Effing Redding dies

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Ape_Factory

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    • May 23, 2020
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    #1
    I've been doing just fine with my Hornady custom dies but decided I wanted to try messing with neck tension outside of a neck mandrel and purchased a Redding Type S match die set with the sizing die and micrometer seating die. I bought three neck sizing bushings in titanium nitride so I could dial in 2 thousandths neck tension for various brass/bullets.

    I typically use either lanolin or Hornady One Shot. Lanolin as of late, is my go-to as it's just worked, is non-toxic and cheap. I also wash my brass between sizing and loading. Either is an absolute no-go with the Redding die. The die was so tight that I literally couldn't get a fired piece of brass to resize with either. It took so much force I knew the brass would get stuck or the table would snap!

    So I tried an already full length resized piece of brass with lanolin, alcohol flashed off, and it got stuck. Pounded it out with a punch. Did the same with Hornady One Shot. Same result. BOTH lubes work just fine in a Hornady die with very little effort.

    I pack it up and send it in to Redding with five pieces of recently fired brass. I get it back in about a week (nice turn around!) saying there's nothing wrong, they had no problem sizing the brass and to use their lube. Four of the five were resized. NONE were consistent and off a few thousandths from one and other. I can nail off a hundred with the Hornady and all are right on target. Super easy.

    They did send back a little sample of their imperial sizing die wax. Ok, I'll give it a whirl. First one, apparently not enough lube. Extremely hard to get back out of the die and I lucked out. I lube it up a bit more and it's easier this time. I start using more and more lube until it becomes "easier" for subsequent cases. The required effort is still substantially above the Hornady die, particularly on the downstroke. I am using cam over, set up like Redding's instructions dictate and I'm rotating the die to set final head space, not adjusting with the shell holders.

    I did about a dozen and final head space was all over the map. If it came in too long, I'd adjust down and re-lube the case, then push it into the die until I had the head space number I was looking for. If I did not re-lube, it'd get stuck again, no question. In fact, one did get stuck when I didn't use enough lube and I was using a lot of lube.

    If I then lubed up another case to check shoulder bump, it'd be like 6 thousandths off the previous sized die.

    My sized headspace measurements were all over the map. From 1.620 to 1.628 depending on the size of the pre-sized fired case. Must be the lube. So I stopped lubing the neck/shoulder area but the results weren't any better.

    I threw in a few fired from my AR10 which are in the 1.630+ range. Those would size down to 1.626, my target. If I then took a fired case that was 1.626 already, it'd size down to 1.618 to 1.620 with no adjustments to the die. I really don't understand this as I'm mechanically limiting the amount of bump. All brass is the exact same head stamp.

    I have the neck bushing free floating per Redding's instructions but that shouldn't affect shoulder bump. Just at a loss. I've got about $300 in the set with bushings and I'm about ready to toss it out the window.

    Any suggestions greatly appreciated.
     
    #3
    I did try it with and without a bushing from the whole "effort needed" standpoint and there was no difference. That's the first thing I did before sending it in to Redding.

    It's difficult from the moment the case inserts into the die and you can hear metal on metal despite all the lube. I haven't tried it without and using their imperial wax lube to check changes in headspace. I managed to get 8 at my target headspace and 14 came in too short. I'm literally wasting a lot of quality brass.
     
    #5
    You need to break the die in. Start with a clean die. Lube up a case. Run it into the die until you feel like it’s starting to size, then pull out. Relube that case and run it into the die a little deeper. Pull out. Relube and go in deeper. Keep doing this till the case is fully sized. Then do it again with another case. It should be good after that.
     
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    #6
    Ape_Factory said:
    I did try it with and without a bushing from the whole "effort needed" standpoint and there was no difference. That's the first thing I did before sending it in to Redding.

    It's difficult from the moment the case inserts into the die and you can hear metal on metal despite all the lube. I haven't tried it without and using their imperial wax lube to check changes in headspace. I managed to get 8 at my target headspace and 14 came in too short. I'm literally wasting a lot of quality brass.
    Click to expand...
    Bummer on that , was hoping it made some difference and help narrow things down .
     
    #7
    You didn't mention which press you were using or what brand of brass you were trying to size or how many times it was fired?

    Imperial Sizing Wax is probably considered one of the best sizing lubes out there. Run you finger across the lube the then wipe the case with it and size, I don't understand the problem.
     
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    #9
    I seem to have the best luck using a shit ton of lanolin/alchohol mix. I put the cases in a box and spray the hell out of them, let them dry then do it again. Rarely have headspace off by more than.0005 but every once in a while one will be a thou shorter. Been using them with 4 calibers.
     
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    #11
    ShtrRdy said:
    Did you clean the dies good when you got them?
    Click to expand...
    I did indeed. I'm sure Redding cleaned it when I sent it back as well.
    918v said:
    You need to break the die in. Start with a clean die. Lube up a case. Run it into the die until you feel like it’s starting to size, then pull out. Relube that case and run it into the die a little deeper. Pull out. Relube and go in deeper. Keep doing this till the case is fully sized. Then do it again with another case. It should be good after that.
    Click to expand...
    I'll try this but I'd think, after 20+ cases, it'd be broken in? But I'll start from scratch per your suggestion and report back.
    Haney said:
    Bummer on that , was hoping it made some difference and help narrow things down .
    Click to expand...
    I appreciate it Haney!
    B y r o n said:
    You didn't mention which press you were using or what brand of brass you were trying to size or how many times it was fired?

    Imperial Sizing Wax is probably considered one of the best sizing lubes out there. Run you finger across the lube the then wipe the case with it and size, I don't understand the problem.
    Click to expand...
    Byron, did you read what I wrote? Can you see my experience has not been the same as yours? Not that any of it matters but here you go...single stage RCBS press, PCM X-Tac brass (21 head stamp, basically the same thing as LC) Once or twice fired out of a bolt gun with a few out of my AR10 thrown in for good measure...all of those will size with little effort with the Hornady die. Problem is, I have to really lube up the case with Imperial to get it to work in the RCBS to the point where I don't feel like the case will get stuck or I'll break something else. And then there's the whole headspace issue of not being consistent. I'm perplexed.
    hafejd30 said:
    I had issues in the past with Hornady brass sticking in a Redding body die in 308. Lapua hasn’t had that issue
    Click to expand...
    Using PMC brass, not the standard "bronze" stuff but the x-tac which uses a different case.
    M4orturnate said:
    I seem to have the best luck using a shit ton of lanolin/alchohol mix. I put the cases in a box and spray the hell out of them, let them dry then do it again. Rarely have headspace off by more than.0005 but every once in a while one will be a thou shorter. Been using them with 4 calibers.
    Click to expand...
    Right? I've had really good success with lanolin/alcohol as messy as it is. I'm able to pretty much nail headspace with the Hornady die on either a single stage or my Dillon 750.

    I feel like this is 1911 syndrome. I mean it's a die. It should work right out of the box and not need a break-in period. The fact an already sized case got stuck should be an indication something is off. And honestly, who wants to sit there and rub wax on each case to get it to work? It's not like I'm loading 20 rounds. I usually load 100 minimum. That would be incredibly tedious.

    And yes, I am annealing the brass prior to sizing. I usually hold it on the upstroke for a few seconds before releasing it out of the die.
     
    #12
    Rocketvapor said:
    Have you tried it without the expander?
    I have several Redding Body only dies.
    I even use it to resize 6mm HAGAR to 22 Nosler.
    That's some significant sizing :)
    Click to expand...
    I run it without the expander. I usually use a mandrel to set neck tension, this was an experiment in doing it another way and controlling neck growth and trying to work the brass less.
     
    #13
    Ok...I think I figured something out.

    Per 918v's suggestion, I started from scratch. Cleaned the die thoroughly first with naphtha and then with denatured alcohol and blew it out with compressed air. I used a swab as well just to make sure before a final agitated rinse of denatured alcohol. Squeaky clean. Leaving the neck bushing out for the tests, no expander ball.

    -Per Redding's instruction, I raised the ram, screwed the die down until it was just touching, backed it out 1/4 turn.
    -I pre-measured a fired casing at 1.634 out of my AR10 because I have a LOT more of that brass (PMC Bronze, Win 308 head stamp marking) and am tired of wasting the good stuff.
    -Using 918v's suggestion, I tried to break the die in using his method with a few of those. It's still very difficult unless I put a lot of lube on the case, what I'd consider to be too much. Even after camming over and full length resizing the die, if I lube it up again and run it into the die, it's still difficult but obviously easier than a case that hasn't been sized.
    -Pulling the case out and measuring, headspace is now 1.638. Assuming the case being resized is pushing the shoulder up.
    -Raising the ram and screwing the Redding die til it's just touching, I lock it in place and size another piece. Starting headspace 1.634. Ending, 1.633. And there it is.

    At it's minimum setting the die, with my RCBS "standard" shell holder, will not size below 1.633. So if I'm seeing this, and turning the die further in to achieve 1.626, I'm most likely introducing inconsistencies in the cam over as I fully lower the handle. THAT'S where the inconsistent head spacing happens.

    And just to give you an idea of the force, I have the press next to me, sitting down. On a case being sized the first time, I cannot lower the ram without standing up and really pulling up on the handle. I am not a small individual. On a case run through once, I can do it sitting down but it does still require a good bit of effort, more than it should.

    Even with a full resize, I managed to get another one stuck. It'd already been sized!

    I do feel it's getting a bit better but without a ton of lube, I cannot size a case in one step. I have to back it out, lube it a bit more, raise the ram a bit more, back it out and repeat. If I lube the crap out it, we're good to go but I'll have to buy a gallon vat to process a year's worth of brass.

    I have a few images, going to process those and post them here. BRB.
     
    #15
    Ape_Factory said:
    Ok...I think I figured something out.

    Per 918v's suggestion, I started from scratch. Cleaned the die thoroughly first with naphtha and then with denatured alcohol and blew it out with compressed air. I used a swab as well just to make sure before a final agitated rinse of denatured alcohol. Squeaky clean. Leaving the neck bushing out for the tests, no expander ball.

    -Per Redding's instruction, I raised the ram, screwed the die down until it was just touching, backed it out 1/4 turn.
    -I pre-measured a fired casing at 1.634 out of my AR10 because I have a LOT more of that brass (PMC Bronze, Win 308 head stamp marking) and am tired of wasting the good stuff.
    -Using 918v's suggestion, I tried to break the die in using his method with a few of those. It's still very difficult unless I put a lot of lube on the case, what I'd consider to be too much. Even after camming over and full length resizing the die, if I lube it up again and run it into the die, it's still difficult but obviously easier than a case that hasn't been sized.
    -Pulling the case out and measuring, headspace is now 1.638. Assuming the case being resized is pushing the shoulder up.
    -Raising the ram and screwing the Redding die til it's just touching, I lock it in place and size another piece. Starting headspace 1.634. Ending, 1.633. And there it is.

    At it's minimum setting the die, with my RCBS "standard" shell holder, will not size below 1.633. So if I'm seeing this, and turning the die further in to achieve 1.626, I'm most likely introducing inconsistencies in the cam over as I fully lower the handle. THAT'S where the inconsistent head spacing happens.

    And just to give you an idea of the force, I have the press next to me, sitting down. On a case being sized the first time, I cannot lower the ram without standing up and really pulling up on the handle. I am not a small individual. On a case run through once, I can do it sitting down but it does still require a good bit of effort, more than it should.

    Even with a full resize, I managed to get another one stuck. It'd already been sized!

    I do feel it's getting a bit better but without a ton of lube, I cannot size a case in one step. I have to back it out, lube it a bit more, raise the ram a bit more, back it out and repeat. If I lube the crap out it, we're good to go but I'll have to buy a gallon vat to process a year's worth of brass.

    I have a few images, going to process those and post them here. BRB.
    Click to expand...

    How much is the die reducing the case diameter? Maybe your chamber is big and the die small. Some 308 chambers allow the case to expand to .475” and those are difficult to resize in a die that normally takes the case down to .469”
     
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    #16
    RCBS Rock Chucker Supreme. Has a very long handle!

    Honestly the stuck cases have been somewhat easy to get out. I have a nice punch that's the perfect size for 308 and I just hammer them right out. Not fun but a lesser worry since they actually come out, LOL.

    So check this photo out. See all the lines that run the length of the case? I've not seen this before with any other die. That's a sized case.


    Tweaked cases.


    It looks like I'll need to invest in some of their shell holders. Yet an additional expense that wouldn't be needed if this thing was designed or manufactured correctly.
     
    #18
    918v said:
    How much is the die reducing the case diameter? Maybe your chamber is big and the die small. Some 308 chambers allow the case to expand to .475” and those are difficult to resize in a die that normally takes the case down to .469”
    Click to expand...
    I'll measure and get back to you. I mean one is a bolt gun and one is an AR10 so you'd think the AR would be rather difficult (it is) but the bolt gun is just as difficult.

    And again, Redding said they had no issues resizing the cases I sent them. And I guess that's true if the cases are dripping in their lube. IMO, the amount of lube needed was unnatural. :ROFLMAO:
     
    #19
    Ape_Factory said:
    RCBS Rock Chucker Supreme. Has a very long handle!

    Honestly the stuck cases have been somewhat easy to get out. I have a nice punch that's the perfect size for 308 and I just hammer them right out. Not fun but a lesser worry since they actually come out, LOL.

    So check this photo out. See all the lines that run the length of the case? I've not seen this before with any other die. That's a sized case.


    Tweaked cases.


    It looks like I'll need to invest in some of their shell holders. Yet an additional expense that wouldn't be needed if this thing was designed or manufactured correctly.
    Click to expand...

    Larue? Or similar fluted chamber?
     
    #20
    hafejd30 said:
    Curious if you’re over lubing?
    Click to expand...
    If I put on what I think is the "right" amount of lube, the cases get stuck. I can add more lube, size the case. Pull case out and if I raised the ram again, the case would get stuck. That actually happened. I pound out the case and it's still slick with lube. If I double the amount, the case will insert and pull out of the die but with much, much more effort than should be necessary.
     
    #22
    918v said:
    Larue? Or similar fluted chamber?
    Click to expand...
    Sig Cross for the bolt gun, POF Revolution DI for the "AR10". But both resize just fine with the Hornady, even running it on the Dillon vs. the single stage RCBS. I have a carbide 308 rifle die coming from Dillon that I ordered six or seven months ago, to make resizing 308 LC brass easier. Got tired of waiting and went with my Hornady die. Zero issues and it resized the brass just fine on the Dillon (or the single stage).
     
    #23
    Neither one of the chambers is fluted. I've bore scoped both. The POF does have extraction channels but there are just four. The Cross definitely doesn't have any channels or flutes. Both are equally hard to size in the Redding but the Hornady die has no problem resizing either no matter what lube I use.
     
    #25
    I also realized if I get the Redding Competition Shell Holder Set it'll only increase headspace. So if I can currently size down to 1.633 with it screwed all the way down, getting the shell holder set will only increase that number.
     
    #27
    Ok you made me pull out my bore scope to check, LOL. No flutes inside the POF chamber except for the four channels and it wouldn't match up with all of the lines running the circumference of that case. POF calls them extraction channels. Maybe if it's fluted, the flute height is too small to see with a bore scope? I don't get those lines with the Hornady either. If I had another die to compare, I'd do so but nothing in my possession at the moment.

    I'll scope the Sig tomorrow, its late.
     
    #28
    Type S works fine for sig cross, a 2-3 thou shoulder bump is easy...or at least it should be...there has to be a problem with the bushing or the setup in the die.
     
    #29
    ma smith said:
    Type S works fine for sig cross, a 2-3 thou shoulder bump is easy...or at least it should be...there has to be a problem with the bushing or the setup in the die.
    Click to expand...
    I would hope! With the Hornady die, zero problem achieving that. With the Redding screwed down against the shell holder, I can get a minimum of 1.633 on my comparator. I need 1.626 as twice fired cases are 1.628. I have a CarbonSix barrel on the sig, not the stock barrel. I'd have to go back and look what my headspace was with the stock barrel.

    Edit: I took the bushing out to remove it from the equation.
     
    #30
    Ape_Factory said:
    I also realized if I get the Redding Competition Shell Holder Set it'll only increase headspace. So if I can currently size down to 1.633 with it screwed all the way down, getting the shell holder set will only increase that number.
    Click to expand...

    The smallest competition shell holder is +.002” so you need to use a standard shell holder if you need more clearance.
     
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    #32
    918v said:
    The smallest competition shell holder is +.002” so you need to use a standard shell holder if you need more clearance.
    Click to expand...
    The way I'm reading it, you're adding .002, correct? So I'd go from 1.633 to 1.635 with the smallest shell holder. No way to reduce it down to 1.626 just using the shell holders, I can only add? Or am I completely backwards on that one?
     
    #34
    Run your borescope up the die. I also send a little shot of oneshot into the die and wipe the excess after a cleaning. Albeit the die should be nice and slick inside with all the lube you’ve run through it
     
    #36
    Use more Lube. I hate redding dies as well, Have had much better luck with RCBS and Wilson, which is my go to now.

    You cannot beat wilson dies for the money. They are a work of art.

    You need to lube the shit out with lanolin, even spray a case directly before you start so it spreads lube up into die. Since going to Lanolin I have not had a stuck case.
     
    #37
    Ape_Factory said:
    RCBS Rock Chucker Supreme. Has a very long handle!

    Honestly the stuck cases have been somewhat easy to get out. I have a nice punch that's the perfect size for 308 and I just hammer them right out. Not fun but a lesser worry since they actually come out, LOL.

    So check this photo out. See all the lines that run the length of the case? I've not seen this before with any other die. That's a sized case.


    Tweaked cases.


    It looks like I'll need to invest in some of their shell holders. Yet an additional expense that wouldn't be needed if this thing was designed or manufactured correctly.
    Click to expand...
    Your brass prep looks like shit as well. Get a henderson. The chamfer will help it feed smoother into the neck bushing and reduce risk of stuck case.
     
    #40
    DeathBeforeDismount said:
    Your brass prep looks like shit as well. Get a henderson. The chamfer will help it feed smoother into the neck bushing and reduce risk of stuck case.
    Click to expand...
    I just realized you're referring to the trimmer when the rest of us are talking about resizing dies. I have a Giraud. Why would I trim before sizing the die? Go back and read the entire thread, I took out the neck bushing to remove it from the equation. The brass isn't getting hung up on the neck bushing but rather the main portion of the resizing die either having a bad finish or being undersized.
     
    #41
    Ape_Factory said:
    RCBS Rock Chucker Supreme. Has a very long handle!

    Honestly the stuck cases have been somewhat easy to get out. I have a nice punch that's the perfect size for 308 and I just hammer them right out. Not fun but a lesser worry since they actually come out, LOL.

    So check this photo out. See all the lines that run the length of the case? I've not seen this before with any other die. That's a sized case.


    Tweaked cases.


    It looks like I'll need to invest in some of their shell holders. Yet an additional expense that wouldn't be needed if this thing was designed or manufactured correctly.
    Click to expand...

    Ape_Factory said:
    Considering nothing's been done to that case other than anneal and a short wash, it's just fine thanks. Never heard of Henderson, have a link?
    Click to expand...
    You don't have to answer him , he is always a dick .
     
    #42
    Ape_Factory said:
    I just realized you're referring to the trimmer when the rest of us are talking about resizing dies. I have a Giraud. Why would I trim before sizing the die? Go back and read the entire thread, I took out the neck bushing to remove it from the equation. The brass isn't getting hung up on the neck bushing but rather the main portion of the resizing die either having a bad finish or being undersized.
    Click to expand...
    The guy is a total dickhead, just ignore him . Not sure what the trolls problem is but he serves no purpose .
     
    #44
    Ape_Factory said:
    Considering nothing's been done to that case other than anneal and a short wash, it's just fine thanks. Never heard of Henderson, have a link?
    Click to expand...
    Does your brass have a “sticky” sort of texture to the brass after annealing on the shoulder?

    I had my Lee collet die crush cases because it hung up on the inside of the neck. Caused by the sort of clingy/sticky texture left from my benchsource annealer

    When I anneal I either tumble after or polish the shoulder/neck area with fine steel wool and brush the inside of the neck prior to sizing
    167445FE-6328-4BF9-9FB9-0E674C215BA2.jpeg
     
    #45
    hafejd30 said:
    Does your brass have a “sticky” sort of texture to the brass after annealing on the shoulder?

    I had my Lee collet die crush cases because it hung up on the inside of the neck. Caused by the sort of clingy/sticky texture left from my benchsource annealer

    When I anneal I either tumble after or polish the shoulder/neck area with fine steel wool and brush the inside of the neck prior to sizing
    Click to expand...
    I'll check again but I don't ever remember them being tacky in any way at all. I use a flame annealer (Ugly Annealer from Australia). I media wet tumble and dry quickly in a dehumidifier. Plus it's all lubed before being put in the die. Redding gives me issues, the Hornady is fine. I've never had a stuck case in the Hornady using One Shot or my lanolin/alcohol mixture.
     
    #46
    Ape_Factory said:
    I'll check again but I don't ever remember them being tacky in any way at all. I use a flame annealer (Ugly Annealer from Australia). I media wet tumble and dry quickly in a dehumidifier. Plus it's all lubed before being put in the die. Redding gives me issues, the Hornady is fine. I've never had a stuck case in the Hornady using One Shot or my lanolin/alcohol mixture.
    Click to expand...
    Ya I saw the post about Hornady working. Just wondering if maybe the rougher finish on the Redding die combined with a rougher texture on the shoulder of the brass may cause the issue

    You tumble after annealing?
     
    #47
    I had the same issues with a Redding Die Set and when I finally was able to lube cases enough to size them I got hellacious lube dents. I tried literally everything and then just bought an RCBS full length resizing die and then use the Redding Neck Sizing die to get proper neck tension and seat with the Redding Micrometer Seating Die. all ammunition produced now is fabulous, consistent and accurate.

    Redding dies are not vented and IMO this is where the problems begin. I'll never buy another Redding Sizing die for anything I load for. Ever.

    VooDoo
     
    #48
    Excess lube is probably producing some of those lines. It will push out and form to length.
    Have you sanded down the neck/shoulder junction of a sacrificial case yet?

    @hafejd30
    Have you checked for stickage because of a groove worn into the collet?
    It will hold the tapers together causing a case to drag going in.
    The collet stays stuck and partly closed down. I have to polish mine.
     
    #49
    Lets get some actual measurements here, lets see just how much the case is getting sized everywhere vs just the one single measurement.
    C99258E2-0962-4274-B2C4-FF100B20654F.jpeg


    Taking the base down 3k would make for some super tough sizing regardless of where the shoulder is getting pushed to for example. The answer is in the actual numbers somewhere.
     
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