitting any highs and lows. But I think we can say if we check the o.d. of the bearing surface on the bullet and there is a .0005 difference there would be an indication that something was wrong. especially when others check perfectly round.

 

[Patty]

This is a really great thread about calipers.

 

[Changed]

I would find this hard to believe, given how well these bullets are working for so many people.


You didn't know that was the purpose of your post, but your post was about measuring a very small thing, and that's a more complicated task than you may have thought.


Yeah, the answer is that you don't know. Maybe there is a difference. Maybe not. That is not an adequate instrument to tell you.

Well, they didn't work for everyone, especially when they first came out. People were selling them by the thousand. I've had several first hand reports.

Let me rephrase, the purpose of my post was not to start a pissing match over measurements. I don't need a masters level education in how to measure things. I only asked if anyone had noticed issues.

I'm not interested in acquiring instruments to "measure" them. I know when I don't know something...LOL.

 

[Changed]

This is a really great thread about calipers.

Thank you!