Effective kill range

[paulL01]

Beyond 1,000 yrds naturally. I am wandering about the
effectiveness of 300WSM,260,280AI,25-06,30-06,and
the 7mm class. Which would be most effective for say
coyotes? Part of the reason I ask is because a 260really will
surely get to past 1k as will many others. And thats great for
targets. But what about when it really counts? I should
amend my original statement to include other beasts than
just coyote......what Im not sure lol, but ya catch my drift...

 

[Temp9]

Re: Effective kill range

There's not really an easy answer for this. We can get a rough estimate by using something like the Taylor KO Formula (eq. courtesy Wiki):

If we assume a subsonic .22lr at the muzzle is the threshold for reasonable lethality (even a .22 short is very lethal, but just for the sake of comparison...), we get a TKO factor of 1.33.

Let's look at the case of a 115gr .243 bullet with a MV of 2850fps, just because I already have the ballistics data up for that particular cartridge (6XC). Using a TKO factor of 1.33, the bullet would only have to be going 330fps to match the lethality of a .22lr at the muzzle(which, of course, is very lethal).

At 2734 yards, the max distance of my ballistics program, the bullet is chugging along at 823fps. It has a TKO factor of 3.29, almost 150% higher than needed.

Now, this is a 6mm bullet. You're asking about much larger bullets, with much more mass and higher BC's. I think it's safe to say the bullets remain lethal much farther that they're capable of connecting with any consistency.

And of course, you could recalculate this with kinetic energy or momentum or penetration at the specified distance or expansion at the specified distance and so on and so forth. This is just one attempt at quantifying what's bouncing around my head.

 

[paulL01]

Re: Effective kill range

Wow. Thats a great reply. I reckon it reasonably safe to
assume that the bigger bullets i.e. 300WSM, -06's will
naturally be more effective for penetration,knock down
kinetic energy etc......at distances of 1k or more.....
I want to thank you again for taking the time to explain and
for the scientific data as well. I certainly appreciate the effort

 

[Jimmym40a2]

Re: Effective kill range

Its just like real estate. Location,Location,Location. If you hit in the vitals they are going down.

 

[paulL01]

Re: Effective kill range

Its just like real estate. Location,Location,Location. If you hit in the vitals they are going down. [/quot

That's exactly the conclusion Ive came too.
Bullet placement is paramount.

 

[paulL01]

Re: Effective kill range

Im really hoping I've made a great choice in my new
FN TSR XP 300WSM. I already have a Savage FCP-SR but
wanted something bigger to have as well.
It was a tough decision though between that and the
SPR model FN offers.

 

[supersniper]

Re: Effective kill range

Just run some numbers thru JBM and find out what the energy levels are. The 260 still hits harder than the 308 at 1000yds.

 

[RobertB]

Re: Effective kill range

I've always heard 700 #ft of energy is the lowest most feel is acceptable. I've been wondering about my .260 and how far its good for deer. Onlt long shot I've ever dealt with on a deer was 420 yds with a swift scirracco out of a 300WM. It was more than deadly. Crazy energy. THinking about using my 260 this year. Killed deer at 250 with it but was wondering about how it would do at say...400 yds. Not trying to hijack but felt the op was wondering the same thing. Thanks

 

[Temp9]

Re: Effective kill range

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: paulL01</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Wow. Thats a great reply. I reckon it reasonably safe to
assume that the bigger bullets i.e. 300WSM, -06's will
naturally be more effective for penetration,knock down
kinetic energy etc......at distances of 1k or more.....
I want to thank you again for taking the time to explain and
for the scientific data as well. I certainly appreciate the effort </div></div>

You're welcome. All things equal, the heavier bullets should retain more energy at range. Be careful, though, the BC's on many hunting bullets suck, meaning they can get awfully slow at distance. In terms of good, humane kills on game, know what your capabilities are. Like others said, shot placement is critical, especially at distances where the bullet may not expand or otherwise perform as expected. If I recall, there's a whole forum dedicated to long range hunting. Most shooters here only worry about external (flight) ballistics, but when developing a long range hunting cartridge, you absolutely have to maximize your terminal ballistic performance to ensure a clean kill.

The purpose of my post, though, is to say that lethality of a bullet exists at far greater ranges than even the best shooters are capable of hitting. The maximum range that many would consider to be humane will be much shorter. To state the obvious, don't attempt a long range shot on an animal unless you know for sure you and your bullet will kill it quickly and humanely.

 

[paulL01]

Re: Effective kill range

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: supersniper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Just run some numbers thru JBM and find out what the energy levels are. The 260 still hits harder than the 308 at 1000yds. </div></div>

True. But the 308 is a bigger bullet prone to do more damage right?
Either way bullet placement is key I reckon

 

[Jaxdialation]

Re: Effective kill range

there is a report on a bear hunt with George Gardner posted here . The author used a 260 to kill a brown bear. The distance wasn't great but I think it pretty much proves the 260.

 

[paulL01]

Re: Effective kill range

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jAXDIALATION</div><div class="ubbcode-body">there is a report on a bear hunt with George Gardner posted here . The author used a 260 to kill a brown bear. The distance wasn't great but I think it pretty much proves the 260. </div></div>

I aim to have a 260 one fine day

 

[Cmonroe]

Re: Effective kill range

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: paulL01</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: supersniper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Just run some numbers thru JBM and find out what the energy levels are. The 260 still hits harder than the 308 at 1000yds. </div></div>

True. But the 308 is a bigger bullet prone to do more damage right?
Either way bullet placement is key I reckon </div></div>

Ok, in most cases a 260 rem will pass a 308 on retained energy around 600 meters. At extreme distance assuming a 308 would have better terminal performance because of its larger diameter is also problematic. Here's why, the two things needed are wound path (penetration) and trauma. With it's larger diameter, less retained energy and slower speed the 308 will not penetrate as deep or expand as well as the 260 considering bullet selection was common.

 

[paulL01]

Re: Effective kill range

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Cmonroe</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: paulL01</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: supersniper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Just run some numbers thru JBM and find out what the energy levels are. The 260 still hits harder than the 308 at 1000yds. </div></div>

True. But the 308 is a bigger bullet prone to do more damage right?
Either way bullet placement is key I reckon </div></div>

Ok, in most cases a 260 rem will pass a 308 on retained energy around 600 meters. At extreme distance assuming a 308 would have better terminal performance because of its larger diameter is also problematic. Here's why, the two things needed are wound path (penetration) and trauma. With it's larger diameter, less retained energy and slower speed the 308 will not penetrate as deep or expand as well as the 260 considering bullet selection was common. </div></div>

Cool.

 

[Twitch2120]

Re: Effective kill range

anyone try the barnes LRX bullets? they have similar BC to match bullets.

 

[beretta989]

Re: Effective kill range

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[Greg Langelius *]

Re: Effective kill range

My impression is that most good hunting loads are effective beyond the shooter's ability to make an acceptable shot.

While I don't personally favor longer shots, I also recognize that many here are quite capable of them, and also advocate the .260.

But my hunting Calibers are either a .44Mag 94AE carbine for woods/brush with 180gr softpoints, and a .280 Rem with 139gr SST Superformance loads for cleared zones.

I find that factory hunting ammo is quite adequate for my needs, and that by staying at the lighter end of the bullet weight spectrum, trajectories are flatter, and distance estimation becomes somewhat less rcitical.

Last year my Son-in-Eaw took a deer shooting clear across an entire vineyard at around 300yd using an older Ruger MKI .30-'06 and Rem 150gr Core-Lokts.

Greg

 

[csloop]

Re: Effective kill range

Well I have a 300wm and had a complete pass through on a 115lb doe at 1150 so I believe you will be fine with either

 

[Alaskaguide]

Re: Effective kill range

I have seen a caribou hit at 887 yards .308 175 gr@ 2698 fps punched through both sets of ribs and lodged in skin on far side.

Caribou took 30 seconds to fall over after hit

 

[Nukes]

Re: Effective kill range

None of the calculated kill or "knockdown" factors truly determine relative lethality.

Lethality requires rendering a vital zone inoperative, true whether the weapon is a pencil or a nuke.

Shot placement and penetration to the vital zone are dispositive. A larger hole offers increased probability of encountering the vital zone and a larger hole damages more of that vital zone if you hit it.

Shock waves are irrelevant in elastic soft tissue, but can contribute significant disruption to inelastic soft tissue, such as brain, liver, and bone. Shock wave stretching of the liver increases area and volume of bleed out compared to a simple icepick injury. Shockwave shattering of bone increases area and volume of bleed out compared to a simple fracture of bone. Shock wave stretching of the brain increases not only area and volume of bleed out, but also virtually instantaneous permanent disruption of neural function compared to a simple icepick injury.

While fragmentation splatter into the temporary cavity—the exact opposite of the retained weight objective of hunting bullets, but the explanation why the fragmenting 5.56 NATO FMJ projectile approximately equals the human lethality of the non-fragmenting 7.62 NATO FMJ to approx 100-200 meters depending on barrel length—increases the probability of widespread bleeding or encountering a vital zone, this is subject to so many variables that it has not been modeled for game animals (or bad guys) of widely varying sizes, constitution, and attitude.

Neither is energy dispositive. A mushroomed projectile that does not exit the body is more likely lethal than an unexpanded projectile of much greater energy that simply whistles through the body. Kokalis coined the term "high speed acupuncture" to describe that phenomenon.

Dr. Fackler's publications based on his studies for the US Army Wound Ballistics Laboratory discuss all this in detail. His journal articles are readily available.

With all deference and respect due their advocates, I suggest that lethality and "knockdown" formulas offer little, if anything, in comparing the hunting utility of the huge number of modern and obsolete cartridges that get the job done.

 

[Niles Coyote]

Re: Effective kill range

My approach is a little different and the above posters still have merit.

This is what I look for in a hunting bullet... two things, what type bullet I am shooting and what my impact velocity is.

If I am using a solid type bullet i.e., Barnes and others of similar design I want to keep my impact velocity above 2000fps, traditional bullets with lead core and copper jacket 1800fps. That is usually the lower threshold advised by the manufactures for the bullet to reliably expand. So with the bullet I am using how far out dos that get me. JBM will tell me. The bullet is still more than capable to kill with little or no expansion and a much slower speeds but the above is what I use as a guide for game hunting. That usually puts me somewhere around 450-750 yards depending on the cartridge I am using and the density altitude I am hunting at. For coyotes and other vermin... as far as I can accurately hit them where it counts. Most bullets are still going to be effective well beyond my effective range.