Expected accuracy from AR

[Southwind]

I have read several other threads regarding expected accuracy from an ar15, but have a couple other questions and am in need of some advise. I had a bare bones M4 style rifle with the only upgrade being a JP trigger. I went through several different types of bullet/powder combo's and could not get it to shoot better than 1.5 moa at 100yds. Recently, I installed a free float handguard and a Magpul CTR stock, and while I love the feel of the new upgrades I still have not been able to achieve any better accuracy. I made sure to torque the new handguard to factory recommended specs so I should be good there. The scope has shot good on other rifles so I know that is not the issue.

My question: is that the best accuracy I should expect from an M4 contour barrel?

I am considering upgrading barrels to a 16" mid contour barrel with carbine length gas system so all my other hardware will fit it. Yankee Hill makes one that is fluted so it would not add a lot of weight to the gun. I am wanting to keep it as small and light as possible, but still be decently accurate.

I have a Mark12 style rifle and it shoots lights out, but it is a bit on the heavy side to be lugging around all day and a bit to nice to keep in the truck when at the farm.

Do you think barrel upgrade would tighten groups up to MOA'ish?

thx, Steve

 

[Sterling Shooter]

I only know what I've seen. This is good hits are probable on a static E target at 600 meters using a center of mass hold shooting Mk 262 from an M4 scoped with an ACOG by a shooter knowing a little about marksmanship and wind favor. This seems to be accurate enough to get the job done, while satisfying other needs. I also know a match conditioned M4 would get a better result, but what's the point. The M4 is not authorized for competitions that would require such accuracy and even if it was the M16A4 would be more worthy of match conditioning.

If you are appraising accuracy by grouping think about this, the goal is line of sight and bullet impact intersecting where the resulting value in any form of measurement is zero. Now, you cannot likely do this. Instead, what you can likely do is produce a group, each shot in the group being somewhere off where you aimed. Since these shots are misplaced it indicates a problem with something or some things not being consistent. Now, if you have a gun that is not broken, and match grade ammunition, what is most likely the biggest contributor to inconsistency is you. This means you might want to work on skills to allow for better all around appraisal of you, the gun, and ammunition.

 

[dudeinmo]

This is with an ARP barrel, free float handguard and handloaded ammo. Standard AR trigger and cheap 3-12 power scope. Nicer trigger and better optics I would not have as many flyers as I get.
the flyer still keeps it around 1/2" at 100 yards. 18" barrel though.

So to me, the barrel makes all the difference. I shot a standard M4 profile with stock trigger and iron sites and keep it at about 1 - 1.5 inches at 100 yards.

 

[samnev]

The M4 contour barrels that I have shot or owned over the years have all been around 1.5 moa with decent optics and ammunition. A heavier contour barrel may or may not get you into 1 moa. It's a gamble imo. I'd stick with your M4 as is since you already have a Mk 12 style rifle that shoots lights out.

 

[Southwind]

Thanks for the replies. If I do re-barrel it with a 16-18" barrel, is there any disadvantage to getting one made for a carbine length gas system? If I could use my free-float tube and gas block, that would allow me a bit more money to spend on a higher quality barrel.

 

[Graham]

Expected accuracy from AR

My question: is that the best accuracy I should expect from an M4 contour barrel?

I'm not sure what you mean by 'decently' accurate or "MOA'ish"

The answer is: It depends; mostly on the barrel.

 

[Scottmilk9]

I'm not sure what you mean by 'decently' accurate or "MOA'ish"

The answer is: It depends; mostly on the barrel.

I'll add to Mr. Grahams post: good trigger and good barrel are an absolute must for shooting sub-moa out of an AR or other semi-autos for most people. Good ammo is another key. Also, shooting a semi auto is much different than shooting a bolt gun to obtain the accuracy that is desired.

 

[groundhogbuster]

The Barrel is the Heart of the gun. I've had M4's that easily shoot sub moa, but most factory barrels that are CM are 1.5-2.0moa sticks. Chrome lined, Mil Spec barrels aren't gonna shoot with a 416SS barrel. The chamber is also a big issue. I like the WYLDE chamber for accuracy much better than the standard .556". Wes at MSTN I'll guarantee can get it to shoot with a Noveske barrel, and his handy work. I use Wilson (RRA) or Noveske barrels for all my own builds. It's gonna be impossible to get "everything" you want from one gun, especially in an AR.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

I'll add to Mr. Grahams post: good trigger and good barrel are an absolute must for shooting sub-moa out of an AR or other semi-autos for most people. Good ammo is another key. Also, shooting a semi auto is much different than shooting a bolt gun to obtain the accuracy that is desired.

Can you give details describing "much different than shooting a bolt gun to obtain the accuracy that is desired"? I shoot both action types and I do not perceive there is anything I address differently building the position. Seems to me the elements and factors of a steady position are universal to any action. I shoot a match conditioned commercial equivalent of the M16A2, as well as a Remington 700 with an HS Precision non adjustable marksman stock; and, the relationship, using either gun, I build between myself, gun, and ground to transfer the stability of the ground into the position appears to me not to be different. While shouldering the rifle I align sights, adjust NPA for desired hold, bring my focus to front sight, pull trigger smoothly and follow through with trigger depressed until recoil subsides.

 

[GH41]

Thanks for the replies. If I do re-barrel it with a 16-18" barrel, is there any disadvantage to getting one made for a carbine length gas system? If I could use my free-float tube and gas block, that would allow me a bit more money to spend on a higher quality barrel.

Don't forget about the possibility of needing to change the buffer and/or spring if you go mid or rifle length. It sounds to me like you need to get a 16" carbine gas barrel. You are going to have to spend $400+ on a barrel to have any thing close to a guaranteed sub MOA AR. GH

 

[19Scout77]

You are going to have to spend $400+ on a barrel to have any thing close to a guaranteed sub MOA AR. GH

Wanna bet?

 

[GH41]

Wanna bet?

Remember I said.... "You are going to have to spend $400+ on a barrel to have any thing close to a guaranteed sub MOA AR". I'm sure there are many $100 sub MOA barrels if you are lucky enough to find one! GH

 

[ZombieMonkey]

As long as you are being consistent on your end then I would probably start looking at a different barrel if sub MOA is what you want. Just because it is an M4 contour doesn't mean shit as you are not guaranteed to be getting a known quality unless you're looking at some of the various match or better quality barrels. Most of what is out there in M4 contour barrels are just your run of the mill mass produced chrome lined barrels that will deliver an acceptable level of accuracy in the 1-2 MOA area.

 

[tickled pink]

I am hoping for less than 1/2" 5 shot groups with ny new WOA 18" varmint upper with 1 in 7" twist which it fluted under hand guard and on end of barrel. It also has a Geissele SSA-E trigger installed.

White Oak Armament


GEE!!! I got my reloads completed for the ladder test and now it is raining. I'll have to do it during the week or next weekend.

I'll post my results if the test works out OK.

 

[paramedic]

In my experience quality barrel, trigger and optics = accuracy. I wasted many hours and much money banking on only one of the three. If you are lucky one in ten bargain AR's will be sub-moa and usually only with select ammo. If you want accuracy spend the up front money because down the road a barrel swap will put you right back to accurate for minimal expense. That is what is sweet about the wonderful AR15.

 

[Matno]

You are going to have to spend $400+ on a barrel to have any thing close to a guaranteed sub MOA AR. GH

Um, Rainier select barrels have a money back sub MOA guarantee and they're in the $200 range. Even their match and ultra-match barrels are under $400.

 

[MLC]

Don't forget about the possibility of needing to change the buffer and/or spring if you go mid or rifle length. It sounds to me like you need to get a 16" carbine gas barrel. You are going to have to spend $400+ on a barrel to have any thing close to a guaranteed sub MOA AR. GH

I bought a 16" barrel on here for $275 that shoots well inside my wind calls over 500 yards.
Cold bore 1000 yard hit last time I had it out(on a full size E type).
I agree with your sentiment though as there are lots of "barrel makers" in the AR realm that are 100% hype and totally hit and miss.

To the OP, are you shooting factory ammo?

 

[Scottmilk9]

Can you give details describing "much different than shooting a bolt gun to obtain the accuracy that is desired"? I shoot both action types and I do not perceive there is anything I address differently building the position. Seems to me the elements and factors of a steady position are universal to any action. I shoot a match conditioned commercial equivalent of the M16A2, as well as a Remington 700 with an HS Precision non adjustable marksman stock; and, the relationship, using either gun, I build between myself, gun, and ground to transfer the stability of the ground into the position appears to me not to be different. While shouldering the rifle I align sights, adjust NPA for desired hold, bring my focus to front sight, pull trigger smoothly and follow through with trigger depressed until recoil subsides.

Sterling,
As a coach, high master and all of your other accomplishments, you might not have the perceived difference from shooting a bolt gun and a semi-auto, but for someone who is new to the semi-auto platform, staying in the recoil, follow through is much more important than with a bolt gun. Your comment about building a stable platform between yourself and the gun is spot on, but as you know from the hundreds if not thousands of competitions, everyone has a different method of getting behind their gun, some are canted, some lift a knee to take their stomach/sternum off the ground, others are straight behind their rifle, so to you, there isn't a difference, but again to a newcomer there is a hell of a difference between shooting the two types of actions.
To add to this, I have had customers complain they couldn't get better than 2 MOA out of a semi auto 243 i built them, after receiving it back with the same ammo, i shot under half an inch and this was their first semi-auto. How would you explain this?
I do really like your last sentence(minus the front sight) and if you don't mind, I'd like to use this in a teaching method.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Sterling,
As a coach, high master and all of your other accomplishments, you might not have the perceived difference from shooting a bolt gun and a semi-auto, but for someone who is new to the semi-auto platform, staying in the recoil, follow through is much more important than with a bolt gun. Your comment about building a stable platform between yourself and the gun is spot on, but as you know from the hundreds if not thousands of competitions, everyone has a different method of getting behind their gun, some are canted, some lift a knee to take their stomach/sternum off the ground, others are straight behind their rifle, so to you, there isn't a difference, but again to a newcomer there is a hell of a difference between shooting the two types of actions.
To add to this, I have had customers complain they couldn't get better than 2 MOA out of a semi auto 243 i built them, after receiving it back with the same ammo, i shot under half an inch and this was their first semi-auto. How would you explain this?
I do really like your last sentence(minus the front sight) and if you don't mind, I'd like to use this in a teaching method.

I think I understand what you are saying, good results with a bolt gun might be possible without the accommodations required for the same sort of results using a gas gun. In other words, technique imperfection may not be as forgiving with a gas gun. In my case, I actually fit my AR better than my bolt gun so consistency with it is easy to discern; but, for those who have not learned how to fit their AR's, or those that use bolt gun technique, like grip, on their AR, I see how what you say could be a predictable outcome.