Essential gear for new guy?

[thelaststraw]

New to rifles here with a USPSA background. I do handload and am dialing things in the best (consistent) I can with my limited experience with rifle cartridges. Currently I started with a few ballistic programs to get a ballpark to start with like 4DOF, BalisticARC and JBM. I pretty much only use BallisticARC currently to avoid any confusion yutzing around with crap. I've been using weaponized math/try dope to build my DOPE as best I can until I get to some formal training.

Would I best be served getting a Kestrel for measuring environmentals or a chrono first? Or am I better off to get some training before I reinforce any bad habits and generate my DOOPE in the meantime, slow and deliberate like dry fire practice, on paper? End goal is to feel out PRS style matches and gauge interest before I go full ham on a proper rig. Thank you in advance for any input. My apologies if I'm in the wrong subforum too.

 

[MarkCO]

I'd just go take a class. Many have loaner rifles ammo and gear.

 

[Average guy]

A magnetospeed sporter chronograph is a damn affordable investment for load development. The more accurate of information you put into your ballistic solver the better the results you will have. After the chronograph then I’d pick up a Kestrel

 

[Tchitcherine]

What is your plan for sourcing ammo and/or components?
I expect this is a significant hurdle for someone new now.

 

[6.5SH]

If you reload a chronograph is a must.

 

[Powder_Burns]

I’ll play devil’s advocate. If you reload and use a chrono, you are going to get data on muzzle velocity, extreme spread, average velocity, high/low and standard deviation. So you got your load dialed in, know your average mv and a relatively low SD. You plug your mv into your ballistic solver software, then end up promptly changing the mv value to true up your drop data in the software. So basically you threw out all the data you collected with your chrono.
Lets say you got factory ammo, are you chronographing that and seeing what your SD is? You can’t change it. If you are using weaponized math, the process is to try predicted dope and adjust your drop table to your actual value. Once you have compiled your drop data and populated a dope chart, you won’t use the chronograph again for that load. How useful is that tool anymore? There’s enough data on the web to get an approximate mv for any bullet/powder charge. Put it in the ballistics solver, test and adjust bc and mv numbers until your dope matches.
That being said, I do own and use a few different chronographs. They just aren’t as important as we used to think they were.

 

[6.5SH]

You left out the most important aspect of the chronograph IMO; safety. You are just guessing/assuming what your reloads are doing without one.

 

[MarkCO]

Almost every time I go to practice, I chrono a few loads. Helps the barrel tell me when it needs to be cleaned. Also helps me make sure it returns to normal after the refouling. Also helps me to get my temperature sensitivity. Yep, an essential tool to be used often. When we see many King of 2 Mile and longer guys running a chrono while shooting the match, they do it for a reason.

 

[spife7980]

You’ve got BallisticsARC, you’re set there. Now get a chrono and make sure that variable number you enter is accurate. A good velocity is better than 5 degrees here or there in temp.

 

[thelaststraw]

I appreciate all the input. It seems to me ideally I should get both at the same time. While it's true that I don't know EXACTLY what my handloads are doing, I don't really push the limits in any way. That and my guesstimates with my MV have got me pretty close. As far as environmentals, currently I shoot locally only and wind is the biggest variable, but in SW Louisiana is really light generally and I'm not going past 600yds yet so it doesn't affect me much at all.

I guess a chrono is making the most sense now . Thank you for the help fellas. Now I just have to make the Labradar vs MS choice....haha

 

[flyfisher117]

Just curious if you have played around with Frank's weaponized math? It gets you data without a chronograph.

Predictable Weaponized Math and “X-Factor” Voodoo

Follow Sniper's Hide and pick up the latest information on all things precision rifle related. Sniper's Hide Training is for the serious tactical marksman.

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He even talks about it and using it to true your software.

Truing your Ballistic Calculator with Gravity Ballistics

Follow Sniper's Hide and pick up the latest information on all things precision rifle related. Sniper's Hide Training is for the serious tactical marksman.

www.snipershide.com

I've been trying it and kind of like it honestly. If you haven't done it yet I'd at least try it one before you get a chronograph.

I'm a noob and I geek out over the details... I love my chronograph but like mentioned above I throw out the data usually to get my Strelok or Kestrel trued.

Since upgrading my Kestrel to the elite software I am going to follow Frank's advice and use weaponized math to true it up this go around.

 

[thelaststraw]

I have been using weaponized math for generating data and it's been working great for me. I never had a need for a chrono even when I was shooting a lot of USPSA since I never ran bunny fart loads that just barely met power factor. My handloads for the rifle are all published loads and pretty mild, while I don't know exactly what they are doing, the results kind of tell me what they are doing. If that makes any sense?

 

[smoothy8500]

You plug your mv into your ballistic solver software, then end up promptly changing the mv value to true up your drop data in the software.. They just aren’t as important as we used to think they were.

Yeah, I find that the chrono is just collecting dust in the closet since I true up the Strelok and find loads that maintain minimal vertical dispersion at 600yds or further.

 

[Dthomas3523]

While I own and use a chrono, it’s the most overrated piece of equipment out there.

There’s almost nothing you can’t do without one.

If it’s a common cartridge and you use common charge weights….safety isn’t a concern. You can get dope without it. And, as long as you use a halfway decent load process, your sd/es won’t be remotely close enough to miss a 2moa target.

 

[308pirate]

You left out the most important aspect of the chronograph IMO; safety. You are just guessing/assuming what your reloads are doing without one.

The impact on target lets you back into the velocity of the bullet, which is ALL a chrono will tell you.

A chrono will tell you nothing about the pressure generated by your ammo.

 

[308pirate]

I have been using weaponized math for generating data and it's been working great for me. I never had a need for a chrono even when I was shooting a lot of USPSA since I never ran bunny fart loads that just barely met power factor. My handloads for the rifle are all published loads and pretty mild, while I don't know exactly what they are doing, the results kind of tell me what they are doing. If that makes any sense?

It makes perfect sense

 

[thelaststraw]

Well that is reassuring. My next major purchase would probably be a kestrel of some sort aside from some training. I appreciate the help and the confirmation that I wasn't too off track with my hand loading/data gathering method using the try dope. I just don't want to go to a class not knowing jack about my system and it's capabilities.

 

[MarkCO]

A chrono will tell you nothing about the pressure generated by your ammo.

Um, nothing? Someone needs some ballistic education or some word definition education. Sure it won't tell you an actual number, but saying it tells you nothing is just plain wrong.

 

[Powder_Burns]

Your brass will tell you more about pressure than the chrono can.

 

[nn8734]

Now I just have to make the Labradar vs MS choice....haha

Lab radar, if you are willing to spend the money.

Any kestrel (or equivalent) to start will be sufficient, no need to spend tons of funds on the models with all the bells and whistles (you certainly can if you want but not necessary IMO). Just something to give you basic atmospherics (temp, DA, humidity, Barometric pressure, etc) to input into your ballistic app.

 

[6.5SH]

Your brass will tell you more about pressure than the chrono can.

By the time you see pressure signs on brass/primers with oh say 6.5 Grendel you are far past safe pressures.

 

[HogsLife]

New to rifles here with a USPSA background. I do handload and am dialing things in the best (consistent) I can with my limited experience with rifle cartridges. Currently I started with a few ballistic programs to get a ballpark to start with like 4DOF, BalisticARC and JBM. I pretty much only use BallisticARC currently to avoid any confusion yutzing around with crap. I've been using weaponized math/try dope to build my DOPE as best I can until I get to some formal training.

Would I best be served getting a Kestrel for measuring environmentals or a chrono first? Or am I better off to get some training before I reinforce any bad habits and generate my DOOPE in the meantime, slow and deliberate like dry fire practice, on paper? End goal is to feel out PRS style matches and gauge interest before I go full ham on a proper rig. Thank you in advance for any input. My apologies if I'm in the wrong subforum too.

Id get the kestrel first 100%. You can get out to the range w/o a chrono, get hard dopes. Record environmentals and then take that back to your calculator and manipulate your muzzle velocity until what it spits out matches to it hard dopes.

I did this for years, but you gotta know your environments

get the kestrel

I only recently grabbed a magneto V3. Great piece of kit but it doesn’t do you any good without environmental data .

 

[thelaststraw]

That's what I've been doing to try and confirm results. I went wrong initially by using an app based calculator to get ballpark numbers after a half assed zero.....and within a day or two ran into posts here about how wrong I was all together.

I'm going to get a tight zero, confirm it at 2-300 and walk it out as I go. What was causing me problems or doubts was that I didn't know my environmentals in my immediate area due to tree lines, hills, swamps,etc nor do I know my exact MV. Also, my MV will vary with these unknown envonmentals anyway since I'm using Leverevolution currently, until I can find some other viable temp stable powder . What's more important for me was the question I kept asking myself.

My MV doesn't really mean a damn thing for generating and confirming my dope/data?
At least until I start transitioning from supersonic.

 

[HogsLife]

That's what I've been doing to try and confirm results. I went wrong initially by using an app based calculator to get ballpark numbers after a half assed zero.....and within a day or two ran into posts here about how wrong I was all together.

I'm going to get a tight zero, confirm it at 2-300 and walk it out as I go. What was causing me problems or doubts was that I didn't know my environmentals in my immediate area due to tree lines, hills, swamps,etc nor do I know my exact MV. Also, my MV will vary with these unknown envonmentals anyway since I'm using Leverevolution currently, until I can find some other viable temp stable powder . What's more important for me was the question I kept asking myself.

My MV doesn't really mean a damn thing for generating and confirming my dope/data?
At least until I start transitioning from supersonic.

What are you shooting ? Caliber, barrel length, ammo?

 

[thelaststraw]

6ARC gas gun
20" 1:7" monster barrel
Just about used all my Hornady ammo but have been doing laid development of handloads in a few flavors. The factory ammo was to harvest some brass intially. At this point I'm working on what I think may be the sweet spot for it with SMK 95s.

 

[HogsLife]

That's what I've been doing to try and confirm results. I went wrong initially by using an app based calculator to get ballpark numbers after a half assed zero.....and within a day or two ran into posts here about how wrong I was all together.

I'm going to get a tight zero, confirm it at 2-300 and walk it out as I go. What was causing me problems or doubts was that I didn't know my environmentals in my immediate area due to tree lines, hills, swamps,etc nor do I know my exact MV. Also, my MV will vary with these unknown envonmentals anyway since I'm using Leverevolution currently, until I can find some other viable temp stable powder . What's more important for me was the question I kept asking myself.

My MV doesn't really mean a damn thing for generating and confirming my dope/data?
At least until I start transitioning from supersonic.

Im Not saying knowing your MV isn’t important or that it doesn’t matter. Im saying that having a way to get your environmentals is MORE important.

if you have your environmentals accurate, and have confirmed your dope via hits on target, then you can use JBM (or others) to manipulate your MV until the solution matches what you have confirmed with hits on target. get the chrono later.

As far as basic equipment?

-rifle
-variable power FFP optic
-bipod
-rear bag
-kestrel
-data book
-your choice of ballistic calculator

 

[thelaststraw]

Im Not saying knowing your MV isn’t important or that it doesn’t matter. Im saying that having a way to get your environmentals is MORE important.

if you have your environmentals accurate, and have confirmed your dope via hits on target, then you can use JBM (or others) to manipulate your MV until the solution matches what you have confirmed with hits on target. get the chrono later.

As far as basic equipment?

-rifle
-variable power FFP optic
-bipod
-rear bag
-kestrel
-data book
-your choice of ballistic calculator

Thank you sir. I'm pretty much exactly where you suggested minus a weather meter or Chrono. My peripheral gear is much better than my rifle to carry over to whatever system I upgrade to if the investment and dedication are worthwhile....once I know what I want.

I understand what you are saying about MV, I just didn't know which may be more important now. Specifically in my case during data generation and verification. There is definitely two sides to this coin and both have good arguments either way.

 

[HogsLife]

Thank you sir. I'm pretty much exactly where you suggested minus a weather meter or Chrono. My peripheral gear is much better than my rifle to carry over to whatever system I upgrade to if the investment and dedication are worthwhile....once I know what I want.

I understand what you are saying about MV, I just didn't know which may be more important now. Specifically in my case during data generation and verification. There is definitely two sides to this coin and both have good arguments either way.

Yeah 10-4. Chrono is important, but it becomes increasingly important when you start reloading / load development.

Don’t get too wrapped up in the gear.you actually need very little to get going. Get out and spend some money on training, dry fire, and shoot

 

[thelaststraw]

Yeah 10-4. Chrono is important, but it becomes increasingly important when you start reloading / load development.

Don’t get too wrapped up in the gear.you a crisply need very little to get going. Get out and spend some money on training, dry fire, and shoot

Gotcha, that's the sum of my original question. I didn't buy much more than required minimums, but got the upper end on quality like glass, bipod, etc.

Basically, I'm on the right track. I appreciate all the input and advice. Thank you gentlemen.

 

[Shootin Stuff]

Right now try and save as much $$$$ for components as you can. All the gadgets in the world won't help you shoot better if you can't actually go and shoot.

If you are using ballistics arc already, WeatherFlow bluetooth weather meter will link directly to the app and give you all the environmental information you need for a fraction of the price of a Kestrel.

If you aren't doing a lot of different load/rifle development then just borrow a chrono off someone or start a conversation and ask nicely next time you see someone at the range with one. Most people enjoy showing off their cool shit and you shouldn't have any issues finding someone who will let you use theirs.

A proper hands on course or even the online training on this site is probably the best initial investment you can make as you will learn the fundamentals and how to apply them correctly.

 

[ma smith]

Not to think too far out of the box, but
a .22LR trainer is a good use of $500

 

[HogsLife]

Not to think too far out of the box, but
a .22LR trainer is a good use of $500

yup 22LR, 223 and 308 all
Make great trainers

 

[thelaststraw]

Not to think too far out of the box, but
a .22LR trainer is a good use of $500

I've thought a little of a trainer but figured that...
1) would make the most sense to match the platform of my primary?
2) my current primary is only a placeholder until I figure what I want and need.
3) I'm sure my fundamentals can use some work. I don't want any bad habits to get reinforced.

I'm leaning toward a weather flow. This way I can get some solid dope to get hands on training and not waste people's time during a class. If I record my data with a full value 8 that's actually 12 if measured, I'll be jacked up from the start. Same goes for the head or tailwinds.

 

[HogsLife]

I've thought a little of a trainer but figured that...
1) would make the most sense to match the platform of my primary?
2) my current primary is only a placeholder until I figure what I want and need.
3) I'm sure my fundamentals can use some work. I don't want any bad habits to get reinforced.

I'm leaning toward a weather flow. This way I can get some solid dope to get hands on training and not waste people's time during a class. If I record my data with a full value 8 that's actually 12 if measured, I'll be jacked up from the start. Same goes for the head or tailwinds.

Get a bolt action 308. It’s gonna help make you aware of how recoil will exploit weaknesses in your position. 6mm isn’t gonna do that.

It’s also MUCH less forgiving in the wind. Little bit of wrong goes along way in regards to 308’s and in the wind. You’ll develop better wind reading / calls coming up on a 308.

great barrel life
Stupid easy to reload for
Tons of data on the 308
Readily available components. / ammo

It doesn’t need to be a stupid expensive one either. My first rifle out of the Corps was a $400 Rem 700 BDL-VS I picked up in a Wyoming Gun Store. H&S Stock, 22l Varmint barrel, BDL. No brakes. No DBM, no adjustability. Slapped a SS10x42 on it for $300band started reloading for it. Went out and competed with it as well.

Rifle would shoot .3’s or better all day long with 175 SMK’s and 44gn Varget. Doesn’t get any easier than that.

 

[MarkCO]

I've thought a little of a trainer but figured that...
1) would make the most sense to match the platform of my primary?
2) my current primary is only a placeholder until I figure what I want and need.
3) I'm sure my fundamentals can use some work. I don't want any bad habits to get reinforced.

I have a little Ruger American Predator in .243Win with a Boyds 1AT stock. I shoot 87s at 2800 fps and use a Burris MTAC 4.5-14 milrad and it is under $1K all in. The barrel life should be long, it is light and dang if it is not less forgiving of fundamental mistakes than any of my match rifles. If the barrel starts to open up past where it is a trainer benefit, I'll sell it, buy another for $450 and move the stock and scope over. It recoils a tad more than my match 6.5s with comps and suppressors. I don't buy into the concept of a trainer has to match your match rifle. Fundamentals are fundamentals. Almost all of our holds or dials are based on what we right down or a card, so even that does not make a difference. I also have a .22LR, it is a semi-auto and it is even less forgiving with wind calls, but no recoil management.

 

[theLBC]

how are you ranging your targets?

 

[thelaststraw]

The range I'm at has them at measured intervals and the regulars gave me the beta on what positions on the line are true.

The direction I'm heading is PRS, but I'm unsure on if I want to just participate casually with a gas gun or go all in with a new system. Currently been bitten harder by the bug than USPSA did. I just don't know what I want or need rifle wise (I'm sticking with what I have for a bit).The more essential peripheral gear I have now lessens the hurt when I go for a new setup when I know better what I like or works if that's the road I take.

I'm just trying to be proficient enough to not be a burden in a class. I actually just got a weatherflow and it is paying off already. Today the wind is coming from a rare direction and very gusty at the range and it's actually forcing some wind calls. Nothing big though since it's only to 600, but it's enough for some shift.

 

[Baron23]

"Essential gear for new guy?"​

Eh, someone else's credit card?

Sorry, thought it was funny and couldn't help myself. I have poor impulse control. LOL

 

[thelaststraw]

"Essential gear for new guy?"​

Eh, someone else's credit card?

Sorry, thought it was funny and couldn't help myself. I have poor impulse control. LOL

The same could be said for just about anyone in shooting sports. Lol

 

[theLBC]

The same could be said for just about anyone in shooting sports. Lol

i have been shooting handguns and shotguns for decades, and bought very little besides ammo to support those activities.
perhaps a holster or sight upgrade, but really very little.
otoh, since accidentally buying a precision gas gun on an impulse, omg!

 

[seansmd]

The one thing the chrono will tell you uniquely is the consistency of the MV wether you use factory or handload. You groups out through distance will as well but shooter error and environmentals will cloud that. Once you have confidence in the ammo consistency the MV in most cases will be changed to true to your known dope 600 and in, and your BC will be trued at farther distance.

Haven't used my chrono in a couple of years.

 

[thelaststraw]

i have been shooting handguns and shotguns for decades, and bought very little besides ammo to support those activities.
perhaps a holster or sight upgrade, but really very little.
otoh, since accidentally buying a precision gas gun on an impulse, omg!

Now that u mention it, all I bought as an "extra luxury" for USPSA was a comp tac holster, daa mag holders and a shooters connection belt....maybe $100 all together.

 

[HogsLife]

i have been shooting handguns and shotguns for decades, and bought very little besides ammo to support those activities.
perhaps a holster or sight upgrade, but really very little.
otoh, since accidentally buying a precision gas gun on an impulse, omg!

i have been shooting handguns and shotguns for decades, and bought very little besides ammo to support those activities.
perhaps a holster or sight upgrade, but really very little.
otoh, since accidentally buying a precision gas gun on an impulse, omg!

Impulse buys! Those are the best buys cuz sometimes you just gotta say f*** it and make that financially irresponsible decision. If your dont, you’ll never get that piece kit lol

me : won’t spend more than $7 on a tshirt, but will impulsively drop 4K I don’t have on an optic.

 

[ma smith]

me : won’t spend more than $7 on a tshirt, but will impulsively drop 4K I don’t have on an optic.

 

[308pirate]

Um, nothing? Someone needs some ballistic education or some word definition education. Sure it won't tell you an actual number, but saying it tells you nothing is just plain wrong.

So why don't you show us your correlation study between muzzle velocity and chamber pressure.

 

[acudaowner]

all you ever need is your rifle pony your and you .

 

[TxWelder35]

Still don’t have a kestrel and don’t plan on getting one anytime soon. I prefer my own verified dope, but I don’t shoot in drastically different environments either.

my Labradar is one of my favorite pieces of gear. Makes load development much easier and gives you tons of useful data about how your load and barrel are performing. Also no POI shift and messing with barrel harmonics like a magnetospeed. Much easier to set up and shoot different rifles past it also.

tried lots of bags, my precision underground elr bag is my favorite rear bag, and just got a tater tot for prs style shooting.

 

[thelaststraw]

I'm sticking to the gear I have currently and am going to a class in November. I'm just building all the verified dope I can out to 600(home range) and hit a match or two. Unfortunately it a 4+ hour drive in either direction to any match where I live. Good clubs from what I can tell, lots of talented shooters in general in the gulf coast.

 

[greentick]

Tagging in on this thread. Also edging into PRS a bit at a time. Lots of great info.

 

[thelaststraw]

Great, I'm glad all my questions and the answers that everyone has taken time to provide can help someone besides me.