Erratic performance

[cliffy110]

I'm very new to precision rimfire and so far, I'm having a blast, learning a lot but also getting rather frustrated and confused. I have a Ruger Precision Rimfire with a Vortex Venom 3-25x44 in a Primary Arms zero cantilever mount. Bipod is a Spartan Javelin that I use on my Sig Cross. I set this up to match the feel of the Cross.

For now, I'll skip the fact that my dope at 100 and 200 don't seem to correlate to anything approaching reality. Right now, I have a more basic concern. The accuracy at 36 yards is extremely erratic. I chose 36 yards based on Frank's observations but it would be the same with a 25 or 50 yard zero. Sometimes, I can stack the rounds into a neat little 5 shot group that is about a half inch in size and other times, it opens up to 2-3 inches. It will then fall back to .5" for a few groups and open up again.

I'm baffled. I feel like I'm getting good trigger presses each time and feel like I have good but not perfect NPA. The disparity is stunning. I've checked all the screws on the mount and torqued them appropriately. I have found that both Aguila Competition and Target and Wolf Match are very similar in performance and both do this.

Any suggestions for a rimfire rookie?

Oh... and My shooting is from prone with a Game Changer but I get similar results from a bipod although my POA tends to shift up a fair amount.

 

[justin amateur]

I'm gonna need to see pics of the setup when in use,
and the ammunition being used that's giving you 3 inch strays at 50 yards.
Then I might be able to offer a useful comment.

 

[1911Shootist]

Do you have the scope adjusted so that it is parallax free?

 

[VFL1911]

I've owned 2 RPRR's in the past and they were inconsistency inaccurate by competition standards, but I've never heard of something this bad at 36 yards. For reference everyone will zero their 22's at 50 yards as the standard distance for zeroing. It's the same benchmark distance that centerfire has at 100. Have you:

1. Checked the torque on the action screws?
2. Checked the torque on the scope mount to the base rail?
3. Checked the torque on the scope rings?
4. Tried ammo outside of Aguila & Wolf? Such as Eley, SK, or Lapua?
5. Confirmed these 3 inch groups are coming from the same lot and manufacture of ammo, correct? You're not shooting Aguila a few times and then switching to Wolf and complaining the mixed groupings between the two are 3 inches on the same target?

 

[Jefe's Dope]

I would try a different scope to see it repeats the problem. If it does not, then you have a scope issue. If it does, I would try a known quality ammo like Center X to see if it repeat the problem. This is of course confirming all action and scope screws are properly tight and secure.

 

[kl3309]

...My shooting is from prone with a Game Changer but I get similar results from a bipod although my POA tends to shift up a fair amount.

Sounds like the plastic bits are flexing a lot when you load it up. Shoot it free-recoil and see if it's any more consitent. If it is, then you'll have to adapt how you get behind the gun.

 

[ZY100]

Might not be the best video, but the “tape trick” works for some….

 

[Emerson0311]

I expect you are doing something or missing a critical step somewhere. I sighted in my BIL’s RPR. With CCISV at 100, ten shot groups were around 1 3/8” or so. Not easy to shoot well, but reasonable for the price.

 

[cliffy110]

There's some really good suggestions and observations here. I am a rookie with rimfire but I do have a fair amount of experience behind a rifle which is why this has been so perplexing. In looking at the suggestions above and thinking more about this (work keeps me from the range at the moment), here's a few thoughts I'm having.

1. Parallax was mentioned and this is a distinct possibility. I did dial for 36 yards but I'm noticing that the image is not consistent across all magnifications. I have to change it a bit as I increase magnification. Not sure if this is a scope issue or something normal that I haven't seen before because I don't normally shoot this close up.

2. I feel like my basic fundamentals are fairly sound (not perfect but relatively solid) but am I sure my NPA is absolutely perfect? Nope. The above suggestion of trying free recoil could help me isolate this as the cause of these inconsistencies. My regular rifle is a Sig Cross and a Steyr Scout and I've never seen this dramatic of group size deviations but maybe rimfire is more sensitive than what I'm used to.

3. The bedding video above might need some consideration. I have checked torque on every screw and I'm confident they are fine but I had not considered bedding issues.

4. Ammo sensitivity was mentioned and I've been careful to segregate examining groups to ensure of what I'm seeing. I have tried Eley (Club, Target and Match) and the Aguila and Wolf seem to offer better groups. At least they did before things went haywire. This spreading of the groups is a newish thing.

5. I am more suspicious of the scope than anything at this point. Something odd happened that I didn't think much of it but now I think it could be a sign of a problem. A few days ago, I confirmed zero, cleaned the rifle and put it away. The next day, I took it out and shot it only to discover that the POI had shifted 3 mils (yes, three... not point three) to the right. This leads me to think that maybe something is amiss with the scope, particularly in the horizontal plane.

I'll switch the scope and give it a try. Thanks all for the replies.

 

[1911Shootist]

1. Parallax was mentioned and this is a distinct possibility. I did dial for 36 yards but I'm noticing that the image is not consistent across all magnifications. I have to change it a bit as I increase magnification. Not sure if this is a scope issue or something normal that I haven't seen before because I don't normally shoot this close up.

Ignore the numbers on the parallax dial - they shouldn't even exist. Parallax is different for every eye, diopter, and lighting condition. Always do the head wiggle test to make sure your reticle isn't moving on the target once you have the rifle in position.

 

[Cody S]

I just got a vortex venom 5-25 from Amazon and I like this optic but I'm so scared it'll give up the ghost because it was so cheap.
it's on a 22lr so I'm gonna let it roll. when it dies I'll slap the old g2razor on it while they fix this thing. gl brother, hopeful it was the ammo and you're out of it anyways.

 

[MajorD]

I have similarly found the numbers on the parallax dial do not exactly match what I see for maximal clarity
after checking all torque settings, try better ammo and see what happens. Also make sure the thread protector is tight or take it off all together and see what difference it makes.
the ruger is pretty inconsistent quality wise. One guy I know has one that is a hammer, other guys have sent rifles back to the factory for significant performance issues ( at least one of those rifles sent back more than once) and still not acceptable

 

[Cody S]

I really like rugers, fun gun for the price but yeah I've seen the inconsistency too. some will be 1/4 moa for 5 shots with handloads, some are more like 1moa with handloads... and that's with a very small sample size which makes me think it's fairly widespread.

 

[cliffy110]

So I was able to swap scopes and found that it remains very inconsistent. I am noticing that when it gets wonky, it strings horizontally. It will then tighten up suddenly and then go back to weirdness. It is truly erratic. My next thing is to try the aluminum tape bedding trick mentioned above.

Here's pics of the rifle and two groups that illustrate the issue. Both are as perfect of trigger presses as possible. There were no flinches or movement of any type for each of these. The first is 10 shots and you can see the horizontal pattern. NO, it isn't the three inch group that I've been seeing but I took this pic because it showed the pattern so well. The second looks like a three shot group, but I assure you, it is 5 and two went into the same freakin' hole. It took a magnifying glass to see that two of the holes are slightly oversized. These groups were back to back.

 

[ZY100]

Make sure a bolt or nut from your bi-pod attachment (or anything else) is not contacting your barrel. The barrel is totally clear in the hand guard, correct?

 

[DFOOSKING]

What's the ammo being used and at what distance in this pic?

Also, start shooting better TARGETS. That big solid black dot is ridiculously big and offers no ability to narrow in your focus. Aim small....miss small.

To me, knowing nothing at all thinks that's wind on the range. The vertical isn't too bad or surprising considering the lack of a tighter aiming reference.

If your shooting 25-50yds with 25X power....try aiming at a dot the size of a pea (or smaller) than aiming at a quarter sized dot.

Get another reputable shooter to run your gun as well. Eliminate yourself as the issue.

Also, ditch the can or whatever the fuck that is on the muzzle. Eliminate that as the cause.

 

[AGrizz]

You are waisting your time. Stop playing "Elmer Fudd" and get yourself a rifle. I.E. Bergara B14r, CZ 457, Zermatt RimX or Vudoo. Yea it hurts the pocket book but it is much better than playing this pissing game.

 

[cliffy110]

What's the ammo being used and at what distance in this pic?

Also, start shooting better TARGETS. That big solid black dot is ridiculously big and offers no ability to narrow in your focus. Aim small....miss small.

To me, knowing nothing at all thinks that's wind on the range. The vertical isn't too bad or surprising considering the lack of a tighter aiming reference.

If your shooting 25-50yds with 25X power....try aiming at a dot the size of a pea (or smaller) than aiming at a quarter sized dot.
View attachment 8426542
Get another reputable shooter to run your gun as well. Eliminate yourself as the issue.

Also, ditch the can or whatever the fuck that is on the muzzle. Eliminate that as the cause.

Distance is 36 yards and the scope is a 3-15X but yes, I get your point of needing a smaller aiming reference. I have a roll of these stickers .75" so I'm using them up.

 

[Fasteddie01]

I agree that using a smaller target would be helpful, as would shooting at 50 yds. I use poster board paper and draw " + " in rows of about 6 across (2-3" apart) and as many rows as you want. I often mix in some 3/4" DOTS for variety but the '+' is a better aiming point.
As for the bipod, loading is better left to larger calibers that need more "control" of recoil for stability and return to POA. Try with your bag in back and as close to free recoil as you can, Or use a sled so you can reduce physical contact to minimum. And your trigger needs to be as light as practical to get consistent results - 'under' 2# or Better unless you hunt the rifle w/o safety. I try to keep target rifles under 1# myself.
Last point, make sure your rifle is 'level' while shooting. It's very common to introduce a bit of a cant when aiming, especially if your target doesn't give much of a reference for level, ie horizontal lines of some sort. A cant can cause some amount of change in POI, especially if the cant is Not always the same.

 

[Fasteddie01]

PS - Those stickers in the pics look to be more than 3/4", but that could be since 'black' just 'looks bigger'. I use 3/4" dots from Dollar Store, some are for Yard sales with $ amounts printed on 'em. The same store has dots that are 1/4" but my scopes are 25x or better and 1/4" is still a 'big target', hence the " + " targets.

 

[cliffy110]

I agree that using a smaller target would be helpful, as would shooting at 50 yds. I use poster board paper and draw " + " in rows of about 6 across (2-3" apart) and as many rows as you want. I often mix in some 3/4" DOTS for variety but the '+' is a better aiming point.
As for the bipod, loading is better left to larger calibers that need more "control" of recoil for stability and return to POA. Try with your bag in back and as close to free recoil as you can, Or use a sled so you can reduce physical contact to minimum. And your trigger needs to be as light as practical to get consistent results - 'under' 2# or Better unless you hunt the rifle w/o safety. I try to keep target rifles under 1# myself.
Last point, make sure your rifle is 'level' while shooting. It's very common to introduce a bit of a cant when aiming, especially if your target doesn't give much of a reference for level, ie horizontal lines of some sort. A cant can cause some amount of change in POI, especially if the cant is Not always the same.

All good points and appreciated. I am using the bubble level but my shooting position is slightly canted so that could be inducing a bit of stress as I straighten it out. I'll keep working with it to ensure I'm taking myself out of the situation as much as possible.

 

[1911Shootist]

Bubble level is nearly irrelevant at <100 yards if you’re reasonably level.

Both groups are pretty bad for 36 yards, I’d expect them all to be touching with match ammo or even CCI SV or SK Std. I don’t say this to disparage your shooting, but to highlight that they’re indicative of something else being way out of whack.

I’d pull the whole thing apart (including the barrel), clean every mating surface and reassemble with a proper torque wrench. If it still won’t shoot, it’s time for a new barrel or rifle.

Try it with better ammo, no can, and make sure parallax is set properly. If a gun can’t shoot 1.5 MOA under 100 yards, something isn’t right. 36 yard groups should be ~1/2” on center.

 

[Emerson0311]

Generic rifle, very basic ammo, huge aim point, range way too short. Shoot at a 1/2” dot at 100. Loose or dirty muzzle devices, especially in Rimfire, will destroy accuracy. Find someone who is shooting small groups at 100, and give him 3 mags to shoot for groups.

 

[Shoots 700's]

I’m going to suggest better ammo

 

[cliffy110]

I’m going to suggest better ammo

I tried Eley Club, Target and Match and none were as good as the Aguila Competition... at least before things started going haywire. The Wolf is made by Eley and I don't know which level is is comparable to but it outshoots the Match in this rifle. I haven't tried SK or CCI.

 

[obx22]

Ok, sounds like you are listening and genuinely trying, so let’s get a few things straight:
Have you dry fired the gun while carefully aiming and studying what the crosshairs do through the “snap”? Do they bounce to a different spot, or move through the trigger press?
Parallax can virtually be eliminated at any distance and with any scope by simply placing a piece of electrical tape across the eyebell with a small hole to peep through.
Check the gun over for either action screws or scope mount screws going through and contacting or bottoming out on something they shouldn’t such at the barrel or bolt assembly.
Speaking of bolt, what does the bolt handle/knob do during the firing cycle? Does it bounce?
Have you examined your fired cases for uniform firing pin strikes?
Any damage to the breechface from dry fire?
Try a loading a full mag, and while firing, eject every 3rd round after chambering and study it for damage from the feeding cycle.
How does it group purely shooting off front and rear bags?
When going through your firing cycle, how consistent are you? Always the same forces applied to the firearm? Have you tried a magazine while deathgripping it (squeezing almost to the point of tremor), or free recoil (eliminating as much human influence as possible)?
These and the ideas listed above should help in diagnosing the issue.
Last but not least, your ammo hasn’t been dropped and is stored in the proverbial cool dry place I hope…

 

[Williwaw]

Great list obx22. I would first ,however, follow Emerson's suggestion to get a known good shooter to do some group/targets at 50 or 100yds.

 

[Cody S]

what does the bolt handle/knob moving mean? I think it's twitched in every bolt gun I've ever had..

 

[DFOOSKING]

It's just the resultant movement caused when the internal mechanism of the sear releasing the firing pin and firing pin spring are moving during the firing cycle.

The time from your brain telling your finger to pull the trigger and moving forward in the cycle to the point that your bullet physically uncorks from the muzzle. That is referred to as "lock time". That is time when YOU can still alter the position of the gun potentially moving the system off the line. The shorter you make the lock time....the less effect YOU can impart on the gun negatively. So if your gun is shit and has inconsistent lock time....it can lead to inconsistency. If your gun simply has a long lock time....it means you have much more opportunity to potentially fuck up your shot. We are talking fractions of second.

Not something you should be worried about since you aren't shooting anything too serious. But the super duper competitive benchrest types are likely looking at the efficiency of the gun. Just a fun kernel of information when you see the bolt wiggle.

 

[cliffy110]

Thanks all for this. Finding a good shooter... well, I am shooting in my back yard and the closest neighbor who shoots is more than a mile from here. LOL. I get the idea but not practical.

As for all of this, I took everything apart today and retorqued every screw and inspected the whole system. It seems solid and I didn't find any weirdness.

I then started looking at myself. With a centerfire rifle, I can reliably produce 5 shot groups of .25 to .75" at 100 yards with a Sig Cross and factory ammo. I've documented this frequently and while I'm certainly NOT an expert, I am decent.

It is entirely possible that this Ruger Rimfire is just extremely more sensitive to errors in NPA than the Cross. It could be that this rifle is exposing problems with my skill that don't manifest themselves with a centerfire. For instance, I have been using a Game Changer as a rear bag but in order to get the correct elevation, I have to turn the bag in an odd manner. It is possible that this puts just slight torque on some other part of the rifle and affects true NPA.

Today, I switched to a Marc Taylor rear bag and was able to feel a little more neutral. Things did tighten up, but still not to the point that I'm happy. In a 10 shot string, I'd have three or 4 shots stacked on top of each other, three more would stack on top of each other but 3/4" away and the rest were randomly tossed between those.

I'm going to try some different ammo next. SK and I'll try Eley again (didn't have much success with it last time but maybe I'm getting better).

Oh... and I tried a tripod but I am NOT very experienced with it and I don't trust the results. I need to sort out the gun before I sort out my skill with different positions.

 

[Cody S]

in my limited experience helping people, if they're competitant enough to have a nice bolt action and shoot 1/4 groups on occasion they're good enough to know if they pulled a shot by several moa so you're probably not the issue.

 

[cliffy110]

I’m not going to absolve myself from any issues, but I decided to carefully examine the crown. At first, it looked just fine but then I used my camera to get in close. It looks like there are rough spots on the edge of the lands. I cleaned and looked again and sure enough, it is buggered.

I’ve already got a Shaw barrel ordered. I’ll update when that gets installed

 

[Fasteddie01]

Boy, that could be an issue !! You could get that cleaned up and maybe have a good shooter out of it . . . or some barter material if it turns out good enuf to trade off. Still, the other suggestions should be addressed even with a new barrel.

 

[cliffy110]

Thanks all for the input on this. The new barrel made a HUGE difference. The funny thing is, it didn't make a dramatic difference in how the Aguila ammo shoots. That had been the most accurate load with the old barrel but it still wasn't very good. Eley Match was noticeably worse. The new barrel dropped right on and now the Eley, SK and RWS is phenomenal. The Wolf is decent and the Aguila is mediocre at best. I wanted a baseline for comparison so I started at 36 yards but then backed up to 50 and the Eley Match quickly demonstrated why it has the reputation it does.

It is funny that Chris Way has been talking about blaming the equipment versus the shooter. I had been blaming myself in spite of the fact that I have a moderate amount of confidence in my skills. I thought that the poor performance was because a .22 was so much more finicky than a centerfire when it comes to fundamentals. I thought the rimfire was exposing things that the centerfire covered up. I'm now seeing that yes, the RF is a little more sensitive but not dramatically so. I have to give 100% concentration to keep it right but when I do, the results should show. I just needed the right equipment to let me see that.